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CHROMAPURE GRAYSCALE & COLOR CALIBRATION FOR DUMMIES
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TomHuffman



Joined: 01 Jun 2010
Posts: 62
Location: Springfield, MO


PostLink    Posted: Mon Dec 29, 2014 8:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote


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Quote:
The online instructions goes with setting initial white balance using the 100% white test pattern (2.2.2.11), sharpness, then grayscale, then gamma, then color.

The PDF manual/help misses the initial white balance setting part and goes into setting grayscale through the white balance tool (page 44). Then goes into setting color, then gamma.


White Balance and grayscale are the same thing. Grayscale is just white balance at multiple points.

Quote:
When adjusting grayscale (the JVC has a 12-point system in the gamma settings - took me forever to figure that out) on lower stimulus settings (say around 10%-40%) they seem to jump around a bit (specifically in red) and it is a little harder to correct. Is this normal?


This is normal. Use the Measurement Smoothing feature to help with this. You can also measure directly from the lens to get more light at low video levels.

The integration time is already optimized, so leave that alone.

Quote:
Last here is color adjustment. The JVC doesn't have a CMS, so I must do the 2.6.1 color decoding adjustment. The initial reading wasn't horrible, with R>6.9 / G>-9.7 / B>-4.8 / M>7.9 / Y>0.9 / C>19.2
Online instructions have you adjust red and magenta through the color and tint functions (2.6.1.8).
The PDF manual/help has you do the same but to red and cyan colors instead (pg 46).

Which way is more correct here? I tried both ways but my blue and green go way negative no matter which I use (after doing either I reset and do the measurements once more to see if they had stayed consistent). Not to mention I'm missing the ability to adjust blue and green as both the online instructions and PDF manual say to do once you finish with red.


The goal is to use a setting that has the smallest error for all colors. I mentioned specific colors only because they are often representative of the whole.

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volkanboy



Joined: 07 Mar 2015
Posts: 4



PostLink    Posted: Sun Mar 08, 2015 11:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello,

I have a question about samsung 55f9000 led tv,i want to calibrate this .

I have chromapure 2.5.7 and standard(licence) where can i find Rgb lowend and Rgb highend in samsung 55f9000/o calibrate this settings?
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TomHuffman



Joined: 01 Jun 2010
Posts: 62
Location: Springfield, MO


PostLink    Posted: Sun Mar 08, 2015 11:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Picture, Advanced Settings, White Balance
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volkanboy



Joined: 07 Mar 2015
Posts: 4



PostLink    Posted: Sun Mar 08, 2015 12:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok thanks for quick replay,i see 2-piont and 10point wich is rgb lowend en wich is Rgb highend(2-piont is that rgblowend and 10 point rgb highend?)
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kal
Forum Administrator


Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 14427
Location: Ottawa, Canada

TV/Projector: JVC DLA-RS56


PostLink    Posted: Sun Mar 08, 2015 3:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

While I don't have this TV, I would imagine under the 2-point menu it would give you 2 points to adjust. That would be RGB lowend and RGB highend. The 10 point probably gives you 10 different points you can adjust (probably 10% to 100% in 10% steps).

Kal

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volkanboy



Joined: 07 Mar 2015
Posts: 4



PostLink    Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2015 10:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thansk Kal,


If i initialize the meter i only see ''Standard, Plasma, CRT, and Front Projection Lens'' i own a X-Rite i1 Display Pro, i can not select led,lcd .

Must i do something else to see this option in chromapure 2.5.7?
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kal
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Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 14427
Location: Ottawa, Canada

TV/Projector: JVC DLA-RS56


PostLink    Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2015 5:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

volkanboy wrote:
Thansk Kal,


If i initialize the meter i only see ''Standard, Plasma, CRT, and Front Projection Lens'' i own a X-Rite i1 Display Pro, i can not select led,lcd .

Must i do something else to see this option in chromapure 2.5.7?

You are using a Display 3 meter, not a Display 3 PRO. See section 1.2.5 of the guide for a complete explanation.

Kal

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volkanboy



Joined: 07 Mar 2015
Posts: 4



PostLink    Posted: Sun Mar 22, 2015 9:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can not se the redline in gamma(chromapure 2.5.7) i see only bleu circles.

My os is windos 7 how can i fix this?
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TomHuffman



Joined: 01 Jun 2010
Posts: 62
Location: Springfield, MO


PostLink    Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2015 12:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

volkanboy wrote:
I can not se the redline in gamma(chromapure 2.5.7) i see only bleu circles.

My os is windos 7 how can i fix this?

European users need to set the PC to use periods for a decimal points and commas for list separators.
In Windows 7 you do this in Control Panel, Region and Language, Additional Settings
Select a period "." for the Decimal Symbol
Select a comma "," for List Separator
In Windows XP the path is Control Panel, Regional and Language Options, Customize.
In Windows 8 the path is Control Panel, Region, Additional Settings.
Make the same changes as listed above.
You can always set these back to the regional default when finished with the session.

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LoGiCa



Joined: 13 Apr 2015
Posts: 2



PostLink    Posted: Mon Apr 13, 2015 10:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Had some questions about Chromapure Pro & Spyder 4.

Started new topic here.

http://www.curtpalme.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=439142#439142
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Arcsaber



Joined: 15 Apr 2015
Posts: 16



PostLink    Posted: Wed Apr 15, 2015 5:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just a reply of appreciation, really:)

I've been looking into calibrating our displays for a while, and I recently managed to win an HP-branded Eye-One off eBay for ~30; given that it would have cost me >35 to rent one for one day, I consider that a cast-iron bargain.

I followed the old version of this guide - HCFR v2.1 (v3+ couldn't see any meters, for some reason), and AVCHD pattern disc.

"Before" greyscales for a Panasonic V20 plasma (forgot to get readings for the primaries):




"After" greyscales for THX and Professional modes - the V20 only has cut and gain white balance adjustments, I should point out:



Cracking result in Pro mode, if I do say so myself, but THX didn't turn out too badly (only a red spike at 90 IRE).


"After" primary and secondaries:



The V20 doesn't have controls for the secondaries, so I'm fairly happy with where they landed, along with the fact that I got the primary dE's lower in Professional mode than in the (fixed) THX mode. The only issue was with the blue - I couldn't get the CIE x-co-ordinate any lower than 0.07 for love nor money. Note that THX mode had a higher peak luminance for the whites; couldn't get much more than 90 in Pro mode, but that one had the better contrast ratio.


Something to watch out for with plasmas, I found: get rid of menus as quickly as possible. It got to the point where menu IR was interfering with my greyscales and I had to wash the screen before I could carry on!
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kal
Forum Administrator


Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 14427
Location: Ottawa, Canada

TV/Projector: JVC DLA-RS56


PostLink    Posted: Wed Apr 15, 2015 9:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Arcsaber wrote:
Just a reply of appreciation, really:)

Glad you enjoyed it!

Quote:
I recently managed to win an HP-branded Eye-One off eBay for ~30; given that it would have cost me >35 to rent one for one day, I consider that a cast-iron bargain.

Not to be the bearer of bad news, but how old is the HP-branded unit? If it's an colorimeter (EyeOne Display LT, 2) like this one here:

http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/NzEwWDk1MA==/z/CA8AAMXQVT9SyO-j/$_35.JPG

And it's more than a few years old then it may have drifted quite a bit and not be overly accurate, while the rented one would most certainly be continuously replaced or recalibrated (you'd expect that for a unit you rent).

Kal

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Arcsaber



Joined: 15 Apr 2015
Posts: 16



PostLink    Posted: Thu Apr 16, 2015 4:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kal wrote:
Arcsaber wrote:
Just a reply of appreciation, really:)

Glad you enjoyed it!

Quote:
I recently managed to win an HP-branded Eye-One off eBay for ~30; given that it would have cost me >35 to rent one for one day, I consider that a cast-iron bargain.

Not to be the bearer of bad news, but how old is the HP-branded unit? If it's an colorimeter (EyeOne Display LT, 2) like this one here:

http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/NzEwWDk1MA==/z/CA8AAMXQVT9SyO-j/$_35.JPG

And it's more than a few years old then it may have drifted quite a bit and not be overly accurate, while the rented one would most certainly be continuously replaced or recalibrated (you'd expect that for a unit you rent).

Kal


Thanks for the heads-up:). Is there any way to check/recalibrate a unit like this with free/cheap stuff? It's "old stock", I think - old, but unused. If that makes sense.

The black level is just "press down hard on something flat", obviously, but is there a way to get accurate primaries in HCFR - or something similar - by, say, shining (near) white light through a primary gel/filter and telling it "this is RED"?

M.
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kal
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Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 14427
Location: Ottawa, Canada

TV/Projector: JVC DLA-RS56


PostLink    Posted: Thu Apr 16, 2015 1:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Arcsaber wrote:
Is there any way to check/recalibrate a unit like this with free/cheap stuff? It's "old stock", I think - old, but unused. If that makes sense.

Using or not using doesn't affect how the meter drifts over time. These colorimeters have a filter in them that degrades over time the same way, regardless of whether the unit's sitting on a shelf, or plugged in and used 24/7.
More info: http://www.curtpalme.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=11436

Quote:
The black level is just "press down hard on something flat", obviously, but is there a way to get accurate primaries in HCFR - or something similar - by, say, shining (near) white light through a primary gel/filter and telling it "this is RED"?

No. Very few meters can be physically recalibrated - only some of the very expensive multi-thousand dollar ones allow the hardware to be recalibrated so that any software can be used.

Instead, when recalibration is done, it's done by using the meter to take measurements and then comparing against a known accurate meter (usually a NIST certified/laboratory grade meter) and the difference is entered into software in the form of an offset. I don't know if the new fork of HCFR supports this (I haven't used it in years) but ChromaPure software does (see: http://www.curtpalme.com/ChromaPure.shtm). This is how we recalibrate meters for use in ChromaPure and is how we create what we call the "PRO" versions of meters too: The meter is measured against a $10K JETI Specbos 1211 (see: http://www.curtpalme.com/ChromaPure_JETI.shtm) and then these offsets become part of your ChromaPure software licence. You can send you meter back in every year or two to get remeasured and a new licence file is generated and a report is also provided to show how far "off" your meter was. The report looks like this:



Different display technologies can present different inaccuracies with colorimeters so the offsets are also specific to what type of display is used, including (but not limited to):

Generic LCD
Samsung Standard backlit LCD
Samsung LED backlit LCD
Sony Standard backlit LCD
Sony LED backlit LCD
LG Standard backlit LCD
LG LED backlit LCD
CRT
Plasma
Front Projection-Screen
Front Projection-Lens

In ChromaPure you choose what type of display you're calibrating when using one of these "PRO" versions of the meter.

This report above was from a brand new out of the box Display 3 (i1 Display Pro). As you can see, some of the errors with certain display types is fairly substantial. It only gets worse over time.

You can read more about how and why this is done on our Display 3 order page here: http://www.curtpalme.com/ChromaPure_EyeOneDisplay3.shtm

See the section called "What is the EyeOne Display 3 PRO?".

Kal

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Arcsaber



Joined: 15 Apr 2015
Posts: 16



PostLink    Posted: Thu Apr 16, 2015 3:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I did consider "cheating" an offset as a fallback:).

My plan was to get some primary gels and shine a torch through them into the meter; the measured xy's for each colour would then become my targets. The filters I'd use would be Lee's "Primary Red", "Primary Green", and "Winter Blue", as I doubt they'd differ much from Rec 709's primaries.

Not sure how I'd go about correcting the WHITE errors, though...
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kal
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Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 14427
Location: Ottawa, Canada

TV/Projector: JVC DLA-RS56


PostLink    Posted: Thu Apr 16, 2015 5:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Arcsaber wrote:
My plan was to get some primary gels and shine a torch through them into the meter; the measured xy's for each colour would then become my targets. The filters I'd use would be Lee's "Primary Red", "Primary Green", and "Winter Blue", as I doubt they'd differ much from Rec 709's primaries.

I'm afraid that would be an incorrect assumption.

CRT projector owners (projectors with 3 tubes, one for each colour) used to do this to try and get their primaries more in line with the Rec.709 standard. While the results were sometimes better than the stock tube red/green/blue colours, there weren't what we'd consider accurate as far as the true Rec.709 numbers which are:

Red primary: x=0.640 / y=0.330
Green primary: x=0.300 / y=0.600
Blue primary: x=0.150 / y=0.060

Here are the results:



In this case the person was using an Electrohome 8500 projector (marked as '8500' on the graph). The targets are the 3 points of the triangle. So you can see that the stock 8500 projector was pretty bad, the gels a bit closer to the green target, and worse for red. For both green and red the gels are not that close to the correct targets.

More info at the bottom of this article: http://www.curtpalme.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=117708#117708

Using gels was something that people experimented with about ~10-14 years ago and was generally not considered accurate.

Kal

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Arcsaber



Joined: 15 Apr 2015
Posts: 16



PostLink    Posted: Thu Apr 16, 2015 8:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting reading... I'm looking at the transmission curves and CIE co-ordinates for the various gels right now, and they're all MILES out - nearly a full point in both directions! I guess it's just impossible to make a gel with a narrow enough hue transmission range.

What about laser pointers? They're as close to monochrome as possible:).
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Arcsaber



Joined: 15 Apr 2015
Posts: 16



PostLink    Posted: Tue Apr 28, 2015 7:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some more shinanigans:)

I ditched the Panny plasma after the white flicker started giving me headaches, and my new toy - a Samsung H6400 - had a lot more to play with in terms of calibration: ten-point white balance and a CMS with primary and secondary controls.

Befores:



Afters:



I must say I'm bowled over at how well this thing did, and there are still improvements to be made - I didn't know the relative luminances of the secondaries (which I've since looked up) so while they're accurate for hue, they aren't quite there for luminance yet. Still, apart from the red and magenta, they're all 1.6 or under, which is fantastic IMO.

The red and magenta I couldn't get any better, sadly, so they're staying at dE 5.0 and 4.1, resp. The CMS has RGB sliders for each colour, and with the red and magenta I was right at the bottom with green, but they were still too green. Master tint control didn't help, either.

This calibration lark is fun, ain't it? Very Happy
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TroubleShooter



Joined: 06 Jul 2015
Posts: 4



PostLink    Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2015 3:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi everyone,

I'm about to get a second handed I1 Dispaly 2 that I can purchase for 60 euros and at the same time wondering if I could do anything good trying to calibrate my projector Acer 1101 as it does not have the RGB HighEnd/LowEnd functions.
It has 6 levels of Degamma and 3 of Color Temperature and individual red-green-blue ajustement possibility.

Now that I read a bit more of that guide, I'm also a bit worried that this second handed product won't be accurate anymore, does it depends on how many times the sensor has been used or on how long did it sat unused ?
Shall I ask the seller since when he has it ?

Last question, does an innacurate sensor still can do a better job than a human eye ?


Thanks for the answers !
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kal
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Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 14427
Location: Ottawa, Canada

TV/Projector: JVC DLA-RS56


PostLink    Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2015 4:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TroubleShooter wrote:
Now that I read a bit more of that guide, I'm also a bit worried that this second handed product won't be accurate anymore

Correct. That would have been my first comment had you not asked.

Quote:
does it depends on how many times the sensor has been used or on how long did it sat unused ?
Shall I ask the seller since when he has it ?

Usage doesn't matter. It's all about time. Higher humidity levels can make it worse too. Some people will seal up their meters in a plastic ziplock bag or similar with some desiccant packs to slow down the drift.

Quote:
Last question, does an innacurate sensor still can do a better job than a human eye ?

That question cannot be answered. Depend on how inaccurate the meter is, depends on how accurately someone could do a calibration by eye.

Kal

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