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4K HD? End of the line for CRT?
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stridsvognen
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PostLink    Posted: Sat Sep 13, 2014 12:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote


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CasetheCorvetteman wrote:
Not sure what you mean there. Do you mean set it 4:4:4?


i mean blu ray is 4:2:0 on the disc, and then upsampled to 4:2:2.

If you have 4:2:0 UHD you have 4 times the color resolution of blu ray, blu ray resolution is 1 color for 4 pixels.

So i wonder how much effect the 4x color resolution have, and what a full native 1080P 4:4:4 would look like, and forget about upsampled 4:2:0. And is UHD displayed 4:2:0, or is it also upsampled to 4:2:2 before its displayed.?

How much of the improvement you see are related to luma resolution and croma resolution.?
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CasetheCorvetteman




Joined: 09 Nov 2008
Posts: 6319
Location: Australia


PostLink    Posted: Sat Sep 13, 2014 1:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No idea, i havent really looked that far into it. This monitor is UHD at 60Hz though where as alot of the TVs out there are only 30Hz
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Spanky Ham




Joined: 22 Mar 2006
Posts: 5643
Location: Comedy Central


PostLink    Posted: Sat Sep 13, 2014 2:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CasetheCorvetteman wrote:
Spanky Ham wrote:
Case,
So you are saying you can see a difference at 120" distance on a 28" monitor?

Wolf,
I believe the US isn't getting the 300. There has been mention of another pj, but that is all I have.

Yes, i am, i thought i made that reasonably clear so im not sure why you would question it. And its obvious to my eyes. Id be really amazed if no one else can see the difference.

I have compared using a slide show of UHD still images.


I wanted clarification, because you say you see a difference at basically 5 screen widths. If everything is equal, then the best I have heard is around 2 screen widths. I think Joe Kane said in his testing it was less than that.
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CasetheCorvetteman




Joined: 09 Nov 2008
Posts: 6319
Location: Australia


PostLink    Posted: Sat Sep 13, 2014 9:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hmmm... So to make it really clear, i can repeat it again for you if you would like? Laughing

Its not just me that saw it as easily better though too Spanky, as i said previous page.

Rather than take "what you heard" or "what Joe Kane said" as probable gospel, you really need to see it for yourself and speak from your own experience. Whether or not you see the same step up as i do is somewhat irrelevant, because right now youre relying on the experience ( or theories ) of others rather than your own eyes.

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Spanky Ham




Joined: 22 Mar 2006
Posts: 5643
Location: Comedy Central


PostLink    Posted: Sun Sep 14, 2014 8:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You are correct. I do need to see it for myself. Of course my eyes aren't as good as a lot of people.

Now as Crabb said, was everything equal with the only variable the resolution? You said you have two different monitors. Were they both calibrated? What was the source material?
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CasetheCorvetteman




Joined: 09 Nov 2008
Posts: 6319
Location: Australia


PostLink    Posted: Mon Sep 15, 2014 12:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Three, one was not mine, two were IPS and one was calibrated, the UHD is a TN panel and operating straight from the box.

I said what the source material was before, but it was UHD still images downloaded from a few web pages. A couple of them can be seen in this thread.

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ecrabb
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Joined: 13 Mar 2006
Posts: 15909
Location: Utah

TV/Projector: JVC RS40, Epson 5010


PostLink    Posted: Mon Sep 15, 2014 5:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Spanky Ham wrote:
CasetheCorvetteman wrote:
Spanky Ham wrote:
Case,
So you are saying you can see a difference at 120" distance on a 28" monitor?

Wolf,
I believe the US isn't getting the 300. There has been mention of another pj, but that is all I have.

Yes, i am, i thought i made that reasonably clear so im not sure why you would question it. And its obvious to my eyes. Id be really amazed if no one else can see the difference.

I have compared using a slide show of UHD still images.


I wanted clarification, because you say you see a difference at basically 5 screen widths. If everything is equal, then the best I have heard is around 2 screen widths. I think Joe Kane said in his testing it was less than that.


I think where a lot of the confusion starts is when people read others' opinions, then restate them, usually because they were somewhat imprecise (at best) or unqualified (meaning, not enough information to then make judgements). I'm not picking on you Spanky… Really I'm just pointing out that we all have to be really careful about reading too much into stuff like what 4k looks like at different screen widths, regardless of what somebody like Joe Kane says about it, because it really depends on the context, and also what exactly he was referring to when he said that. For example, did he say that the difference between 1080p and 4k was undetectable beyond two screen-widths, or just that it became more difficult to see the difference? Which two displays? Which screen? Whose eye? His, or a panel's? See what I mean about qualifications?

For instance, the Carlton Bale visual acuity charts are often-quoted, and just as often, misunderstood then misrepresented. What many still do when they look at his charts, is to mistakenly interpret each resolution's lines as hard limits or barriers, when nothing could be further from the truth. The lines are a plot of standard visual acuity vs. screen size resolution and viewing angle. Even though they're labeled "Full benefit of (insert resolution) starts to become noticeable", those giant wedges between the lines are continua - gradients. If you look them, that entire range is labeled "starts to…" even though it runs right into the next line where "full benefit" is plotted.

The reason I even chimed in on this is because I'm passionate about this issue. It's so bizarre to me that the home theater community - a bunch of enthusiasts - is often quick to dismiss a huge game-changing technological advancement like UHD. I hear people say, "Bah, totally unnecessary" or "worthless at normal screen sizes or viewing distances.". WTF? We're enthusiasts! This should be as exciting as when HD came along! This is huge! Yeah, I get that selfishly, people are annoyed that their projectors (both CRT and most digitals) will be essentially obsolete, but hey - time and technology march on. Personally, I'm excited. Bring it on!

Back to Joe Kane… I'd question how and in what context he stated what you're saying he stated. The reason is that in my old theater, with my 8-foot-wide screen, if I leaned forward in my chair from 12 feet (1.5 screen widths) to about 10 feet (1.25 screen widths), I could see individual 1080p pixels - and that's with the JVC's high fill rate and relative softness. When I went to my back row (16 feet/2 screen widths), then of course I couldn't see pixels or anything anymore, but I sure as hell would have seen a massive difference between 1080p and 4k.

Using desktop "retina" displays for comparison, at three screen widths from my computer, I can easily see pixels and aliasing. No doubt even at well over four-plus screen-widths, it's very easy to see the difference between a retina and non-retina - even if we can't resolve the resolution fully. Why? Because even if we're sitting far enough away that we're well below where the image is "fully-resolved" or further back from where visual acuity would tell us the "full benefit is visible", we can still tell the high-res image is much better.

Here's the real key. Everybody talks about where the "full benefit is noticeable." Why? It's a stupid target. Why? Because that's where our eyes are resolve the SAME resolution as the display. Essentially that means "we can see the pixels". Why on God's green earth is that our target? Our display should be far, far better than our eyes can resolve! That's how we're going to create an image that resembles looking out a window! If our goal is most accurately creating reality, then the goal should be an image resolution that far exceeds our visual acuity at normal viewing distances. 1080p isn't even close; it barely makes the cut. 4k delivers though, and it's what I want.

SC


Last edited by ecrabb on Mon Sep 15, 2014 11:55 pm; edited 2 times in total
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CasetheCorvetteman




Joined: 09 Nov 2008
Posts: 6319
Location: Australia


PostLink    Posted: Mon Sep 15, 2014 11:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Im not picking on anyone either, but yes i feel that has been an issue, and one i too have been guilty of in the past.
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RUNCO DTV991 LC ( NEC XG 852 LC ) 100" 4:3 screen, H/K AVR 5.1...
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