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Spanky Ham
Joined: 22 Mar 2006 Posts: 5643 Location: Comedy Central
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Link Posted: Sun Jul 27, 2014 5:09 pm Post subject: |
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Jeff,
Are you using this thread to find a center channel you can buy. Some of the stuff I have heard is outside the price range of most everyone here. I have only heard Seaton's system twice and it is impressive. I haven't heard it in a couple of years, but the JBL system was considered excellent. I believe they were/are licensing Yate's software.
Now as for something affordable, I think the Steve and Steve show have nailed it. Thanks to Crabb, I have spent to much time looking at diysoundgroups SEOS waveguide speakers. They seem to be highly regarded at most of these GTs.
The one caveat I would have right now is if you have any interest in the new Dolby Atmos at home. It will require ceiling speakers or upward firing box speakers.
Of course, if your room sucks then you really need to get that taken care of first.
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jeffslife
Joined: 17 Apr 2010 Posts: 4181 Location: ohio usa
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Link Posted: Sun Jul 27, 2014 7:49 pm Post subject: |
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Really I was just curious. I see so much stuff out there and am amazed at some of the prices. Once I lived behind a stereo shop and could try different speakers, kinda test drive so to speak. I was really surprised by how little of a difference there was between the middle of the road stuff and the higher end stuff. Don't get me wrong you could hear the difference but the difference wasn't worth (to me anyway) the huge cost difference. So many times I saw people do an A B test with their back to the speakers and they couldn't pick out the high end stuff, some even preferred the middle of the road stuff when they couldn't see the speakers. What really threw me after all that was that they would buy the more expensive speaker ANYWAY.
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Spanky Ham
Joined: 22 Mar 2006 Posts: 5643 Location: Comedy Central
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Link Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2014 1:21 am Post subject: |
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Yeah, it is definitely a jungle out there. The higher end you go multiplies the BS factor. It is why I prefer the DIY route. I understand the free time/cost ratio, but I think one can achieve high end performance for a more modest budget. That is why I suggested the diysoundgroup speakers. I was looking at the Cinema 88 for around $300. You can even buy a flat pack if you don't want to cut the pieces yourself.
I think you said you never hang out at AVS, but there seems to be a hot bed of DIY groups in the Philly, Chicago, and Seattle areas. You could probably get a good idea of what you like at these meets.
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mr_ro_co
Joined: 08 May 2006 Posts: 1643 Location: Santa Fe NM
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Link Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2014 1:55 pm Post subject: |
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Spanky Ham wrote: |
Now as for something affordable, I think the Steve and Steve show have nailed it. Thanks to Crabb, I have spent to much time looking at diysoundgroups SEOS waveguide speakers. They seem to be highly regarded at most of these GTs.
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They appear to still be making my favorite mistake: Placing the center on its side.
You can do this with the Seaton LCR because it uses a coaxial driver. The hand-off between it and the bass drivers on either side of it is at a low frequency where there is no audible interference pattern. I guarantee you Seaton employs that coax unit to get the true point source and controlled directivity he seeks from his designs as well as solving the speaker orientation problem for those who do not have AT screens and insist on putting the center on its side.
_________________ Not only is there no god, try finding a plumber on Sunday!
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Spanky Ham
Joined: 22 Mar 2006 Posts: 5643 Location: Comedy Central
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Link Posted: Tue Jul 29, 2014 2:19 am Post subject: |
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Which speaker(s) are you talking about? I think most of the projector guys are trying to go with matching LCRs. For this reason, I think the Jeff Bagby Cinema 88 is getting some love. It is only 9" deep with a 21" wide by 18" profile. It has a monster 15" waveguide. I am not a huge fan of the side by side woofers, but Jeff says it works well and has excellent horizontal directivity.
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mr_ro_co
Joined: 08 May 2006 Posts: 1643 Location: Santa Fe NM
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Link Posted: Tue Jul 29, 2014 2:37 am Post subject: |
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Spanky Ham wrote: | Which speaker(s) are you talking about? I think most of the projector guys are trying to go with matching LCRs. For this reason, I think the Jeff Bagby Cinema 88 is getting some love. It is only 9" deep with a 21" wide by 18" profile. It has a monster 15" waveguide. I am not a huge fan of the side by side woofers, but Jeff says it works well and has excellent horizontal directivity. |
The benefit of matching LCRs is usually essentially undone if you take the center speaker and place it on its side. This applies just as much (if not more so) to a WHW vertical array as a MTM type array. Everything from first reflections to the directivity and all associated interference patterns is now in the horizontal axis.
Anyone who tells you that "works well" needs to explain how you can show in 10 seconds with the pink noise stimulus usually built into any processor just how radically different that center speaker sounds merely by placing it on its side.
If the room was totally dead (anechoic above 150 Hz), this wouldn't matter for one and only one listener: the guy directly in front of the center speaker. Even then, all he would have to do is lean slightly to one side to hear the spectral balance of the center depart from the left and right speaker.
I think I know what you mean in your description, but send me a link to that Bagby Cinema 88 (I did a quick web search but didn't turn up any images). If it is what I think it is, as long as the L and R match it and are oriented the same, that would work okay. Not as good as a symmetric array (WHW), but much better than placing a speaker identical to the L & R on its side.
As mentioned, Seaton cleverly address this problem by using a coaxial drive unit in his designs. The xvr between it and the woofers is sufficiently low that the interference pattern cannot be heard, even when his speakers are oriented horizontally.
Steve
_________________ Not only is there no god, try finding a plumber on Sunday!
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Spanky Ham
Joined: 22 Mar 2006 Posts: 5643 Location: Comedy Central
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mr_ro_co
Joined: 08 May 2006 Posts: 1643 Location: Santa Fe NM
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Link Posted: Tue Jul 29, 2014 2:46 pm Post subject: |
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Okay, the 88 Special would work okay. I still prefer a different horn geometry as well as a symmetric array (WHW) for point source emulation and better power response (and elimination of the ubiquitous 150 Hz floor bounce suckout).
I listened to most of the podcast, but didn't hear anything earth shaking. All the real tech in this speaker is in the compression driver design and in the woofer motor. Everything else they talk about is par for the course for a well designed horn-based studio monitor. I worship at the alter of JBL, but the fact remains that a square horn, no matter that fancy geometry of the M2 (reminds me of the old Motorola Piezo horn tweeter), it is still going to suffer from waveform distortion, and there is no need for that horn geometry in a home audio / home theater setting.
_________________ Not only is there no god, try finding a plumber on Sunday!
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Spanky Ham
Joined: 22 Mar 2006 Posts: 5643 Location: Comedy Central
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Link Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2014 2:17 am Post subject: |
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What kind of horn geometry do you prefer? The SEOS apparently had a lot of design work done on it by the guys at AVS. I haven't heard it yet, but it has received great reviews especially at the price point.
As for the JBLs and the podcast, I just thought it was an interesting design. I did find the comment about flat frequency response enlightening. IIRC they said that if the speaker is designed correctly then in listening test people preferred the flat speaker.
Oh if there is some interest here in seeing the 88 at Williams then I will try to build one for the meet.
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mr_ro_co
Joined: 08 May 2006 Posts: 1643 Location: Santa Fe NM
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Link Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2014 3:34 am Post subject: |
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Spanky Ham wrote: | What kind of horn geometry do you prefer? The SEOS apparently had a lot of design work done on it by the guys at AVS. I haven't heard it yet, but it has received great reviews especially at the price point.
As for the JBLs and the podcast, I just thought it was an interesting design. I did find the comment about flat frequency response enlightening. IIRC they said that if the speaker is designed correctly then in listening test people preferred the flat speaker.
Oh if there is some interest here in seeing the 88 at Williams then I will try to build one for the meet. |
The SEOS may be better than I think. I"d have to take a closer look at it. I'm usually very doubtful of the fidelity of waveguides/horns that appear square or rectangular, but this in reality varies a lot based on the complexity and flare characteristics of the waveguide. Generally speaking, I prefer completely round or only mildly elliptical waveguides that have a modest flare rate, bordering on conical. These have the least gain, but also typically the lowest overall distortion.
_________________ Not only is there no god, try finding a plumber on Sunday!
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Spanky Ham
Joined: 22 Mar 2006 Posts: 5643 Location: Comedy Central
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mr_ro_co
Joined: 08 May 2006 Posts: 1643 Location: Santa Fe NM
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Link Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2014 3:31 pm Post subject: |
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Spanky Ham wrote: | http://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-diy-speakers-subs/1291022-hey-guys-we-need-little-rallying-here.html |
This is an excellent horn. Performance data is outstanding. Cheap too (depending on your choice of compression driver)! Great way to get the benefits of a horn based speaker that will still fit underneath a non-AT screen.
Steve
_________________ Not only is there no god, try finding a plumber on Sunday!
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Spanky Ham
Joined: 22 Mar 2006 Posts: 5643 Location: Comedy Central
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Link Posted: Thu Jul 31, 2014 1:45 pm Post subject: |
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After Cedia, I will make a determination if I am going Atmos or not. I will then decide which speakers to buy. If Atmos wasn't under consideration, then I would go ahead and buy the 88.
Also, I wanted to say I love Mark's speakers. He has done a helluva job with his designs. At two of the meet threads on AVS, Marks speakers were considered the best. Unfortunately, they are above the price that I am willing to pay. If he had DIY, then I might go that route. Keith Yates and I were talking him out of going the DIY route a couple of years ago at Cedia. I guess I should have put my own wants first.
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mr_ro_co
Joined: 08 May 2006 Posts: 1643 Location: Santa Fe NM
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Link Posted: Thu Jul 31, 2014 3:52 pm Post subject: |
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Spanky Ham wrote: | After Cedia, I will make a determination if I am going Atmos or not. I will then decide which speakers to buy. If Atmos wasn't under consideration, then I would go ahead and buy the 88.
Also, I wanted to say I love Mark's speakers. He has done a helluva job with his designs. At two of the meet threads on AVS, Marks speakers were considered the best. Unfortunately, they are above the price that I am willing to pay. If he had DIY, then I might go that route. Keith Yates and I were talking him out of going the DIY route a couple of years ago at Cedia. I guess I should have put my own wants first. |
I'd never heard them until recently (William's place). They are outstanding, and very well made.
_________________ Not only is there no god, try finding a plumber on Sunday!
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