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From CRT to Digital - Just picked up a used JVC DLA-RS1x
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JayAllan



Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 175
Location: Los Angeles


PostLink    Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2014 10:20 pm    Post subject: From CRT to Digital - Just picked up a used JVC DLA-RS1x Reply with quote


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My first digital :p

I kind of screwed up and bought this thinking it was an RS1 but it seems that it is similar in specs so I should be ok. I am keeping my PG-10 9incher as my main theater projector until I replace it with my G90 but I wanted an everyday late night in the bedroom digital to play with.

Everyone told me the RS1 was the starting point of good digitals that are in the cheap used market. Anyone have any experience with these? Smile

It is being shipped so I should have it in a week or so.
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Spanky Ham



Joined: 22 Mar 2006
Posts: 5634
Location: Comedy Central


PostLink    Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 3:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It was the original high contrast LCOS. It had rough edges that were sanded off in subsequent models. I hope you didn't pay a lot for it. You should be able to pick up RS40s in the mid teens or lower.

I thought about picking up the Mits 7900 that was going for $800. If you like DLP, then that would probably be a good inexpensive digital.
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HogPilot



Joined: 21 Jan 2010
Posts: 2383


TV/Projector: Vizio P702ui-B3, Pioneer Elite Pro-151FD & 111FD


PostLink    Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 7:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I owned two - one when the RS1u was brand new, and another after a brief stint with a couple other projectors (Sony Pearl and BenQ W10000 to name a few). I also owned the Pioneer FPJ1, which was a clone of the RS1's successor, the RS2. The RS1x that you purchased was essentially an evolutionary update to the RS1u. It used the same optical block as the original RS1u, but it had HDMI 1.3 instead of 1.1 inputs and it also had the RS2's parametric greyscale/gamma controls - otherwise they were the same machine performance-wise.

I loved the RS1's contrast ratio, which at the time was a massive leap forward for digitals - it blew my Optoma H79 DLP out of the water, which was considered to be one of the higher CR DLPs at the time. Its LCoS picture was a little softer than that of DLP (which most CRT types tend to like), it had good convergence, and its calibrated 600-700 lumen output was almost as revolutionary as its contrast ratio. On the down side, its native gamut was significantly oversaturated (pretty close to the DCI gamut), with zero built-in CMS. Something that JVC has greatly improved since the RS1 is MTF and sharpness of the machine, but coming from a CRT most digitals are a big step forward in that department anyways.

The colors never bothered me mostly because at the time I didn't have a good frame of reference for what a properly calibrated projector looked like. There are still lots of RS1 owners over at AVS who are still running them - it seems to have not had any major long-term reliability issues. Overall for the price point, you're getting a lot of machine for your money. I hope you're happy with it!

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ecrabb wrote:
Curt Palme wrote:
Interesting, Mac isn't returning my emails. Go figure.

He's mad at us for making Hog a moderator. He took his ball and went home.

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JayAllan



Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 175
Location: Los Angeles


PostLink    Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 7:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Great guys! Exactly the info I was hoping to get. I picked it up for $700 with a spare bulb so I figured that was a good enough price. I am running my DVDO VP30 into it so hopefully I can tweak the color down a little

Thanks Smile
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ecrabb
Forum Moderator


Joined: 13 Mar 2006
Posts: 15909
Location: Utah

TV/Projector: JVC RS40, Epson 5010


PostLink    Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 8:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JayAllan wrote:
I picked it up for $700 with a spare bulb so I figured that was a good enough price.

The lamp is probably worth $150-200 by itself, so that means the projector was about $500. That's a hell of a machine for that kind of money. Good score. I bet you'll be pretty impressed. A friend of mine has the next-generation Pioneer that Hog mentioned, and it's a very good projector. It's basically the digital that got me to start thinking about digital - at all. I just waited a few generations to jump.

I'm thrilled with my JVC RS45. I was pretty nervous about switching, but once I turned the JVC on and realized just how amazingly quiet it was (and how very noisy my CRT was), then saw how great the image looked, I was really blown away. Two years and probably 800 hours later, I'm still just as happy as I was when it was brand new. The CRT was great, and I still love the image, but I can't help but feel like I sold my old big V8 SUV to get a new supercharged V6 crossover. The new one won't tow as much and won't carry as much cargo, but in exchange it's faster, more powerful, lighter, quieter, more efficient, and handles better. Wink

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stridsvognen
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PostLink    Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 8:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You might need to test with and without the VP30, i bet you will get a better result direct from a blu ray player, the VP30 is not really 1080P 24hz friendly.
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HogPilot



Joined: 21 Jan 2010
Posts: 2383


TV/Projector: Vizio P702ui-B3, Pioneer Elite Pro-151FD & 111FD


PostLink    Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 10:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JayAllan wrote:
Great guys! Exactly the info I was hoping to get. I picked it up for $700 with a spare bulb so I figured that was a good enough price. I am running my DVDO VP30 into it so hopefully I can tweak the color down a little

Thanks Smile


FYI the VP30 doesn't have any of the requisite controls for properly adjusting the gamut (or the greyscale or gamma for that matter, even though those particular controls are built-in to your RS1x). You'd need at least a DVDO Duo, or a Radiance or Vision processor from Lumagen to properly fix the gamut. Also, as strids alluded to, although the VP30 can output 1080p, it doesn't really process it that well so you would most likely be better off feeding the RS1 directly from your HD sources and letting the on-board Gennum VXP handle any video processing.

I'll echo ecrabb's sentiments that you got a really great deal on this machine, especially with the extra bulb.

_________________
ecrabb wrote:
Curt Palme wrote:
Interesting, Mac isn't returning my emails. Go figure.

He's mad at us for making Hog a moderator. He took his ball and went home.

SC
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JayAllan



Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 175
Location: Los Angeles


PostLink    Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2014 2:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I didn't know that about the VP30. I have been using it for 720p on my DWIN. Good to know. I will try going directly from my bluray into the JVC. I am not used to having a projector that has HDMI inputs! Wink
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JayAllan



Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 175
Location: Los Angeles


PostLink    Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2014 5:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Got the RS1x today! Its bigger than I expected. That's good. Seller packed in in original box with extra bulb and half used bulb. I set if up roughly and so far I am impressed. He had it calibrated and his profile is way better than any other setting. Looks very accurate and punchy.

A question. Lots of warm air blowing out the left front vents but nothing out the right. Is this normal or do I have a fan down?
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Jeremy112



Joined: 28 Sep 2006
Posts: 2643
Location: Fond du Lac, WI


PostLink    Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2014 12:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The right vent is intake if I'm not mistaken. Should be sucking air in and the left should be blowing it out.
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HogPilot



Joined: 21 Jan 2010
Posts: 2383


TV/Projector: Vizio P702ui-B3, Pioneer Elite Pro-151FD & 111FD


PostLink    Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2014 3:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JayAllan wrote:
Got the RS1x today! Its bigger than I expected. That's good. Seller packed in in original box with extra bulb and half used bulb. I set if up roughly and so far I am impressed. He had it calibrated and his profile is way better than any other setting. Looks very accurate and punchy.


Yeah, it's not exactly small for a digital projector. A proper calibration with the parametric greyscale/gamma controls will yield a superior picture compared to any of the preset stuff. Do you know what gamma he had it calibrated to? I know the RS2 was the first JVC that people started doing a 2.4 instead of 2.2 because of its 30K:1 CR, but that was very environment dependent - the room needed to support the low black levels necessary to see shadow detail in the low IRE's. Of course at that time BT.1886 hadn't been finalized, and I think using that hybrid curve instead of a pure power curve would yield absolutely fantastic low-level greyscale results at higher gamma values on the RS1.

JayAllan wrote:
A question. Lots of warm air blowing out the left front vents but nothing out the right. Is this normal or do I have a fan down?


Jeremy112 is correct - as you're looking at the front of the projector, the vent on the right is an intake, the one of the left is exhaust. This is totally normal.

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ecrabb wrote:
Curt Palme wrote:
Interesting, Mac isn't returning my emails. Go figure.

He's mad at us for making Hog a moderator. He took his ball and went home.

SC
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JayAllan



Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 175
Location: Los Angeles


PostLink    Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 5:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks guys.

That makes sense about the vents Smile Good to know.

The gamma is at 2.4 I will say for the price this is a great projector but I definitely see the limitations of this versus a CRT (as expected) To get the detail in the highlights I need to lower the overall brightness and the picture looks dull. Getting the image to pop means I lose all detail in the highlights so it is definitely a compromise. For most folks I am sure this is fine but being a photographer image quality is everything to me.

That being said I just watched the Hobbit 2 on it and it looked great. Overall I am very impressed by this JVC. It is amazing how easy it was to set up. Smile
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HogPilot



Joined: 21 Jan 2010
Posts: 2383


TV/Projector: Vizio P702ui-B3, Pioneer Elite Pro-151FD & 111FD


PostLink    Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 5:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JayAllan wrote:
Thanks guys.

That makes sense about the vents Smile Good to know.

The gamma is at 2.4 I will say for the price this is a great projector but I definitely see the limitations of this versus a CRT (as expected) To get the detail in the highlights I need to lower the overall brightness and the picture looks dull. Getting the image to pop means I lose all detail in the highlights so it is definitely a compromise. For most folks I am sure this is fine but being a photographer image quality is everything to me.

That being said I just watched the Hobbit 2 on it and it looked great. Overall I am very impressed by this JVC. It is amazing how easy it was to set up. Smile


Yes, the ease of setup is definitely a positive aspect to help counter the negative of losing CRT's black levels and motion resolution.

I'm almost positive that the shadow detail/brightness trade-off issue that you're describing is due to the 2.4 gamma - even in the most light controlled "black hole" type room, the RS1 really doesn't have the CR to be calibrated to a pure 2.4 power curve and not crush some shadow detail. If you have the means and the time, I'd highly recommend re-calibrating it to 2.2 (or using the BT.1886 curve that I recommended) using the 11-point greyscale/gamma controls to get the absolute best picture. You should find that this will allow you to keep your brightness set properly without crushing low-level detail. Of course, you'll sacrifice a bit of the appearance of darker blacks, but in reality you're not negatively affecting black level at all.

Either way, I'm glad that you're thoroughly enjoying you RS1!

_________________
ecrabb wrote:
Curt Palme wrote:
Interesting, Mac isn't returning my emails. Go figure.

He's mad at us for making Hog a moderator. He took his ball and went home.

SC
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JayAllan



Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 175
Location: Los Angeles


PostLink    Posted: Sat May 03, 2014 5:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

HogPilot wrote:


Yes, the ease of setup is definitely a positive aspect to help counter the negative of losing CRT's black levels and motion resolution.

I'm almost positive that the shadow detail/brightness trade-off issue that you're describing is due to the 2.4 gamma - even in the most light controlled "black hole" type room, the RS1 really doesn't have the CR to be calibrated to a pure 2.4 power curve and not crush some shadow detail. If you have the means and the time, I'd highly recommend re-calibrating it to 2.2 (or using the BT.1886 curve that I recommended) using the 11-point greyscale/gamma controls to get the absolute best picture. You should find that this will allow you to keep your brightness set properly without crushing low-level detail. Of course, you'll sacrifice a bit of the appearance of darker blacks, but in reality you're not negatively affecting black level at all.

Either way, I'm glad that you're thoroughly enjoying you RS1!


I saw the Gamma curve adjustments in the menu. I will have to research that a little more before I tweak it but I am sure that is where the magic happens Wink I will check out the BT.1886 curve and give it a try.
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kal
Forum Administrator


Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 15857
Location: Ottawa, Canada

TV/Projector: JVC DLA-RS56


PostLink    Posted: Sat May 03, 2014 6:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JayAllan wrote:
...but I definitely see the limitations of this versus a CRT (as expected) ...

Yes - while groundbreaking, I found the RS1 still wasn't up to the image pop I was used to with CRT. It was however the first digital I saw (about 7 years ago) where I thought that they were getting close and that by the time I dropped CRT that there would probably be something pretty similar.

Fast forward to today and the newer JVCs are considerably better. My JVC (RS56) is already "last year's model" and I'm thoroughly impressed with it and enjoy it a lot more than the Zenith 1200X (8" EM LC) I came from. They've come a long way in 7 years.

Kal

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JayAllan



Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 175
Location: Los Angeles


PostLink    Posted: Sun May 04, 2014 7:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kal wrote:
JayAllan wrote:
...but I definitely see the limitations of this versus a CRT (as expected) ...

Yes - while groundbreaking, I found the RS1 still wasn't up to the image pop I was used to with CRT. It was however the first digital I saw (about 7 years ago) where I thought that they were getting close and that by the time I dropped CRT that there would probably be something pretty similar.

Fast forward to today and the newer JVCs are considerably better. My JVC (RS56) is already "last year's model" and I'm thoroughly impressed with it and enjoy it a lot more than the Zenith 1200X (8" EM LC) I came from. They've come a long way in 7 years.

Kal


For the price it is truly amazing. I will definitely upgrade to a later model like yours at some point. This is certainly the first "watchable" digital I have seen so I am sure the extended contrast and pixel shift from yours must be amazing.

I also have mine temporarily set up so that it is almost at the max distance from the screen that it can be. I imagine the closer to the screen the more punch it will have contrast wise. I will have to set up a much closer test.
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kal
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Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 15857
Location: Ottawa, Canada

TV/Projector: JVC DLA-RS56


PostLink    Posted: Sun May 04, 2014 7:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JayAllan wrote:
I also have mine temporarily set up so that it is almost at the max distance from the screen that it can be. I imagine the closer to the screen the more punch it will have contrast wise. I will have to set up a much closer test.


It's the opposite (for digitals).

Installed father back = higher contrast ratio / lower light output

Installed closer to the screen = low contrast ratio / higher light output


Kal

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HogPilot



Joined: 21 Jan 2010
Posts: 2383


TV/Projector: Vizio P702ui-B3, Pioneer Elite Pro-151FD & 111FD


PostLink    Posted: Sun May 04, 2014 9:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kal wrote:
JayAllan wrote:
I also have mine temporarily set up so that it is almost at the max distance from the screen that it can be. I imagine the closer to the screen the more punch it will have contrast wise. I will have to set up a much closer test.


It's the opposite (for digitals).

Installed father back = higher contrast ratio / lower light output

Installed closer to the screen = low contrast ratio / higher light output


Kal


Is it opposite for CRTs? Shorter throw = higher contrast?

Kal's almost universally true statements about the relationship between throw and contrast ratio is due to the fact that the vast majority of LCoS, DLP, and LCD projector lenses have an iris in them that changes the f-stop of the lens as the image is zoomed in or out. There are a couple exceptions to this - Marantz's VP12Sx and 11Sx are all examples of projectors that have constant aperture lenses that have the same f-stop regardless of the zoom position. Of course, the lenses on those units are relatively expensive (not just because of their constant f-stop), so this is the exception rather than the rule.

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ecrabb wrote:
Curt Palme wrote:
Interesting, Mac isn't returning my emails. Go figure.

He's mad at us for making Hog a moderator. He took his ball and went home.

SC
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kal
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Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 15857
Location: Ottawa, Canada

TV/Projector: JVC DLA-RS56


PostLink    Posted: Sun May 04, 2014 10:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

HogPilot wrote:
Is it opposite for CRTs? Shorter throw = higher contrast?

I don't think so - not sure. I don't think it makes a difference (?)

Kal

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HogPilot



Joined: 21 Jan 2010
Posts: 2383


TV/Projector: Vizio P702ui-B3, Pioneer Elite Pro-151FD & 111FD


PostLink    Posted: Sun May 04, 2014 11:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kal wrote:
HogPilot wrote:
Is it opposite for CRTs? Shorter throw = higher contrast?

I don't think so - not sure. I don't think it makes a difference (?)

Kal


Oh okay, thanks. I only asked because JayAllan talked about mounting his RS1 closer to try to get more punch/contrast out of it, I didn't know if that was a CRT thing or not.

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ecrabb wrote:
Curt Palme wrote:
Interesting, Mac isn't returning my emails. Go figure.

He's mad at us for making Hog a moderator. He took his ball and went home.

SC
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