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fearn48
Joined: 07 May 2008
Posts: 26
Location: Reading, England
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 Link Posted: Sat Jan 31, 2015 10:05 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks Curt,
That's ingesting how you used the 1/2 x 1" as a batten to hold the insulation in place. That would work a treat for me too and loads better than the chicken wire idea that I'd come up with. Burning the screws hols into the cloth is a great idea to. Was this so they didn't fray over time?
I look forward to the next phase of your build.
Thanks
Peter
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If only you could see what I've seen with your eyes!
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Curt Palme
CRT Tech
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 24305
Location: Langley, BC
TV/Projector: All of them!
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| Link Posted: Sun Feb 01, 2015 4:34 pm Post subject: |
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We are just winging it. I'm most pleased with the deadness that the insulation does to the room.
Had a home recording studio guy over the other day, and he was pretty impressed overall. Said it needs more bass though..
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huggy
Joined: 02 Aug 2008
Posts: 927
Location: Melbourne,Australia
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| Link Posted: Wed Feb 04, 2015 7:49 pm Post subject: |
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Curt
Do have proper C elements installed on both pjs?
One thing I noticed on mine was the incredible difference in brightness before and after installation, I'm curious as to what percentage of light loss one loses from the red and green C's installed.
Dave
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fearn48
Joined: 07 May 2008
Posts: 26
Location: Reading, England
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| Link Posted: Thu Feb 05, 2015 5:27 am Post subject: |
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Well curt,
Your Setup is already better than some commercial Cinemas I've been to. Just last week, I was at one that had an echo. When I clapped my hands near the screen channels the decay was several seconds. It had a poor sub channel to, but that was just a bad EQ.
How many sub speakers do you have? You could try the trick of putting it in the sitting position and walking around the room to find the loud spot. If I lived closer I'd give you a base tap. I have a few I collected from the same place as the echophon. It might help reduce any standing waves and improve the base response.
Seeing how you've made you Cinema has convinced the girlfriend that a larger house with a family room could be converted easily into a duel purpose Cinemas to. She won't let me paint the lounge black, but a duel purpose room is another matter.😊
Thanks
Peter
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gasser
Joined: 31 May 2012
Posts: 40
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| Link Posted: Thu Feb 05, 2015 12:24 pm Post subject: C's |
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Huggy is C a colored filter, or a coupler?
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Curt Palme
CRT Tech
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 24305
Location: Langley, BC
TV/Projector: All of them!
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| Link Posted: Thu Feb 05, 2015 3:16 pm Post subject: |
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No proper C elements.. yet. I am getting in a 400 hour Cine 9, and am going to set it up on the floor for a triple stack.
I am hell bent to find why the two sets are drifting in convergence, but in random areas of the screen, over random periods of time. By themselves, each projector is bang on, but the stack shows that they drift ever so slightly from each other. Cliff's doesn't do this, and it's annoying.
By setting up a third projector, I should be able to find out which one is drifting, and then either repair/replace the card, or if they all drift with each other, I may in the end pull them down and put up G90s. Don't get me wrong, I LOOOOVE the image of the 909/Cine 9, but this drifting is driving me nuts...
The bass is much better since I put the ceiling panels up with insulation behind them.
I had dinner with Mr Ro Co the other night, and it turns out he's heavily into speaker designing, more so than he's posted here. We had a good talk about bass, and even Macgyver suggested to put in a 2 way crossover, to pull the bass off the L-R speakers rather than the sub output. More control, and more adjustment of the crossover point. Mr Ro Co suggested to cross over VERY low, like 70Hz or so, so there's still more playing to be done.
Working on the ceiling/wall panels right now. The remaining black cloth is here, so perhaps that can get finished this weekend. Will post more pix soon!
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Spanky Ham
Joined: 22 Mar 2006
Posts: 5643
Location: Comedy Central
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| Link Posted: Thu Feb 05, 2015 4:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Curt Palme wrote: | No proper C elements.. yet. I am getting in a 400 hour Cine 9, and am going to set it up on the floor for a triple stack.
I am hell bent to find why the two sets are drifting in convergence, but in random areas of the screen, over random periods of time. By themselves, each projector is bang on, but the stack shows that they drift ever so slightly from each other. Cliff's doesn't do this, and it's annoying.
By setting up a third projector, I should be able to find out which one is drifting, and then either repair/replace the card, or if they all drift with each other, I may in the end pull them down and put up G90s. Don't get me wrong, I LOOOOVE the image of the 909/Cine 9, but this drifting is driving me nuts...
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G90s!!!! Admit it, the CIR mafia has gotten to you.
| Quote: |
The bass is much better since I put the ceiling panels up with insulation behind them.
I had dinner with Mr Ro Co the other night, and it turns out he's heavily into speaker designing, more so than he's posted here. We had a good talk about bass, and even Macgyver suggested to put in a 2 way crossover, to pull the bass off the L-R speakers rather than the sub output. More control, and more adjustment of the crossover point. Mr Ro Co suggested to cross over VERY low, like 70Hz or so, so there's still more playing to be done.
Working on the ceiling/wall panels right now. The remaining black cloth is here, so perhaps that can get finished this weekend. Will post more pix soon! |
You hooked up with the infamous (and curiously absent) RoCo? 
Steve knows his audio. IIRC he really likes concentric drivers.
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Curt Palme
CRT Tech
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 24305
Location: Langley, BC
TV/Projector: All of them!
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| Link Posted: Thu Feb 05, 2015 4:44 pm Post subject: |
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Nah, I just know how little his sets drift. Mine aren't anywhere close, and that's unacceptable!
Yeah, when I open my doors, I want a bunch of critique, but I think I'll have it dialed in pretty well.
THe last of my acoustical panel covering fabric showed up, so the room ceilings and walls will be BLACK very soon!
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mr_ro_co
Joined: 08 May 2006
Posts: 1643
Location: Santa Fe NM
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| Link Posted: Thu Feb 05, 2015 4:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Spanky Ham wrote: | You hooked up with the infamous (and curiously absent) RoCo?
Steve knows his audio. IIRC he really likes concentric drivers. |
Been way too busy with work and other various unrelenting demands on my time. Yes, scored some nice lenses for my pjs from Curt the other night in sketchy looking trunk swap transaction in an Albuquerque parking lot. Basically after dining with him, Curt said, "Hey man. Want some sweet ass glass?"
Turns out what he meant was HFQ900s...
I do really like concentric drivers (like the Tannoy Dual-Concentric with the tulip waveguide) particularly for home theater because they maintain consistent spectral balance over a very wide listener/viewer area. This doesn't mean they don't have their own downsides. For the best results from dedicated two-channel audio, I prefer a vertical symmetric array, typically.
Steve
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Curt Palme
CRT Tech
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 24305
Location: Langley, BC
TV/Projector: All of them!
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| Link Posted: Thu Feb 05, 2015 4:52 pm Post subject: |
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| mr_ro_co wrote: |
Yes, scored some nice lenses for my pjs from Curt the other night in sketchy looking trunk swap transaction in an Albuquerque parking lot. Basically after dining with him, Curt said, "Hey man. Want some sweet ass glass?"
Turns out what he meant was HFQ900s...
Steve |
that's freakin' awesome! 
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Spanky Ham
Joined: 22 Mar 2006
Posts: 5643
Location: Comedy Central
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| Link Posted: Thu Feb 05, 2015 5:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Curt Palme wrote: | Nah, I just know how little his sets drift. Mine aren't anywhere close, and that's unacceptable!
Yeah, when I open my doors, I want a bunch of critique, but I think I'll have it dialed in pretty well.
THe last of my acoustical panel covering fabric showed up, so the room ceilings and walls will be BLACK very soon! |
You could try Marquees.
I have thought about alternate ways to achieve total black. Are you painting the walls or covering the walls with fabric?
| mr_ro_co wrote: |
Been way too busy with work and other various unrelenting demands on my time. Yes, scored some nice lenses for my pjs from Curt the other night in sketchy looking trunk swap transaction in an Albuquerque parking lot. Basically after dining with him, Curt said, "Hey man. Want some sweet ass glass?"
Turns out what he meant was HFQ900s...
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That's cool! So now you have something like 10 Marquees with 900 lenses. 
[/quote]
I do really like concentric drivers (like the Tannoy Dual-Concentric with the tulip waveguide) particularly for home theater because they maintain consistent spectral balance over a very wide listener/viewer area. This doesn't mean they don't have their own downsides. For the best results from dedicated two-channel audio, I prefer a vertical symmetric array, typically.
Steve[/quote]
I remember how you liked Seaton's speakers at Dr. Dogs. I have been going back and forth on the diysoundgroups Volts and SEOS speakers. The Volts are Eminence sourced concentric drivers.
I haven't heard any arrays that I can recall. Maybe at Cedia. I know Floyd Toole spoke highly of the constant beamwidth transducer. The price for a pair isn't outrageous all things considered, but I wouldn't spend the money without hearing them first.
http://www.parts-express.com/project-gallery-speaker-project-cbt-36-circular-arc-line-array-loudspeaker
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Curt Palme
CRT Tech
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 24305
Location: Langley, BC
TV/Projector: All of them!
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| Link Posted: Thu Feb 05, 2015 6:06 pm Post subject: |
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Combo platter of paint and panels. Ceiling and back wall is completely panels. I've got that teak wall unit running along one side. I'll paint the wall around it, and then Barb is making curtains for the side with the window, patio door and fireplace.
Steve is saying that he prefers Marquees to G90s and 909s, but I really haven't seen the sharpness from them, even on a well set up Marquee. Mind you, the few 9500s with HFQ900/HD10E lenses DID seem sharper than the stock units with GT17 lenses. I WILL do some playing with lenses once I'm fully set up, as I think I will have 2 sets of HFQs to put on my 909s. Right now I've got the G90 HD10F lenses on both 909s.
I really want to know once and for all if the HFQ/HD10Es are all they are cracked up to be.
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ElTopo
Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 1608
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| Link Posted: Thu Feb 05, 2015 6:28 pm Post subject: |
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A 909 with New LUG's and HQF900 =
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Curt Palme
CRT Tech
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 24305
Location: Langley, BC
TV/Projector: All of them!
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| Link Posted: Thu Feb 05, 2015 6:34 pm Post subject: |
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More acoustic panel details. These pix should explain it all. Pay no attention to the balding guy...
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ecrabb
Forum Moderator
Joined: 13 Mar 2006
Posts: 15909
Location: Utah
TV/Projector: JVC RS40, Epson 5010
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| Link Posted: Thu Feb 05, 2015 6:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Spanky Ham wrote: | | I remember how you liked Seaton's speakers at Dr. Dogs. I have been going back and forth on the diysoundgroups Volts and SEOS speakers. The Volts are Eminence sourced concentric drivers. |
I'm probably going to use Volts as surrounds, but I'm definitely going to build a pair first and see what I think of them. It would be awesome if I liked them as mains, but I have a funny feeling my taste for MOAR will win out and I'll go with larger mains.
I've heard line-source arrays twice now, and I think it's the pinnacle of sound reproduction - if you have the space and budget.
The first time was in the Wisdom room at CEDIA a few years go. Mind. Blown. HUGE sound. Massive. WALL of sound. Even though it was filling a giant room full of sound, and plenty loud, it was crystal clear and sounded so effortless. I'd dare say it was the best CEDIA demo I've ever heard, and some of the best sound I've ever heard. Ever. I'd give up a body part to have a system that sounded even remotely like that demo, but unless I win the lottery, it ain't gonna happen. Between the Wisdom speakers and the Lab.gruppen amps, I think that system crossed well over the six-figure threshold.
Then, I heard a pair of LS9's at a shootout, and they were really, really impressive. It was a blind listening test. They played a bunch of clips on a pair of speakers, then switched speakers and did it again. There were 5 or 6 pairs of speakers, and I liked the LS9's the best, though I think Mark's Catalysts and whatever Jeff had there (Noesis?) were awesome, too. The line-source arrays are actually mind-boggling. It's just so weird to hear real, honest-to-god, deep bass come out of a bunch of drivers the size of which you usually associate with a mid-range speaker. The only problem with them is they're still way, way out of my price range, extremely difficult to DIY, and the size is a challenge, too.
SC
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mr_ro_co
Joined: 08 May 2006
Posts: 1643
Location: Santa Fe NM
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| Link Posted: Thu Feb 05, 2015 7:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Spanky Ham wrote: | I remember how you liked Seaton's speakers at Dr. Dogs. I have been going back and forth on the diysoundgroups Volts and SEOS speakers. The Volts are Eminence sourced concentric drivers.
I haven't heard any arrays that I can recall. Maybe at Cedia. I know Floyd Toole spoke highly of the constant beamwidth transducer. The price for a pair isn't outrageous all things considered, but I wouldn't spend the money without hearing them first.
http://www.parts-express.com/project-gallery-speaker-project-cbt-36-circular-arc-line-array-loudspeaker |
I really like Seaton's speakers. I think they are the best production home theater speakers out there.
When I say "symmetric vertical array," I mean HF transducer in the middle at or near ear level straddled above and below by identical drivers in pairs covering progressively lower frequency bands as additional pairs are added to meet bandwidth goals. Most people incorrectly refer to this arrangement as "D'Appolito," which is merely one type of execution of a symmetric vertical array. Symmetric vertical arrays have numerous advantages over other driver arrangements. One thing they do is mimic a true point source, but when you use a concentric driver like the B&C in Seaton's or the Tannoys in my current speakers, those are true point sources and have no vertical interference pattern (through the crossover region between it an its HF driver) and can produce very desirable dispersion characteristics. This is really useful for the LCR speakers in home theater environments with the usual group of disparate seating locations.
The pros solve this in commercial theaters with large format JBLs, in guess what? Symmetric vertical arrays (WHW). The audience is much further away, though, and the speaker output is really well integrated at those distances.
Line arrays like you are referring have their own interesting features and advantages and I've heard some really good ones for sure. I actually think they are best applied as surround speakers, believe it or not, monopole or dipole. I think Seaton should take his coax driver and put it in a dipole line array for his surrounds. Then not only would he have the ideal characteristics for the surrounds, he would be precisely matching the spectral balance of his mains.
Best,
Steve
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mr_ro_co
Joined: 08 May 2006
Posts: 1643
Location: Santa Fe NM
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| Link Posted: Thu Feb 05, 2015 7:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Curt Palme wrote: | Steve is saying that he prefers Marquees to G90s and 909s, but I really haven't seen the sharpness from them, even on a well set up Marquee. Mind you, the few 9500s with HFQ900/HD10E lenses DID seem sharper than the stock units with GT17 lenses. I WILL do some playing with lenses once I'm fully set up, as I think I will have 2 sets of HFQs to put on my 909s. Right now I've got the G90 HD10F lenses on both 909s.
I really want to know once and for all if the HFQ/HD10Es are all they are cracked up to be. |
Spent a lot of time with the BG808 but ain't never seen a Cine 9 / 909. The Marquee probably can be as sharp as a G90 but it takes a lot of work. What I prefer about the Marquee is the color and dynamic range of the image over what I've seen the G90 do.
Steve
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huggy
Joined: 02 Aug 2008
Posts: 927
Location: Melbourne,Australia
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| Link Posted: Thu Feb 05, 2015 7:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Curt Palme wrote: | No proper C elements.. yet. I am getting in a 400 hour Cine 9, and am going to set it up on the floor for a triple stack.
I am hell bent to find why the two sets are drifting in convergence, but in random areas of the screen, over random periods of time. By themselves, each projector is bang on, but the stack shows that they drift ever so slightly from each other. Cliff's doesn't do this, and it's annoying.
By setting up a third projector, I should be able to find out which one is drifting, and then either repair/replace the card, or if they all drift with each other, I may in the end pull them down and put up G90s. Don't get me wrong, I LOOOOVE the image of the 909/Cine 9, but this drifting is driving me nuts...
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Mine were doing this, so was my friends one, his went away after a while, I revisited my geometry and convergence making sure everything is as close to mid as possible, it seems much much better now. There is still slight misconvergence in certain areas as you described (can't be seen from sitting position) but it is still annoying. I'm thinking possibly temperature related but have no idea how to test or regulate it.
Dave
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Curt Palme
CRT Tech
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 24305
Location: Langley, BC
TV/Projector: All of them!
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| Link Posted: Thu Feb 05, 2015 7:52 pm Post subject: |
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That's what I'm afraid of. Many settings are within 45-55%, esp the point convergence settings. Will keep working on it..
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Spanky Ham
Joined: 22 Mar 2006
Posts: 5643
Location: Comedy Central
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| Link Posted: Fri Feb 06, 2015 4:59 am Post subject: |
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I believe the Wisdom demo was considered one of the best at Cedia this year. I went to it and thought it was great, but I have no idea what they were running in there. I think someone mentioned it was over $100k, but so was the JBL.
One thing I have to remember is Atmos. I will probably buy a pair of SEOS speakers to try out, but I think the Volts could be used in an Atmos enabled speaker. I can't ceiling mount speakers, so this is my only way into Atmos.
Of course, I could just go with the Pioneer Atmos speakers with the concentric driver. I spoke to Andrew Jones briefly at Cedia and told him I was impressed with his demo. Some others were less than impressed, but I guess I have tin ears. He did seem particularly proud of his concentric driver that he is using in these speakers.
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