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Eisemann-Theater Simulation Grade Tubes better than VW1000ES
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stridsvognen
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PostLink    Posted: Wed Nov 27, 2013 12:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote


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Diddern wrote:
stridsvognen wrote:
Francisco wrote:
Diddern is right about the camera thing. I will try to shoot a picture tonight with my Canon D40 with L 2.8 lens. Maybe it will capture this better. Also will take a shot of 72hz resolution.

Strisvognen please try to explain me why we need higher bandwidth? If we take 1080p@60hz we don't go over 165mhz pixel clock. 1080p@72hz we can configure as 817P@72hz because most movies are shot in 2:35 and will give us 148mhz pixel clock. Now 4K is a league to far for the resolving power of a single CRT, so why bother about higher bandwidth????


I think you need to understand some basic stuff about Bandwidth, rise and fall time.. I understand it like how vertical the signal can go.. the time from off to on and the other way around.

If the on off time is not 0 it will be like ramping the signal more or less.

So actualy you need much higher bandwidth than the pixel clock..

To reproduce a 20khz audio in a ok way you need around 6x the bandwidth,

My preamp will do 2,5Mhz all the way true.. from riaa input to line out.

Same for everything else.. Higher bandwidth faster response.

Even at low resolution you will benefit from the faster response.

I dont think running 800P will save you.

So having just the bandwidth needet will let you reach the right output level, having a headroom, or much higher bandwidth will let you reach that level and hold it longer before it needs to be turned off.

Sorry for my drawing skills, but i try to ilustrate black is the digital signal perfect reproduction.. Green a good response on a crt, and the red like yours, a bad response.

The yelow angle ilustrate the bandwidth.. the more vertical the higher bandwidth..

So lower your resolution wont change your rise time, but you will get time to hit the right level.. Maybe.



Question for you mister.

Why is there NO black in 1:1 and even lower down, can you explain that? Then in H and V lines.. in your photos.


Yeah easy, its a CRT.. 2nd the optical focus are not perfect, and the electric focus is not perfect.

Its LCP tubes.. the photo is taken with a ipad..

Look at the Barco, and see what better tubes and focus do.. and match that with the bandwidth of the moddet marquee..

So what we use those shots fore are bandwidth evaluation, and to see if there is any scaling going on.

In my shot you see the black level on the left side of the lower resolution.. Thats outside the range of the blurry dots.

It will never look like a digital.. everyone know that.. And no one with a CRT wants it to look digital.. We kind of like the way the CRT paints the image with no scaling or pixel structure.

Anything else you like to know.?
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Diddern




Joined: 02 Jun 2013
Posts: 821
Location: Norway


PostLink    Posted: Wed Nov 27, 2013 1:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here is a nice pattern that I used a long time ago on my crt.

If you zoom in you see how it shall be shown. Play hehe



Pattern 1080P.jpg
 Description:
 Filesize:  335.29 KB
 Viewed:  2795 Time(s)

Pattern 1080P.jpg


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Andreas21




Joined: 02 Oct 2013
Posts: 582



PostLink    Posted: Wed Nov 27, 2013 1:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stridsvognen wrote:
Diddern wrote:
stridsvognen wrote:
Francisco wrote:
Diddern is right about the camera thing. I will try to shoot a picture tonight with my Canon D40 with L 2.8 lens. Maybe it will capture this better. Also will take a shot of 72hz resolution.

Strisvognen please try to explain me why we need higher bandwidth? If we take 1080p@60hz we don't go over 165mhz pixel clock. 1080p@72hz we can configure as 817P@72hz because most movies are shot in 2:35 and will give us 148mhz pixel clock. Now 4K is a league to far for the resolving power of a single CRT, so why bother about higher bandwidth????


I think you need to understand some basic stuff about Bandwidth, rise and fall time.. I understand it like how vertical the signal can go.. the time from off to on and the other way around.

If the on off time is not 0 it will be like ramping the signal more or less.

So actualy you need much higher bandwidth than the pixel clock..

To reproduce a 20khz audio in a ok way you need around 6x the bandwidth,

My preamp will do 2,5Mhz all the way true.. from riaa input to line out.

Same for everything else.. Higher bandwidth faster response.

Even at low resolution you will benefit from the faster response.

I dont think running 800P will save you.

So having just the bandwidth needet will let you reach the right output level, having a headroom, or much higher bandwidth will let you reach that level and hold it longer before it needs to be turned off.

Sorry for my drawing skills, but i try to ilustrate black is the digital signal perfect reproduction.. Green a good response on a crt, and the red like yours, a bad response.

The yelow angle ilustrate the bandwidth.. the more vertical the higher bandwidth..

So lower your resolution wont change your rise time, but you will get time to hit the right level.. Maybe.



Question for you mister.

Why is there NO black in 1:1 and even lower down, can you explain that? Then in H and V lines.. in your photos.


Yeah easy, its a CRT.. 2nd the optical focus are not perfect, and the electric focus is not perfect.

Its LCP tubes.. the photo is taken with a ipad..

Look at the Barco, and see what better tubes and focus do.. and match that with the bandwidth of the moddet marquee..

So what we use those shots fore are bandwidth evaluation, and to see if there is any scaling going on.

In my shot you see the black level on the left side of the lower resolution.. Thats outside the range of the blurry dots.

It will never look like a digital.. everyone know that.. And no one with a CRT wants it to look digital.. We kind of like the way the CRT paints the image with no scaling or pixel structure.

Anything else you like to know.?


And now you blame the camera?? LOL

And you are welcome to see the pixelstructure on the VW1000 on a 129" 2.35:1 screen here in Norway. And you CRT owners say the picture is so lifelike, I donīt understand that. What is so lifelike and real about it?

_________________
http://www.minhembio.com/21Andreas


Last edited by Andreas21 on Wed Nov 27, 2013 1:21 pm; edited 1 time in total
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stridsvognen
Guest








PostLink    Posted: Wed Nov 27, 2013 1:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Andreas21 wrote:
stridsvognen wrote:
Diddern wrote:
stridsvognen wrote:
Francisco wrote:
Diddern is right about the camera thing. I will try to shoot a picture tonight with my Canon D40 with L 2.8 lens. Maybe it will capture this better. Also will take a shot of 72hz resolution.

Strisvognen please try to explain me why we need higher bandwidth? If we take 1080p@60hz we don't go over 165mhz pixel clock. 1080p@72hz we can configure as 817P@72hz because most movies are shot in 2:35 and will give us 148mhz pixel clock. Now 4K is a league to far for the resolving power of a single CRT, so why bother about higher bandwidth????


I think you need to understand some basic stuff about Bandwidth, rise and fall time.. I understand it like how vertical the signal can go.. the time from off to on and the other way around.

If the on off time is not 0 it will be like ramping the signal more or less.

So actualy you need much higher bandwidth than the pixel clock..

To reproduce a 20khz audio in a ok way you need around 6x the bandwidth,

My preamp will do 2,5Mhz all the way true.. from riaa input to line out.

Same for everything else.. Higher bandwidth faster response.

Even at low resolution you will benefit from the faster response.

I dont think running 800P will save you.

So having just the bandwidth needet will let you reach the right output level, having a headroom, or much higher bandwidth will let you reach that level and hold it longer before it needs to be turned off.

Sorry for my drawing skills, but i try to ilustrate black is the digital signal perfect reproduction.. Green a good response on a crt, and the red like yours, a bad response.

The yelow angle ilustrate the bandwidth.. the more vertical the higher bandwidth..

So lower your resolution wont change your rise time, but you will get time to hit the right level.. Maybe.



Question for you mister.

Why is there NO black in 1:1 and even lower down, can you explain that? Then in H and V lines.. in your photos.


Yeah easy, its a CRT.. 2nd the optical focus are not perfect, and the electric focus is not perfect.

Its LCP tubes.. the photo is taken with a ipad..

Look at the Barco, and see what better tubes and focus do.. and match that with the bandwidth of the moddet marquee..

So what we use those shots fore are bandwidth evaluation, and to see if there is any scaling going on.

In my shot you see the black level on the left side of the lower resolution.. Thats outside the range of the blurry dots.

It will never look like a digital.. everyone know that.. And no one with a CRT wants it to look digital.. We kind of like the way the CRT paints the image with no scaling or pixel structure.

Anything else you like to know.?


And now you blame the camera?? LOL


You guys clearly dont get the point.. The point in that picture is not to show sharpness or black and white.. it holds a different purpose who fits the reason it was taken.. No matter how sh*tty the camera used are..

Your tunnel vision is so narow that you cant see past black and white..

Do you remember what part of the resolution it was pointed at.?

Guess we need to start the resolution debate all over again like you clearly dident get it the first few times..
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Andreas21




Joined: 02 Oct 2013
Posts: 582



PostLink    Posted: Wed Nov 27, 2013 1:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stridsvognen wrote:
Andreas21 wrote:
stridsvognen wrote:
Diddern wrote:
stridsvognen wrote:
Francisco wrote:
Diddern is right about the camera thing. I will try to shoot a picture tonight with my Canon D40 with L 2.8 lens. Maybe it will capture this better. Also will take a shot of 72hz resolution.

Strisvognen please try to explain me why we need higher bandwidth? If we take 1080p@60hz we don't go over 165mhz pixel clock. 1080p@72hz we can configure as 817P@72hz because most movies are shot in 2:35 and will give us 148mhz pixel clock. Now 4K is a league to far for the resolving power of a single CRT, so why bother about higher bandwidth????


I think you need to understand some basic stuff about Bandwidth, rise and fall time.. I understand it like how vertical the signal can go.. the time from off to on and the other way around.

If the on off time is not 0 it will be like ramping the signal more or less.

So actualy you need much higher bandwidth than the pixel clock..

To reproduce a 20khz audio in a ok way you need around 6x the bandwidth,

My preamp will do 2,5Mhz all the way true.. from riaa input to line out.

Same for everything else.. Higher bandwidth faster response.

Even at low resolution you will benefit from the faster response.

I dont think running 800P will save you.

So having just the bandwidth needet will let you reach the right output level, having a headroom, or much higher bandwidth will let you reach that level and hold it longer before it needs to be turned off.

Sorry for my drawing skills, but i try to ilustrate black is the digital signal perfect reproduction.. Green a good response on a crt, and the red like yours, a bad response.

The yelow angle ilustrate the bandwidth.. the more vertical the higher bandwidth..

So lower your resolution wont change your rise time, but you will get time to hit the right level.. Maybe.



Question for you mister.

Why is there NO black in 1:1 and even lower down, can you explain that? Then in H and V lines.. in your photos.


Yeah easy, its a CRT.. 2nd the optical focus are not perfect, and the electric focus is not perfect.

Its LCP tubes.. the photo is taken with a ipad..

Look at the Barco, and see what better tubes and focus do.. and match that with the bandwidth of the moddet marquee..

So what we use those shots fore are bandwidth evaluation, and to see if there is any scaling going on.

In my shot you see the black level on the left side of the lower resolution.. Thats outside the range of the blurry dots.

It will never look like a digital.. everyone know that.. And no one with a CRT wants it to look digital.. We kind of like the way the CRT paints the image with no scaling or pixel structure.

Anything else you like to know.?


And now you blame the camera?? LOL


You guys clearly dont get the point.. The point in that picture is not to show sharpness or black and white.. it holds a different purpose who fits the reason it was taken.. No matter how sh*tty the camera used are..

Your tunnel vision is so narow that you cant see past black and white..

Do you remember what part of the resolution it was pointed at.?


Yes, I do and you still blame the camera. It is also a good pattern to look at sharpness and ansicontrast even if it is not what it is meant for.

Your tunnelvision is so narrow and you are such a CRT fanboy that you will never understand.

I also added this in my last post, but you answered before I could edit: And you are welcome to see the pixelstructure on the VW1000 on a 129" 2.35:1 screen here in Norway. And you CRT owners say the picture is so lifelike, I donīt understand that. What is so lifelike and real about it?

_________________
http://www.minhembio.com/21Andreas


Last edited by Andreas21 on Wed Nov 27, 2013 1:26 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Diddern




Joined: 02 Jun 2013
Posts: 821
Location: Norway


PostLink    Posted: Wed Nov 27, 2013 1:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="stridsvognen"]
Diddern wrote:
stridsvognen wrote:
Francisco wrote:
Diddern is right about the camera thing. I will try to shoot a picture tonight with my Canon D40 with L 2.8 lens. Maybe it will capture this better. Also will take a shot of 72hz resolution.

Strisvognen please try to explain me why we need higher bandwidth? If we take 1080p@60hz we don't go over 165mhz pixel clock. 1080p@72hz we can configure as 817P@72hz because most movies are shot in 2:35 and will give us 148mhz pixel clock. Now 4K is a league to far for the resolving power of a single CRT, so why bother about higher bandwidth????


I think you need to understand some basic stuff about Bandwidth, rise and fall time.. I understand it like how vertical the signal can go.. the time from off to on and the other way around.

If the on off time is not 0 it will be like ramping the signal more or less.

So actualy you need much higher bandwidth than the pixel clock..

To reproduce a 20khz audio in a ok way you need around 6x the bandwidth,

My preamp will do 2,5Mhz all the way true.. from riaa input to line out.

Same for everything else.. Higher bandwidth faster response.

Even at low resolution you will benefit from the faster response.

I dont think running 800P will save you.

So having just the bandwidth needet will let you reach the right output level, having a headroom, or much higher bandwidth will let you reach that level and hold it longer before it needs to be turned off.

Sorry for my drawing skills, but i try to ilustrate black is the digital signal perfect reproduction.. Green a good response on a crt, and the red like yours, a bad response.

The yelow angle ilustrate the bandwidth.. the more vertical the higher bandwidth..

So lower your resolution wont change your rise time, but you will get time to hit the right level.. Maybe.



Question for you mister.

Why is there NO black in 1:1 and even lower down, can you explain that? Then in H and V lines.. in your photos.


Yeah easy, its a CRT.. 2nd the optical focus are not perfect, and the electric focus is not perfect.

Its LCP tubes.. the photo is taken with a ipad..

Look at the Barco, and see what better tubes and focus do.. and match that with the bandwidth of the moddet marquee..

So what we use those shots fore are bandwidth evaluation, and to see if there is any scaling going on.

In my shot you see the black level on the left side of the lower resolution.. Thats outside the range of the blurry dots.

It will never look like a digital.. everyone know that.. And no one with a CRT wants it to look digital.. We kind of like the way the CRT paints the image with no scaling or pixel structure.

Anything else you like to know.?[/quote


I do not talk about digital.


I compare it with Francisco`s and I cant understand how you can compare this on the fact that its :
1. different camera
2. different light settings on camera
3. Different capture time on camera
4. Maybe different screen gain
5. Different light output
5. Sharpness differences
Its impossible to see from the pictures. You need to be there.

And why did you nag my iPhone pic. then?
And you talk lower resolution then you see black?
I will say if I used a crt today I will like it to look as close to the original image as possible.
I sent a pattern for CRT 1080P then you can try to evaluate. Smile
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stridsvognen
Guest








PostLink    Posted: Wed Nov 27, 2013 1:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="Diddern"]
stridsvognen wrote:
Diddern wrote:
stridsvognen wrote:
Francisco wrote:
Diddern is right about the camera thing. I will try to shoot a picture tonight with my Canon D40 with L 2.8 lens. Maybe it will capture this better. Also will take a shot of 72hz resolution.

Strisvognen please try to explain me why we need higher bandwidth? If we take 1080p@60hz we don't go over 165mhz pixel clock. 1080p@72hz we can configure as 817P@72hz because most movies are shot in 2:35 and will give us 148mhz pixel clock. Now 4K is a league to far for the resolving power of a single CRT, so why bother about higher bandwidth????


I think you need to understand some basic stuff about Bandwidth, rise and fall time.. I understand it like how vertical the signal can go.. the time from off to on and the other way around.

If the on off time is not 0 it will be like ramping the signal more or less.

So actualy you need much higher bandwidth than the pixel clock..

To reproduce a 20khz audio in a ok way you need around 6x the bandwidth,

My preamp will do 2,5Mhz all the way true.. from riaa input to line out.

Same for everything else.. Higher bandwidth faster response.

Even at low resolution you will benefit from the faster response.

I dont think running 800P will save you.

So having just the bandwidth needet will let you reach the right output level, having a headroom, or much higher bandwidth will let you reach that level and hold it longer before it needs to be turned off.

Sorry for my drawing skills, but i try to ilustrate black is the digital signal perfect reproduction.. Green a good response on a crt, and the red like yours, a bad response.

The yelow angle ilustrate the bandwidth.. the more vertical the higher bandwidth..

So lower your resolution wont change your rise time, but you will get time to hit the right level.. Maybe.



Question for you mister.

Why is there NO black in 1:1 and even lower down, can you explain that? Then in H and V lines.. in your photos.


Yeah easy, its a CRT.. 2nd the optical focus are not perfect, and the electric focus is not perfect.

Its LCP tubes.. the photo is taken with a ipad..

Look at the Barco, and see what better tubes and focus do.. and match that with the bandwidth of the moddet marquee..

So what we use those shots fore are bandwidth evaluation, and to see if there is any scaling going on.

In my shot you see the black level on the left side of the lower resolution.. Thats outside the range of the blurry dots.

It will never look like a digital.. everyone know that.. And no one with a CRT wants it to look digital.. We kind of like the way the CRT paints the image with no scaling or pixel structure.

Anything else you like to know.?[/quote


I do not talk about digital.


I compare it with Francisco`s and I cant understand how you can compare this on the fact that its :
1. different camera
2. different light settings on camera
3. Different capture time on camera
4. Maybe different screen gain
5. Different light output
5. Sharpness differences
Its impossible to see from the pictures. You need to be there.

And why did you nag my iPhone pic. then?
And you talk lower resolution then you see black?
I will say if I used a crt today I will like it to look as close to the original image as possible.
I sent a pattern for CRT 1080P then you can try to evaluate. Smile


f*ck f*ck f*ck.. How stupid is it possible to be.. The picture is not taken to display sharpness, so it wont hold any use to evaluate sharpness.. why is that so hard to understand.?

So yes a part of the sharpness is lost in the camera, other parts of it is lost in bad focus.. Or the fact its a CRT projector your looking at..
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stridsvognen
Guest








PostLink    Posted: Wed Nov 27, 2013 1:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Andreas21 wrote:
stridsvognen wrote:
Andreas21 wrote:
stridsvognen wrote:
Diddern wrote:
stridsvognen wrote:
Francisco wrote:
Diddern is right about the camera thing. I will try to shoot a picture tonight with my Canon D40 with L 2.8 lens. Maybe it will capture this better. Also will take a shot of 72hz resolution.

Strisvognen please try to explain me why we need higher bandwidth? If we take 1080p@60hz we don't go over 165mhz pixel clock. 1080p@72hz we can configure as 817P@72hz because most movies are shot in 2:35 and will give us 148mhz pixel clock. Now 4K is a league to far for the resolving power of a single CRT, so why bother about higher bandwidth????


I think you need to understand some basic stuff about Bandwidth, rise and fall time.. I understand it like how vertical the signal can go.. the time from off to on and the other way around.

If the on off time is not 0 it will be like ramping the signal more or less.

So actualy you need much higher bandwidth than the pixel clock..

To reproduce a 20khz audio in a ok way you need around 6x the bandwidth,

My preamp will do 2,5Mhz all the way true.. from riaa input to line out.

Same for everything else.. Higher bandwidth faster response.

Even at low resolution you will benefit from the faster response.

I dont think running 800P will save you.

So having just the bandwidth needet will let you reach the right output level, having a headroom, or much higher bandwidth will let you reach that level and hold it longer before it needs to be turned off.

Sorry for my drawing skills, but i try to ilustrate black is the digital signal perfect reproduction.. Green a good response on a crt, and the red like yours, a bad response.

The yelow angle ilustrate the bandwidth.. the more vertical the higher bandwidth..

So lower your resolution wont change your rise time, but you will get time to hit the right level.. Maybe.



Question for you mister.

Why is there NO black in 1:1 and even lower down, can you explain that? Then in H and V lines.. in your photos.


Yeah easy, its a CRT.. 2nd the optical focus are not perfect, and the electric focus is not perfect.

Its LCP tubes.. the photo is taken with a ipad..

Look at the Barco, and see what better tubes and focus do.. and match that with the bandwidth of the moddet marquee..

So what we use those shots fore are bandwidth evaluation, and to see if there is any scaling going on.

In my shot you see the black level on the left side of the lower resolution.. Thats outside the range of the blurry dots.

It will never look like a digital.. everyone know that.. And no one with a CRT wants it to look digital.. We kind of like the way the CRT paints the image with no scaling or pixel structure.

Anything else you like to know.?


And now you blame the camera?? LOL


You guys clearly dont get the point.. The point in that picture is not to show sharpness or black and white.. it holds a different purpose who fits the reason it was taken.. No matter how sh*tty the camera used are..

Your tunnel vision is so narow that you cant see past black and white..

Do you remember what part of the resolution it was pointed at.?


Yes, I do and you still blame the camera. It is also a good pattern to look at sharpness and ansicontrast even if it is not what it is meant for.

Your tunnelvision is so narrow and you are such a CRT fanboy that you will never understand.


Yeah it is.. but you need to put the picture taken in context with what it was ment for.. if i wanted to display sharpness i would need a better camera and work a few days on focus..

But guess that wont fit into your brain..
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Francisco




Joined: 05 Apr 2007
Posts: 305
Location: The Netherlands


PostLink    Posted: Wed Nov 27, 2013 1:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh ohw here we go again Confused
_________________
Philips vacuum cleaner | Trystar double toaster | Car radio with orange plastic memory arrows | Class A Fridge
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Diddern




Joined: 02 Jun 2013
Posts: 821
Location: Norway


PostLink    Posted: Wed Nov 27, 2013 1:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="stridsvognen"]
Diddern wrote:
stridsvognen wrote:
Diddern wrote:
stridsvognen wrote:
Francisco wrote:
Diddern is right about the camera thing. I will try to shoot a picture tonight with my Canon D40 with L 2.8 lens. Maybe it will capture this better. Also will take a shot of 72hz resolution.

Strisvognen please try to explain me why we need higher bandwidth? If we take 1080p@60hz we don't go over 165mhz pixel clock. 1080p@72hz we can configure as 817P@72hz because most movies are shot in 2:35 and will give us 148mhz pixel clock. Now 4K is a league to far for the resolving power of a single CRT, so why bother about higher bandwidth????


I think you need to understand some basic stuff about Bandwidth, rise and fall time.. I understand it like how vertical the signal can go.. the time from off to on and the other way around.

If the on off time is not 0 it will be like ramping the signal more or less.

So actualy you need much higher bandwidth than the pixel clock..

To reproduce a 20khz audio in a ok way you need around 6x the bandwidth,

My preamp will do 2,5Mhz all the way true.. from riaa input to line out.

Same for everything else.. Higher bandwidth faster response.

Even at low resolution you will benefit from the faster response.

I dont think running 800P will save you.

So having just the bandwidth needet will let you reach the right output level, having a headroom, or much higher bandwidth will let you reach that level and hold it longer before it needs to be turned off.

Sorry for my drawing skills, but i try to ilustrate black is the digital signal perfect reproduction.. Green a good response on a crt, and the red like yours, a bad response.

The yelow angle ilustrate the bandwidth.. the more vertical the higher bandwidth..

So lower your resolution wont change your rise time, but you will get time to hit the right level.. Maybe.



Question for you mister.

Why is there NO black in 1:1 and even lower down, can you explain that? Then in H and V lines.. in your photos.


Yeah easy, its a CRT.. 2nd the optical focus are not perfect, and the electric focus is not perfect.

Its LCP tubes.. the photo is taken with a ipad..

Look at the Barco, and see what better tubes and focus do.. and match that with the bandwidth of the moddet marquee..

So what we use those shots fore are bandwidth evaluation, and to see if there is any scaling going on.

In my shot you see the black level on the left side of the lower resolution.. Thats outside the range of the blurry dots.

It will never look like a digital.. everyone know that.. And no one with a CRT wants it to look digital.. We kind of like the way the CRT paints the image with no scaling or pixel structure.

Anything else you like to know.?[/quote


I do not talk about digital.


I compare it with Francisco`s and I cant understand how you can compare this on the fact that its :
1. different camera
2. different light settings on camera
3. Different capture time on camera
4. Maybe different screen gain
5. Different light output
5. Sharpness differences
Its impossible to see from the pictures. You need to be there.

And why did you nag my iPhone pic. then?
And you talk lower resolution then you see black?
I will say if I used a crt today I will like it to look as close to the original image as possible.
I sent a pattern for CRT 1080P then you can try to evaluate. Smile


f*ck f*ck f*ck.. How stupid is it possible to be.. The picture is not taken to display sharpness, so it wont hold any use to evaluate sharpness.. why is that so hard to understand.?

So yes a part of the sharpness is lost in the camera, other parts of it is lost in bad focus.. Or the fact its a CRT projector your looking at..



I wonder Who have a tunnel vision here. My god hehe hehe hehe hehe
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Andreas21




Joined: 02 Oct 2013
Posts: 582



PostLink    Posted: Wed Nov 27, 2013 1:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stridsvognen wrote:
Andreas21 wrote:
stridsvognen wrote:
Andreas21 wrote:
stridsvognen wrote:
Diddern wrote:
stridsvognen wrote:
Francisco wrote:
Diddern is right about the camera thing. I will try to shoot a picture tonight with my Canon D40 with L 2.8 lens. Maybe it will capture this better. Also will take a shot of 72hz resolution.

Strisvognen please try to explain me why we need higher bandwidth? If we take 1080p@60hz we don't go over 165mhz pixel clock. 1080p@72hz we can configure as 817P@72hz because most movies are shot in 2:35 and will give us 148mhz pixel clock. Now 4K is a league to far for the resolving power of a single CRT, so why bother about higher bandwidth????


I think you need to understand some basic stuff about Bandwidth, rise and fall time.. I understand it like how vertical the signal can go.. the time from off to on and the other way around.

If the on off time is not 0 it will be like ramping the signal more or less.

So actualy you need much higher bandwidth than the pixel clock..

To reproduce a 20khz audio in a ok way you need around 6x the bandwidth,

My preamp will do 2,5Mhz all the way true.. from riaa input to line out.

Same for everything else.. Higher bandwidth faster response.

Even at low resolution you will benefit from the faster response.

I dont think running 800P will save you.

So having just the bandwidth needet will let you reach the right output level, having a headroom, or much higher bandwidth will let you reach that level and hold it longer before it needs to be turned off.

Sorry for my drawing skills, but i try to ilustrate black is the digital signal perfect reproduction.. Green a good response on a crt, and the red like yours, a bad response.

The yelow angle ilustrate the bandwidth.. the more vertical the higher bandwidth..

So lower your resolution wont change your rise time, but you will get time to hit the right level.. Maybe.



Question for you mister.

Why is there NO black in 1:1 and even lower down, can you explain that? Then in H and V lines.. in your photos.


Yeah easy, its a CRT.. 2nd the optical focus are not perfect, and the electric focus is not perfect.

Its LCP tubes.. the photo is taken with a ipad..

Look at the Barco, and see what better tubes and focus do.. and match that with the bandwidth of the moddet marquee..

So what we use those shots fore are bandwidth evaluation, and to see if there is any scaling going on.

In my shot you see the black level on the left side of the lower resolution.. Thats outside the range of the blurry dots.

It will never look like a digital.. everyone know that.. And no one with a CRT wants it to look digital.. We kind of like the way the CRT paints the image with no scaling or pixel structure.

Anything else you like to know.?


And now you blame the camera?? LOL


You guys clearly dont get the point.. The point in that picture is not to show sharpness or black and white.. it holds a different purpose who fits the reason it was taken.. No matter how sh*tty the camera used are..

Your tunnel vision is so narow that you cant see past black and white..

Do you remember what part of the resolution it was pointed at.?


Yes, I do and you still blame the camera. It is also a good pattern to look at sharpness and ansicontrast even if it is not what it is meant for.

Your tunnelvision is so narrow and you are such a CRT fanboy that you will never understand.


Yeah it is.. but you need to put the picture taken in context with what it was ment for.. if i wanted to display sharpness i would need a better camera and work a few days on focus..

But guess that wont fit into your brain..


No, I am a neanderthal! And you problem is you donīt understand anything.

The only reason I spent time taking screenshots (I normally never do that) was for you to see how this testpattern really should look like concidering bandwith and sharpness and so on. I agree the bandwith on your CRT looks good on this pattern, but I think the VW1000 looks just as good concidering bandwith and a whole lot better on the other parameters. But to discuss with you is totally meaningless and I have spent way to much time on this. And I think you will never admit that the VW1000 shows this testpattern very very good.

Please spend a week setting the focus on your machine and post the sharper picture here. Wink

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Diddern




Joined: 02 Jun 2013
Posts: 821
Location: Norway


PostLink    Posted: Wed Nov 27, 2013 1:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Francisco wrote:
Oh ohw here we go again Confused


You know what,,,, Mr superman as you know who,, can watch the pattern thing. All day long, and we watch movies agreed Thumbs Up

Do this.... Make the pattern look as good as possible on your CRT.
Then you're done.

A picture is much more than this pattern. Smile
Wink
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Diddern




Joined: 02 Jun 2013
Posts: 821
Location: Norway


PostLink    Posted: Wed Nov 27, 2013 2:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Andreas21 wrote:
stridsvognen wrote:
Andreas21 wrote:
stridsvognen wrote:
Andreas21 wrote:
stridsvognen wrote:
Diddern wrote:
stridsvognen wrote:
Francisco wrote:
Diddern is right about the camera thing. I will try to shoot a picture tonight with my Canon D40 with L 2.8 lens. Maybe it will capture this better. Also will take a shot of 72hz resolution.

Strisvognen please try to explain me why we need higher bandwidth? If we take 1080p@60hz we don't go over 165mhz pixel clock. 1080p@72hz we can configure as 817P@72hz because most movies are shot in 2:35 and will give us 148mhz pixel clock. Now 4K is a league to far for the resolving power of a single CRT, so why bother about higher bandwidth????


I think you need to understand some basic stuff about Bandwidth, rise and fall time.. I understand it like how vertical the signal can go.. the time from off to on and the other way around.

If the on off time is not 0 it will be like ramping the signal more or less.

So actualy you need much higher bandwidth than the pixel clock..

To reproduce a 20khz audio in a ok way you need around 6x the bandwidth,

My preamp will do 2,5Mhz all the way true.. from riaa input to line out.

Same for everything else.. Higher bandwidth faster response.

Even at low resolution you will benefit from the faster response.

I dont think running 800P will save you.

So having just the bandwidth needet will let you reach the right output level, having a headroom, or much higher bandwidth will let you reach that level and hold it longer before it needs to be turned off.

Sorry for my drawing skills, but i try to ilustrate black is the digital signal perfect reproduction.. Green a good response on a crt, and the red like yours, a bad response.

The yelow angle ilustrate the bandwidth.. the more vertical the higher bandwidth..

So lower your resolution wont change your rise time, but you will get time to hit the right level.. Maybe.



Question for you mister.

Why is there NO black in 1:1 and even lower down, can you explain that? Then in H and V lines.. in your photos.


Yeah easy, its a CRT.. 2nd the optical focus are not perfect, and the electric focus is not perfect.

Its LCP tubes.. the photo is taken with a ipad..

Look at the Barco, and see what better tubes and focus do.. and match that with the bandwidth of the moddet marquee..

So what we use those shots fore are bandwidth evaluation, and to see if there is any scaling going on.

In my shot you see the black level on the left side of the lower resolution.. Thats outside the range of the blurry dots.

It will never look like a digital.. everyone know that.. And no one with a CRT wants it to look digital.. We kind of like the way the CRT paints the image with no scaling or pixel structure.

Anything else you like to know.?


And now you blame the camera?? LOL


You guys clearly dont get the point.. The point in that picture is not to show sharpness or black and white.. it holds a different purpose who fits the reason it was taken.. No matter how sh*tty the camera used are..

Your tunnel vision is so narow that you cant see past black and white..

Do you remember what part of the resolution it was pointed at.?


Yes, I do and you still blame the camera. It is also a good pattern to look at sharpness and ansicontrast even if it is not what it is meant for.

Your tunnelvision is so narrow and you are such a CRT fanboy that you will never understand.


Yeah it is.. but you need to put the picture taken in context with what it was ment for.. if i wanted to display sharpness i would need a better camera and work a few days on focus..

But guess that wont fit into your brain..


No, I am a neanderthal! And you problem is you donīt understand anything.

The only reason I spent time taking screenshots (I normally never do that) was for you to see how this testpattern really should look like concidering bandwith and sharpness and so on. I agree the bandwith on your CRT looks good on this pattern, but I think the VW1000 looks just as good concidering bandwith and a whole lot better on the other parameters. But to discuss with you is totally meaningless and I have spent way to much time on this. And I think you will never admit that the VW1000 shows this testpattern very very good.

Please spend a week setting the focus on your machine and post the sharper picture here. Wink



We give him a Good Year Smile
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stridsvognen
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PostLink    Posted: Wed Nov 27, 2013 2:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well maybe i will spend a full year adjusting focus.. And when im done the SONY will be defect, and not be able to display the latest standard, ill keep watching the same stuff as im used to.. going strong the next 20 years.

But at least you plastic fanboys have more money, and can just buy the next model always better than the one you have.

Next time i guess you will get a 8K projector and run 4K source..
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Diddern




Joined: 02 Jun 2013
Posts: 821
Location: Norway


PostLink    Posted: Wed Nov 27, 2013 2:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stridsvognen wrote:
Well maybe i will spend a full year adjusting focus.. And when im done the SONY will be defect, and not be able to display the latest standard, ill keep watching the same stuff as im used to.. going strong the next 20 years.

But at least you plastic fanboys have more money, and can just buy the next model always better than the one you have.

Next time i guess you will get a 8K projector and run 4K source..



Yepp in 20 years when you are done, I have changed projector many times. You are right. If it gets defect I get a new one. Correct

And I am not a plastic fan boy, but a projector fan boy if its crt or plastic (good one) I still choose the best total picture.
And today for me you know.

But you will never understand. Sorry to say.
And I wonder if you use glasses or not, if not ,,,,,specsavers is a god advise.

But now enough is enough bull****.



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Francisco




Joined: 05 Apr 2007
Posts: 305
Location: The Netherlands


PostLink    Posted: Wed Nov 27, 2013 2:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with Andreas, and whats the point of having a projector with high bandwidth and equal lightoutput h/v lines, if you don't have:
- sharper lug tubes
- 4 and 6 pole dynamic astig
- 81 independend digital convergence zones
- digital waveform geometry

There is so much more to proper PQ. Also I think to upscale from 1080p to 4k will always give some compromisons, and it will always be better to have exact panel size as the source. But the question is, can we see it on screen? In case of the VW1000 I think not. Also black level is very, very good. Another question is can we actually see all the resolution that 4k has to offer us?
Does it give us more on our 125" screens? Personally I don't so and for my home theater 1080p is more then enough.
A VW 1000 is a very nice projector and maybe even the BEST but it also cost $$. Personally and I mean personally my 919 comes very close to a good digital and I like the dynamic due to color and blacks, and softness of CRT, best part of it comes that in the end it all was very cheap, so with little expensives and a lot of time fun and effort I get myself best of all.

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Francisco




Joined: 05 Apr 2007
Posts: 305
Location: The Netherlands


PostLink    Posted: Wed Nov 27, 2013 2:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Diddern wrote:
Francisco wrote:
Oh ohw here we go again Confused


You know what,,,, Mr superman as you know who,, can watch the pattern thing. All day long, and we watch movies agreed Thumbs Up

Do this.... Make the pattern look as good as possible on your CRT.
Then you're done.

A picture is much more than this pattern. Smile
Wink


+1 Thumbs Up

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stridsvognen
Guest








PostLink    Posted: Wed Nov 27, 2013 3:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Francisco wrote:
I agree with Andreas, and whats the point of having a projector with high bandwidth and equal lightoutput h/v lines, if you don't have:
- sharper lug tubes
- 4 and 6 pole dynamic astig
- 81 independend digital convergence zones
- digital waveform geometry



See thats a good question..

I can turn the question.. Whats the reason to all those nice features if you dont have bandwidth to resolve the signal.?

I can name a few things you get with the bandwidth, thats higher ansi contrast, just the fact that you can hit the right level on vertical high resolution information.

Now this is just Marquee experience, with the mods i get better gray scale tracking, more linear gamma response, so less color shift in the image. and closer to 6500K without any CMS.

Much better punch.. sharper than non moddet standard setup, able to push the light output higher with no blooming.

So whats seen in the image is much more details from dark to very bright.

Sure that optimal is to have it all.. Thats also why this thread actualy was so interesting to start with, emagine if the Barco can be moddet to the same high bandwidth, with the nice focus and LUG tubes.

Now LUG tubes is not a BARCO thing, its in other Standard machines, inkluding some Marquee models.

I have a red and green set of LUG tubes, new factory mounted in marquee housings.

But ill not put those before i have seen the maximum performance i can drag out of the standard tubes, who seems to last forever..

How much light will the Barco run on your screen without blooming.? And what screen is it.?
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jbmeyer13




Joined: 03 Dec 2010
Posts: 1135



PostLink    Posted: Wed Nov 27, 2013 4:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stridsvognen wrote:
Francisco wrote:
You Clowns guessed it right Thumbs Up CRT (Seos 919 SP) it is. With the latest V10 modification 200mhz bridget chip. 1080p 72hz with a pixel clock around 197, latest Monster HD ISF cable up to 4k, radiance etc, etc.

This shot is taken with an iPhone because you guys like it so much to do so, right upper corner:



What do you think about it? Can it compete with modded Marquee or VW1000?


Sorry to disapoint you, but that look more like 100Mhz.. you miss a lot of bandwidth there. Looks like a nice focus ..

It needs to look more like this. + your focus.


Kurt is correct regarding the 1:1 - 3:3 patterns and how they are supposed to look with regards to color, intensity, etc. Here is a shot similar to Francisco from a stock 03 VIM on an AT screen:


Again, no CRT will match the Sony on this pattern but Kurt's shot (along with some by Mike) are ideal for CRT. No one has posted a photo in recent memory of any other CRT projector resolving this pattern better. Now Kurt, stop farting around with the damn iphone and take a proper Hi-Rez photo with a DSLR.

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Francisco




Joined: 05 Apr 2007
Posts: 305
Location: The Netherlands


PostLink    Posted: Wed Nov 27, 2013 4:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I can turn the question.. Whats the reason to all those nice features if you dont have bandwidth to resolve the signal.?


You can turn it in anything you like Wink
But if Barco made all these fine features they forgot the right bandwidth on a $ 80.000,- projector you think?

I must say you know a lot about CRT technology, and more then I know about bandwidth, but when do you use higher bandwidth? Only on full 1080p@72hz? or do you use some "special porch timings"? I mean 1080P can easily be resolved by a Barco 909 with 180mhz end stages and a retrace time of 1.1us

Scan Frequencies Horizontal: 30-180
kHz autolock
Vertical: 37-240
Hz autolock
Minimal Retrace Time Horizontal:
< 1.1 μs in range 90-180
kHz
< 1.8 μs in range 30-130
kHz
(switching point adjustable between 90 and 130 kHz)
Vertical:
< 200 μs

blooming starts around contrast 95% screen gain 1.2

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