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David1
Joined: 20 Dec 2006
Posts: 24
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 Link Posted: Mon Jun 30, 2014 2:27 am Post subject: |
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Craig R- I understand you are quite busy and I'm not sure I have the $$ right now to get you to Minneapolis to tweak my g90.
So until then I'll try myself
I am seeing streaking and I want to try and get my levels better set up.
I asked you about scoping the Momme card but can't figure out which is the green pin ?
Can you share ? Also is there any sense to starting with known levels for gain, bias and gamma then go from there?
If so can anyone share ?
I do have access to a phillips analyzer and will use that to get the color temp and fl set as well as tracking
Any insight would be much appreciated
Thanks again
David
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David1
Joined: 20 Dec 2006
Posts: 24
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| Link Posted: Mon Jun 30, 2014 3:11 am Post subject: |
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I thought I would share this in case someone else at some point is searching.
The Gamma set up in the G90 is only available when using custom white balance and in expert mode.
So here is the process :
Go to service menu which is enter enter up down enter
Go to expert enter enter left right enter enter
Then menu
go to color balance - custom
Press gain and bias same time and you should see a grey scale
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stridsvognen
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| Link Posted: Tue Jul 08, 2014 11:32 pm Post subject: |
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I had some good news today.
Im going to get another Moome card for the G90.
I was in contact with Moome some time back about the very poor bandwidth performance on the new V3 cards, and made him send a new board to Mike Parker.
Mike confirmed my findings, and told me the card had som clipping and serious bandwidth limitations, i tested it to be below 70Mhz.
The good news is that i bought the Sony Moome V3 card that Mike fixed, so i should be able to post some details about the performance differences.
I know that most of you guys running the G90 dont notice stuff like this, and think it dont holds any importance to the image, no need to argue that further.
Ill just post the results, so if someone who joins in the future, who like to play with it will get a idea where to start.
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stridsvognen
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| Link Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2014 6:00 pm Post subject: |
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Ill be testing the Moome V3 Sony board in my Marquee, The board in the picture has been improved and tested by Mike Parker.
He connected it to my 03 marquee VIM, ill try test both the standard V3 and the MP modified one, to display the difference in a machine who dont cut down the signal bandwidth.
This new board should improve on the G90 performance, so that the Moome V3 card is not the bottle neck in the video chain.
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jbmeyer13
Joined: 03 Dec 2010
Posts: 1135
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| Link Posted: Thu Jul 31, 2014 3:14 pm Post subject: |
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| stridsvognen wrote: | Ill be testing the Moome V3 Sony board in my Marquee, The board in the picture has been improved and tested by Mike Parker.
He connected it to my 03 marquee VIM, ill try test both the standard V3 and the MP modified one, to display the difference in a machine who dont cut down the signal bandwidth.
This new board should improve on the G90 performance, so that the Moome V3 card is not the bottle neck in the video chain. |
And....where are the results? 
Very curious to see this
_________________
Projector: Modded 9501LC ULtra- MP VIM, Vold VNB, ETECH LVPS, Silver VIM Cables, HD10F's & a V1 case!
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stridsvognen
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| Link Posted: Thu Jul 31, 2014 4:34 pm Post subject: |
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| jbmeyer13 wrote: | | stridsvognen wrote: | Ill be testing the Moome V3 Sony board in my Marquee, The board in the picture has been improved and tested by Mike Parker.
He connected it to my 03 marquee VIM, ill try test both the standard V3 and the MP modified one, to display the difference in a machine who dont cut down the signal bandwidth.
This new board should improve on the G90 performance, so that the Moome V3 card is not the bottle neck in the video chain. |
And....where are the results?
Very curious to see this |
The results is flying over the atlantic ocean.
Funny that its you, and no one with a G90 who is curious. 
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stridsvognen
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| Link Posted: Thu Jul 31, 2014 5:23 pm Post subject: |
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I forgot to tell that Jim Peterson told me that they found 2 issues, who both effect the croma performance.
Its some filters and processing messing with the croma when passing HD material, who should not be active, or manipulate with the signal.
They are working on it. 
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Francisco
Joined: 05 Apr 2007
Posts: 305
Location: The Netherlands
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| Link Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2014 8:25 am Post subject: |
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I don't own a G90 and am interested too 
Moome is doing the same for 909 as well as Greg Eisemann will do comparison when they are ready.
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stridsvognen
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| Link Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2014 9:16 pm Post subject: |
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Ok i have now spent some time playing with the new modified Moome V3 card, and its more complex than i had emagined.
Mike sent me some filters to play with, and there seems to be no way perfect for the G90, as it has to be a compromise betwen high and low level performance, as the G90 will not do both right feedet from a very high bandwidth moome card, its also very sensitive to how the power rails on the moome card is filtered.
So what i made here is a card who will make a very very nice 1:1 full on off, with no peaking to the 1st vertical line.
But that will cost a lot of vertical resolution at low level.
The other card looks nice and sharp, but will role off a bit at high level, but keep a almost perfect low level resolution. It then shows the peaking to the 1st vertical line again.
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hal
Joined: 28 Nov 2012
Posts: 100
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| Link Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2014 11:53 pm Post subject: |
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Does Mike have a G90 for a test mule?
HDMI 2.0 is next hurdle..
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stridsvognen
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| Link Posted: Thu Aug 07, 2014 5:05 am Post subject: |
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| hal wrote: | Does Mike have a G90 for a test mule?
HDMI 2.0 is next hurdle.. |
Mike has a G90, i guess its modified, and i think it wont have the same problems with the peaking messing with the signal, so it might handle a high bandwidth better.
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jbmeyer13
Joined: 03 Dec 2010
Posts: 1135
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| Link Posted: Thu Aug 07, 2014 5:43 pm Post subject: |
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| stridsvognen wrote: | Ok i have now spent some time playing with the new modified Moome V3 card, and its more complex than i had emagined.
Mike sent me some filters to play with, and there seems to be no way perfect for the G90, as it has to be a compromise betwen high and low level performance, as the G90 will not do both right feedet from a very high bandwidth moome card, its also very sensitive to how the power rails on the moome card is filtered.
So what i made here is a card who will make a very very nice 1:1 full on off, with no peaking to the 1st vertical line.
But that will cost a lot of vertical resolution at low level.
The other card looks nice and sharp, but will role off a bit at high level, but keep a almost perfect low level resolution. It then shows the peaking to the 1st vertical line again. |
Glad to see you received your filters...I've been waiting for months
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Projector: Modded 9501LC ULtra- MP VIM, Vold VNB, ETECH LVPS, Silver VIM Cables, HD10F's & a V1 case!
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CIR Engineering
Joined: 25 Aug 2008
Posts: 4264
Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany
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| Link Posted: Sun Aug 10, 2014 10:07 pm Post subject: |
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| stridsvognen wrote: | | gjaky wrote: | | Kurt in your eyes you have about 7 million receptors to percieve colors, and have about 75 to 150 million receptors to percieve brightness, as Craig already mentioned the human eye have much less resolution in color than in brightnes, as you can now see the difference is in the factor of 10! |
I have no idea, ill have to trust what i feel and see. And i goes with what i like best, if you prefer less color resolution, and say you cant see a difference, ill trust thats how it works for you.
This all started the day i plugged my Denon DVD A1UD direct into the moome card, and was thinking.. WOW
After that i was trying to find a reason to the difference, and the only thing i can find that behaves different is the croma.
I have almost never run a blu ray player direct into my CRT, always used the Radiance, and from the first day i got the radiance i had a feeling it changed something, without anything activated in the CMS or any other adjustments.
I can read what you all say, but when it dont add up with what i see on my screen, i share it, and im aware as i also experienced that many displays wont display much difference at all, but i just have a hole different night and day experience with my moddet Marquee, it like cuts it out and slap me in the face.
If its not important, or visual, how far up the pattern can you mute the colors before its visible to everyone.
Im all in for make it right, and remove the doubt. |
I believe that you can see differences Kurt, but those differences are not from the chroma resolution. There may be other differences between the hardware, or simply put, your perception of what you see is the influencing factor.
The chroma burst pattern in S&M does not provide any usable information for 1:1 on BD when the player is set to 422 444 or RGB. None of the possible output modes on a BD player can properly resolve 1:1 with chroma even if your test patter looks correct. It also does not matter if the test pattern looks more correct or less correct on 1:1 with any combinations of settings. The test pattern provides a special case and does not reflect real world images quality.
This is because the BD is mastered at 4:2:0 and there is no output on any current BD player that supports 4:2:0 and it is not supported by HDMI 1.4. Because of this, 4:2:0 must be upsampled. The least invasive upsample is 4:2:2 which is why you will get the best chroma resolution (real world resolution) in real world video with 422.
The analogy here is showing a 720p test pattern on a 1080p display. The test pattern can be made to look good with some scalers and not so good with others. However, 1080p is not evenly divisible by 720p so therefore no matter what the output looks like on a 1:1 test pattern, compromises must be made in real world images. The 1:1 test pattern when upscaled to 720p is worthless just like the chroma 1:1 test pattern is worthless when it is scaled from 4:2:0 to 4:2:2, component 4:4:4, or RGB 4:4:4.
You may think you are seeing differences in the chroma response, but these differences are not due to the Lumagen's response with respect to what you see on the S&M test pattern. Lumagen is working to make the S&M test pattern look correct, but this will not result in any improvement in real world image quality. It will only make the test pattern look better.
craigr
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stridsvognen
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| Link Posted: Mon Aug 11, 2014 4:43 am Post subject: |
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| CIR Engineering wrote: | | stridsvognen wrote: | | gjaky wrote: | | Kurt in your eyes you have about 7 million receptors to percieve colors, and have about 75 to 150 million receptors to percieve brightness, as Craig already mentioned the human eye have much less resolution in color than in brightnes, as you can now see the difference is in the factor of 10! |
I have no idea, ill have to trust what i feel and see. And i goes with what i like best, if you prefer less color resolution, and say you cant see a difference, ill trust thats how it works for you.
This all started the day i plugged my Denon DVD A1UD direct into the moome card, and was thinking.. WOW
After that i was trying to find a reason to the difference, and the only thing i can find that behaves different is the croma.
I have almost never run a blu ray player direct into my CRT, always used the Radiance, and from the first day i got the radiance i had a feeling it changed something, without anything activated in the CMS or any other adjustments.
I can read what you all say, but when it dont add up with what i see on my screen, i share it, and im aware as i also experienced that many displays wont display much difference at all, but i just have a hole different night and day experience with my moddet Marquee, it like cuts it out and slap me in the face.
If its not important, or visual, how far up the pattern can you mute the colors before its visible to everyone.
Im all in for make it right, and remove the doubt. |
I believe that you can see differences Kurt, but those differences are not from the chroma resolution. There may be other differences between the hardware, or simply put, your perception of what you see is the influencing factor.
The chroma burst pattern in S&M does not provide any usable information for 1:1 on BD when the player is set to 422 444 or RGB. None of the possible output modes on a BD player can properly resolve 1:1 with chroma even if your test patter looks correct. It also does not matter if the test pattern looks more correct or less correct on 1:1 with any combinations of settings. The test pattern provides a special case and does not reflect real world images quality.
This is because the BD is mastered at 4:2:0 and there is no output on any current BD player that supports 4:2:0 and it is not supported by HDMI 1.4. Because of this, 4:2:0 must be upsampled. The least invasive upsample is 4:2:2 which is why you will get the best chroma resolution (real world resolution) in real world video with 422.
The analogy here is showing a 720p test pattern on a 1080p display. The test pattern can be made to look good with some scalers and not so good with others. However, 1080p is not evenly divisible by 720p so therefore no matter what the output looks like on a 1:1 test pattern, compromises must be made in real world images. The 1:1 test pattern when upscaled to 720p is worthless just like the chroma 1:1 test pattern is worthless when it is scaled from 4:2:0 to 4:2:2, component 4:4:4, or RGB 4:4:4.
You may think you are seeing differences in the chroma response, but these differences are not due to the Lumagen's response with respect to what you see on the S&M test pattern. Lumagen is working to make the S&M test pattern look correct, but this will not result in any improvement in real world image quality. It will only make the test pattern look better.
craigr |
I had some funny experiences with the new Lumagen firmware WHO fixed some croma issues, and when running game mode on, i have a overshoot/ peaking to the vertical high resolution croma multiburst, but i see what you mean with scaling, as its indeed visible on the 2 big vertical bars to the left.
422 direct out of the player into my JVC the 2 bars is perfectly Sharp and have 2 pixel Black Space betwen them.
If you convert to RGB color Space, it eats up the 2 Black pixels.
Depending the processor they pass, 422 in 422 out with a difference, with the radiance game mode off there is a softening effect on the vertical edges 2-3pixel into the color bar, with game mode on it has a ringing/ peaking instead.
Now the differences im looking for is not so much how color Spaces is converted from 4:2:0 to 4:2:2, as i will use the 4:2:2 out of the player as a reference.
Im looking to see how much the 4:2:2 color spase is messed up when passing the processor.
Lumagen found 2 problems, some processing made to the HD croma signal, and a filter WHO should not be active.
That greatly improved the way it passes the croma signal, now they are looking at the edge ringing when game mode is on.
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