CurtPalme.com Home Theater Forum

[kal]

Register to remove this ad. It's free!

I don't believe in moderating and I agree that me having changed this thread subject is a form of moderation so I've now put the subject back to "Watched a movie on a digital last night and... ".

The intent wasn't to moderate but to clarify, but obviously that didn't work out. Never meant to ruffle any feathers. Sorry guys.

Kal

[kal]

Register to remove this ad. It's free!

I don't believe in moderating and I agree that me having changed this thread subject is a form of moderation so I've now put the subject back to "Watched a movie on a digital last night and... ".

The intent wasn't to moderate but to clarify, but obviously that didn't work out. Never meant to ruffle any feathers. Sorry guys.

Kal

[kal]

[kal]

[HogPilot]

[Spanky Ham]

While I agree with you guys, I must confess that there were some visitors recently that had a case of digital elitism.


I thought Kals title change was a good move, but I understand where it could upset some. I don't see this site being anywhere close to AVS.

[kal]

[kal]

[kal]

Update: I did do one piece of moderating however - I've moved this thread to the Digital Projector forum as that's what the original post was clearly about (it was in the CRT projector forum).

Kal

[kal]

Update: I did do one piece of moderating however - I've moved this thread to the Digital Projector forum as that's what the original post was clearly about (it was in the CRT projector forum).

Kal

[Nashou66]

[Curt Palme]

You'll note that I didn't really post anything on this thread.

I pretty much bailed on the digital vs CRT arguments a few years ago. It gets boring after a while, and you can't convince anyone arguing on the internet anyway.

Heck, some of my own perceptions and observations have changed in my own mind over the last 14 years since I joined avs. Here's some facts:

-seeing a single chip DLP at Cliff's place in Oct changed my mind about some of the single chip DLP digitals. I still saw rainbows, but did watch a whole movie to see if I would get headaches like I did at CES a few years back at the TI booth. I didn't. The pix was pretty damn good. I've always thought that the high end digitals look decent, ever since I saw a Qualia 004 close up and personal. That was 10 years ago. No, no CRT blacks, but pretty good.

-for the first time, I hung a freebie 55" Samsung Smart LED TV in my bedroom last week. I've never had a TV in my bedroom, ever, but the fact that it was a Smart TV and free made me do it. I watched a movie on it this past weekend via a BR player with a standard DVD on it. From a technical POV, I didn't like the pix. From a convenience point, it was great!

- Yes, a presentation projector will look like crap for HT use. Given a choice between a 'tiny' 32" picture or an 8' presentation projector, give me the presentation projector.

-As many have stated above, anything but an EM focusing projector now has been completely superceded by most digitals. Not to take away from the ES focusing projector people here, but yes, the pix is soft compared to digital. Heck, even a G90 is probably considered soft by most people if it's not properly set up. Still, I do believe that the cost per hour of a CRT is lower now than ever before, and even with the low price of digitals, CRT is still an option.. for the person that enjoys tweaking and doing the DIY thing. For most though, it's not practical.

-a lot of you may not realize it, but a full 50% of my business is now industrial, with planetariums, flight simulators, etc. I charge them more typically than I can an HT end user, because those people still make money off CRT projectors, ergo it makes sense for them to keep the CRTs running. With a $2 million + price tag to change a flight simulator from 7 Barco 909s to 7 digitals, it makes far more sense to send a PC board to me, or to send me a whole projector for retubing.

- any number of CRT models are showing signs of age. I've posted freely about NEC PG and PG+, the Sony 10XX series, analog Barcos, etc, yet there are still some people that use them. I'm always very upfront to people that email me about the 20+ year old sets, giving them the option to not buy CRT parts.

-to make up for the slowing CRT business (which was up in 2012 and 2013 over the previous 5 years though, go figure), I am heading back into sound installations. Right now it's probably 40 hours a week CRT, and 20 hours a week for sound stuff (yes, I typically work 60-80 hour weeks, back in 2000-2004 it was literally 100 hour workweeks). In 5 years, it's probably going to be 20 hours a week for CRT, and 40 hour workweeks for sound stuff.

-I haven't had a working personal HT system in 5 years. Things are hopeful that I'll have one running again by the end of this year...

Anyone that knows me shouldn't find any of the above information surprising.

[Curt Palme]

You'll note that I didn't really post anything on this thread.

I pretty much bailed on the digital vs CRT arguments a few years ago. It gets boring after a while, and you can't convince anyone arguing on the internet anyway.

Heck, some of my own perceptions and observations have changed in my own mind over the last 14 years since I joined avs. Here's some facts:

-seeing a single chip DLP at Cliff's place in Oct changed my mind about some of the single chip DLP digitals. I still saw rainbows, but did watch a whole movie to see if I would get headaches like I did at CES a few years back at the TI booth. I didn't. The pix was pretty damn good. I've always thought that the high end digitals look decent, ever since I saw a Qualia 004 close up and personal. That was 10 years ago. No, no CRT blacks, but pretty good.

-for the first time, I hung a freebie 55" Samsung Smart LED TV in my bedroom last week. I've never had a TV in my bedroom, ever, but the fact that it was a Smart TV and free made me do it. I watched a movie on it this past weekend via a BR player with a standard DVD on it. From a technical POV, I didn't like the pix. From a convenience point, it was great!

- Yes, a presentation projector will look like crap for HT use. Given a choice between a 'tiny' 32" picture or an 8' presentation projector, give me the presentation projector.

-As many have stated above, anything but an EM focusing projector now has been completely superceded by most digitals. Not to take away from the ES focusing projector people here, but yes, the pix is soft compared to digital. Heck, even a G90 is probably considered soft by most people if it's not properly set up. Still, I do believe that the cost per hour of a CRT is lower now than ever before, and even with the low price of digitals, CRT is still an option.. for the person that enjoys tweaking and doing the DIY thing. For most though, it's not practical.

-a lot of you may not realize it, but a full 50% of my business is now industrial, with planetariums, flight simulators, etc. I charge them more typically than I can an HT end user, because those people still make money off CRT projectors, ergo it makes sense for them to keep the CRTs running. With a $2 million + price tag to change a flight simulator from 7 Barco 909s to 7 digitals, it makes far more sense to send a PC board to me, or to send me a whole projector for retubing.

- any number of CRT models are showing signs of age. I've posted freely about NEC PG and PG+, the Sony 10XX series, analog Barcos, etc, yet there are still some people that use them. I'm always very upfront to people that email me about the 20+ year old sets, giving them the option to not buy CRT parts.

-to make up for the slowing CRT business (which was up in 2012 and 2013 over the previous 5 years though, go figure), I am heading back into sound installations. Right now it's probably 40 hours a week CRT, and 20 hours a week for sound stuff (yes, I typically work 60-80 hour weeks, back in 2000-2004 it was literally 100 hour workweeks). In 5 years, it's probably going to be 20 hours a week for CRT, and 40 hour workweeks for sound stuff.

-I haven't had a working personal HT system in 5 years. Things are hopeful that I'll have one running again by the end of this year...

Anyone that knows me shouldn't find any of the above information surprising.

[digitalayon]

[Curt Palme]

I'll respond to that, Lyon!

The Zenith 1200/Barco 808LC isn't the sharpest set in the world. When Kal got it off me back in... 2003-4?... it was literally factory B stock, and was worth about $6K USD or so. I think it had 500 hours on it? Still, between the Barco 808s chassis and the Panasonic tubes, and not the best lenses, a 9" set would run circles around it any day, even properly set up. At the time thougn, a new Zenith 1200 kicked the crap out of virtually any digital projector in the same price range. Remember that the Sony Qualia 004 that I talked about above was $27K USD/42K Canadian.

Of course, also at the time, 9" sets were far and few between, literally unobtanium at the time. I remember buying my first 9500 Ultras for $5K each, and flipped them for $11K each. I remember cringing spending that much sight unseen, both from an 'unknown' condition coming in, and whether the market would bear the $11K price tag, but I sold them within 3 days, and would have been able to sell another 10 had I had access to that many. That was 2004 I think? Times have a'changed!

Also, not speaking for Kal, but his 1200 wouldn't fit into his new HT. He posted about that in his build thread.

Oh, and as a final edit, you should also realize that probably 98% of customers of mine are either not forum members, nor do they read it unless they need technical information. I don't think I sold any of the 40 G90s I sold in the last 2 years to anyone here, at least not forum regulars... there's way more current CRT owners than anyone can possibly imagine. Every month I get an email from someone that has 'found' my site while googling, and there's still lots of people still running things like DWIN 700s and DWIN non HD Transcanners or line doublers. It amazes even me, still!

[Curt Palme]

I'll respond to that, Lyon!

The Zenith 1200/Barco 808LC isn't the sharpest set in the world. When Kal got it off me back in... 2003-4?... it was literally factory B stock, and was worth about $6K USD or so. I think it had 500 hours on it? Still, between the Barco 808s chassis and the Panasonic tubes, and not the best lenses, a 9" set would run circles around it any day, even properly set up. At the time thougn, a new Zenith 1200 kicked the crap out of virtually any digital projector in the same price range. Remember that the Sony Qualia 004 that I talked about above was $27K USD/42K Canadian.

Of course, also at the time, 9" sets were far and few between, literally unobtanium at the time. I remember buying my first 9500 Ultras for $5K each, and flipped them for $11K each. I remember cringing spending that much sight unseen, both from an 'unknown' condition coming in, and whether the market would bear the $11K price tag, but I sold them within 3 days, and would have been able to sell another 10 had I had access to that many. That was 2004 I think? Times have a'changed!

Also, not speaking for Kal, but his 1200 wouldn't fit into his new HT. He posted about that in his build thread.

Oh, and as a final edit, you should also realize that probably 98% of customers of mine are either not forum members, nor do they read it unless they need technical information. I don't think I sold any of the 40 G90s I sold in the last 2 years to anyone here, at least not forum regulars... there's way more current CRT owners than anyone can possibly imagine. Every month I get an email from someone that has 'found' my site while googling, and there's still lots of people still running things like DWIN 700s and DWIN non HD Transcanners or line doublers. It amazes even me, still!

[HogPilot]

[HogPilot]

[Nashou66]

I saw the RS 45 similar to Kal's and I think a RS 4910 or something? They looked sharp as hell but still not as dark as I like. and some motion resolution That I am very sensitive to, especially with sports. There is a high end Audio shop with an in house calibrator where i saw them. One other thing is , and maybe its just me but it looks fake. And I have repeated this many times, like you took flat card board cut outs and placed them at varying depths. So with regard to each other the objects have a sense of depth but the object itself is flat. I do not know how else to explain it, I see the same thing on new Flat panels, except for plasma. I like how plasma looks over LED , LCDF etc.

This of course is my own opinion and taste and yours may vary. it is what I see and How I see it. So telling me I am wrong is like telling me that I'm wrong for not liking eggplant.

Athanasios

[garyfritz]

No, you're definitely right for not liking eggplant.

[Nashou66]

[ecrabb]

Wait, I think you just compared my projector to eggplant! Why, you sonofa...



SC

[digitalayon]

[mr_ro_co]

I think CRT elitism is well founded and deserved and I think digital projector elitism is ridiculous.



Without going into detail, this really boils down to the very long superiority legacy of CRT over digital and the simple fact that the only thing getting a good result from digital now or has ever meant was they guy had the means to throw down on the latest black box gadget that's easy to setup an use. And we CRT guys have had to endure many years of ignorant claims by the digital users when CRT simply crushed them, hands down. Have CRT guys made ignorant dismissals of digitals? For sure, count me as one of them!

This is the forum where all the hardcore dedicated CRT guys ended up, no matter that the digitals have gotten so good lately that even some of the diehard CRT advocates have converted. At least the ones who "just want to watch the movie." Gosh, how boring!

I'm with Nash 100% on his "can't put my finger on it" comparison between CRT and digital. The latest digitals look "hyper-real" to me and curiously two-dimensional like Nash said. My wife and I had a couple stay with us during New Years. The husband sells high end A/V boardroom gear, so he obviously promotes a lot of boardroom digital projectors, but has seen his fair share of high end units. Even with my half-assed setup on my Ultra, he was really impressed with the image quality, and specifically observed that the image had a smooth, 3-D quality to it with really amazing depth of field.

Steve

[digitalayon]

I liken the CRT to a "Classic Muscle Car". Were they more expensive than regular sedans? Yes for the most part. When hot rodders bought one of those cars, did it stay stock? f*ck NO!! People modded the sh*t out of those things. From headers to highrise intakes to dual carbs. Those cars were fun and performance gain was great. It was fun to take something stock and make it just kick ass. Now we have the newer digital's in which I liken to a Honda Accord. Great car and capable of going a great amount of distances. You can maybe chip the computer, change the color, and even add seat covers and runs smooth. Eventually when the motor dies, so does the whole car and gets scrapped. The classic muscle car simply gets a new engine and upgraded wiring and a nice wash and wax every Saturday. When it's on the road, it stands out and acts like its dick has been with your mom. It's unique! You made it that way! The Accord becomes forgotten and has since been replaced by a new Accord or a Nissan and is once again just the same as everyone body else. And like the Accord, you did nothing really to help its performance because you are limited to the manufacturers technology and eventually not supported at all by any enthusiest.

[HogPilot]

Perfect - lacking any definitive or useful comparative info, this discussion has now devolved into loose car analogies bolstered by penis commentary. Hell, even though it's an HT thread maybe now ron can participate, and ro_co can smack him down as usual.