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Diddern
Joined: 02 Jun 2013 Posts: 821 Location: Norway
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Link Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2015 1:09 pm Post subject: |
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I will just say that I feel that we are NOT some kind of idiots when walking into CRT forum, in a thread that claims that a CRT in 2015 are way better than one of the best digital projectors for home Cinema use.
And I also feel that I'm NOT trolling, more the opposite. But I am on a CRT forum and a thread that's in a CRT area.
Some of the guys in this thread has been very very hostile, and on any other forum would have been banned from the thread.
I will say because of very little knowledge, posting stuff that is inrelevant to what we tried to point out.
Andreas and me have no intentions of taking your hobbies away. Just making a point by trying to get proof of this thred owners clames.
Because all I see from Greg Esiemann then mods and new simulation grade tubes does NOT make the picture on a barco much better at all.
But better than the original yes. So leave it with that and be happy.
This because I have done so many years of testing and also side-by-side tests with CRT, and a bunch of digitalis.
Me in the other hand still miss some of the tweaking stuff with CRT. With all my CRTs it was tweaking every time I turned it on.
And on every CRT forum I visits, it's still fun to see that there are so many Enthusiasts left, and still live back in that time when CRT WAS the best.
This has taken too much of my time so I think it's time throw the towel.
But I really want to see the true changes after modifications on your CRTs with different mods. I have a thread for that but seams like no one have the balls to post improve. Wonder why?
But I guess all found out that it's more interesting to be hostile then showing this.
Curt P sorry for using FORUM No intentions of all to offend you personally or any forum, just pointing out that I did not approve the thread owners clames and untrue statements.
Let CRT be CRT and enjoy it as long as it lasts.
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ElTopo
Joined: 07 Nov 2006 Posts: 1608
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Link Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2015 6:50 pm Post subject: |
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....and CRT will last for a long time.....
_________________ Barco Cine 9 the one and only
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Luuk neele
Joined: 04 Mar 2015 Posts: 186 Location: Wijk bij duurstede, the Netherlands.
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Link Posted: Tue Mar 24, 2015 4:13 pm Post subject: |
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one thing has been bugging me for a long time though, why on earth does the JVC have a brown tint all over its image?
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ecrabb Forum Moderator
Joined: 13 Mar 2006 Posts: 15909 Location: Utah
TV/Projector: JVC RS40, Epson 5010
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Link Posted: Tue Mar 24, 2015 4:15 pm Post subject: |
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Luuk neele wrote: | one thing has been bugging me for a long time though, why on earth does the JVC have a brown tint all over its image? |
I never observed nor measured any sort of "brown tint" on my RS45, nor have I ever observed it looking at any other JVC projectors. Upon what do you base this observation?
SC
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kal Forum Administrator
Joined: 06 Mar 2006 Posts: 17860 Location: Ottawa, Canada
TV/Projector: JVC DLA-NZ7
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Link Posted: Tue Mar 24, 2015 4:20 pm Post subject: |
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ecrabb wrote: | Luuk neele wrote: | one thing has been bugging me for a long time though, why on earth does the JVC have a brown tint all over its image? |
I never observed nor measured any sort of "brown tint" on my RS45, nor have I ever observed it looking at any other JVC projectors. Upon what do you base this observation? |
+1. My RS56 doesn't have this issue. It tracked extremely close to Rec709 right out of the box.
Kal
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Andreas21
Joined: 02 Oct 2013 Posts: 582
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Link Posted: Tue Mar 24, 2015 4:47 pm Post subject: |
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kal wrote: | ecrabb wrote: | Luuk neele wrote: | one thing has been bugging me for a long time though, why on earth does the JVC have a brown tint all over its image? |
I never observed nor measured any sort of "brown tint" on my RS45, nor have I ever observed it looking at any other JVC projectors. Upon what do you base this observation? |
+1. My RS56 doesn't have this issue. It tracked extremely close to Rec709 right out of the box.
Kal |
+1
I have seen many of the newest series (not so many of the earlier series) and all of them has been close to bt709 out of the box, and according to a calibrator who calibrates for the biggest store in Norway most are very good out of the box and are "easy" (if that can be said with the internal calibration of a JVC) to calibrate and very seldom has he encountered very bad samples of the latest series.
_________________ http://www.minhembio.com/21Andreas
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Spanky Ham
Joined: 22 Mar 2006 Posts: 5643 Location: Comedy Central
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Link Posted: Tue Mar 24, 2015 5:30 pm Post subject: |
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I have never seen this. It sounds like either a bad pj, faulty calibration or poor environment. Are you basing this off of one JVC or multiple JVCs that you have seen?
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Luuk neele
Joined: 04 Mar 2015 Posts: 186 Location: Wijk bij duurstede, the Netherlands.
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Link Posted: Tue Mar 24, 2015 7:38 pm Post subject: |
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No, off off the pics posted. They all have a brown tinge.
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kal Forum Administrator
Joined: 06 Mar 2006 Posts: 17860 Location: Ottawa, Canada
TV/Projector: JVC DLA-NZ7
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Luuk neele
Joined: 04 Mar 2015 Posts: 186 Location: Wijk bij duurstede, the Netherlands.
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Link Posted: Tue Mar 24, 2015 7:55 pm Post subject: |
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I do know that, that's why I use calibrated monitors.
So posting screenshots proves nothing
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CIR Engineering
Joined: 25 Aug 2008 Posts: 4264 Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany
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Link Posted: Tue Mar 24, 2015 8:13 pm Post subject: |
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Luuk neele wrote: | one thing has been bugging me for a long time though, why on earth does the JVC have a brown tint all over its image? |
I think I know what it is you are seeing. I personally call it a magenta tint. However, I don't think evaluating the color response of a projector on a monitor is at all helpful. I have used Casino Royale ever since the first BD was released because it was the first BD I saw that really had reference quality video (some problems, but still very good). The start of the second chapter with the cobra fighting the mongoose, when they pan over the spectators, on most digital projectors and TV's this will have a magenta cast to the light that should not be there...
That said, this is a problem with almost every digital projector that I calibrate. Many consumer grade digitals including JVC, Sony, and especially Epson work their CMS in the HLS color space (hue lightness saturation) instead of in the RGB color space. What results is a projector's color gamut looking perfectly like Rec709 on paper, but having large areas inside of the color gamut that are not correctly mapped resulting in nonlinear color response and incorrect colors. In fact, most digital projector's color gamut is very nonlinear even when the six primary colors are set perfectly.
This is what I have really loved about the Lumagen Radiance processors on most digital projectors. With a finite element system like the 729-point CMS, the nonlinearity can be almost completely removed from any given digital projector. If you get a chance to see a JVC with a Radiance processor that has been calibrated properly using the 125-point CMS (or higher) you will not see this magenta (brown) tint anymore and the colors will be much closer to what you see on a CRT.
Just for reference however, the DPI, Christie, and Sim2 projectors have perfectly linear color response. This is because the CMS works in RGB space and has also been properly implemented. With those projectors when you calibrate the six primaries at full saturation all colors between the primary colors and white will be nearly perfect. I have very good calibration equipment and I have proven this empirically and repeatedly with DPI, Christie, and Sim2. When I install a Radiance on said projectors and run an auto calibration on them, Chromapure will literally make no changes to any of the 729 points. In other words, the color error deltaE is less than 2 for all of the 729 points. You will never see this on most other digital projectors.
So while most digitals can be made to look good in their calibration reports with a 6-point CMS, there is much more to a perfect calibration.
craigr
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kal Forum Administrator
Joined: 06 Mar 2006 Posts: 17860 Location: Ottawa, Canada
TV/Projector: JVC DLA-NZ7
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Nashou66
Joined: 12 Jan 2007 Posts: 16171 Location: West Seneca NY
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kal Forum Administrator
Joined: 06 Mar 2006 Posts: 17860 Location: Ottawa, Canada
TV/Projector: JVC DLA-NZ7
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Nashou66
Joined: 12 Jan 2007 Posts: 16171 Location: West Seneca NY
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pj-toso
Joined: 19 Mar 2015 Posts: 69 Location: Norway - Oppland
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Link Posted: Tue Mar 24, 2015 11:23 pm Post subject: |
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Hello, this is my first post on this forum. I have followed this thread sporadicly. I have only read parts of this thread. I understand that this is a crt forum.
I know Diddern. We are not friends, but have talked a lot the last 12 years, because we share the same interest for projectors.
He is called a advocate for digital here in the forum, and thats wrong. Because he would be a advocate for whateever that he would consider the best. He is very dedicated when it comes to testing and someone would probaly call him obsessed.
When i read this thread I think several people have agendas that are note very useful for the discussion at hand.
I have visited Diddern 1 time to see his 1000/1100. The projector was calibrated by the best calibrator in Norway. And I must say that I was extremely impressed with naturnalness of the picture. It was so detailed without looking digital, it looked very organic. When viewing Sin City 2 the blacks seemed very deep. Diddern likes light-output so the projector was calibrated with more output than I personally prefer, so I couldnt conclude the black perfomance. I would personally not use the iris and probably close the manual iris all down. I personally can live with 8-10 foot-lamberts in a dark home-theater.
I personally have used almost all crts that are out there. My last crt was a Barco Cine 9 in new condition. I have also calibrated displays since 1998.
To claim that the Eisemann tubes are better than the Sony 1000 is a pretty tall statement. To prove it is another thing. That a few people still prefers crt is very nice, but to others it is hard to understand.
I cant say what is best for another person.
Currently I have no crt. But I will probaly get some later.
I am an advocate for everyone that are enjoying their projector no matter what it is.
I hope I am not getting in trouble with this post.
This forum is so helpful for those embracing the wonder of crt.
Per Johnny
_________________ Disclaimer: My postings are subjective and not facts.
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Curt Palme CRT Tech
Joined: 08 Mar 2006 Posts: 24301 Location: Langley, BC
TV/Projector: All of them!
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Link Posted: Tue Mar 24, 2015 11:45 pm Post subject: |
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Hey Per, welcome!
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mp20748
Joined: 12 Sep 2006 Posts: 5681 Location: Maryland
TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM
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Link Posted: Wed Mar 25, 2015 12:22 am Post subject: |
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SMH
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Spanky Ham
Joined: 22 Mar 2006 Posts: 5643 Location: Comedy Central
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Link Posted: Wed Mar 25, 2015 3:44 am Post subject: |
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Hey Craig,
Have you ever used an eecolor lut box with a digital pj?
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Andreas21
Joined: 02 Oct 2013 Posts: 582
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Link Posted: Wed Mar 25, 2015 6:32 am Post subject: |
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CIR Engineering wrote: | Luuk neele wrote: | one thing has been bugging me for a long time though, why on earth does the JVC have a brown tint all over its image? |
I think I know what it is you are seeing. I personally call it a magenta tint. However, I don't think evaluating the color response of a projector on a monitor is at all helpful. I have used Casino Royale ever since the first BD was released because it was the first BD I saw that really had reference quality video (some problems, but still very good). The start of the second chapter with the cobra fighting the mongoose, when they pan over the spectators, on most digital projectors and TV's this will have a magenta cast to the light that should not be there...
That said, this is a problem with almost every digital projector that I calibrate. Many consumer grade digitals including JVC, Sony, and especially Epson work their CMS in the HLS color space (hue lightness saturation) instead of in the RGB color space. What results is a projector's color gamut looking perfectly like Rec709 on paper, but having large areas inside of the color gamut that are not correctly mapped resulting in nonlinear color response and incorrect colors. In fact, most digital projector's color gamut is very nonlinear even when the six primary colors are set perfectly.
This is what I have really loved about the Lumagen Radiance processors on most digital projectors. With a finite element system like the 729-point CMS, the nonlinearity can be almost completely removed from any given digital projector. If you get a chance to see a JVC with a Radiance processor that has been calibrated properly using the 125-point CMS (or higher) you will not see this magenta (brown) tint anymore and the colors will be much closer to what you see on a CRT.
Just for reference however, the DPI, Christie, and Sim2 projectors have perfectly linear color response. This is because the CMS works in RGB space and has also been properly implemented. With those projectors when you calibrate the six primaries at full saturation all colors between the primary colors and white will be nearly perfect. I have very good calibration equipment and I have proven this empirically and repeatedly with DPI, Christie, and Sim2. When I install a Radiance on said projectors and run an auto calibration on them, Chromapure will literally make no changes to any of the 729 points. In other words, the color error deltaE is less than 2 for all of the 729 points. You will never see this on most other digital projectors.
So while most digitals can be made to look good in their calibration reports with a 6-point CMS, there is much more to a perfect calibration.
craigr |
With the latest JVC line the colorspace (also grayscale/gamma is very good) is almost 100% linear in most of the ones I have seen. And you should really check out the eeColor as it in another league than the Lumagen that has alot of problems. After some tests I threw out my Lumagen when I discovered that it has major flaws, and I bought the eecolor and it does not have the proseesing power the Lumagen has but it is a very good external CMS(it is only a CMS) with up to 65x65x65 point 3D lut.
And the screenshots Diddern and I has posted is calibrated with the eecolor and has no colorshift towards magenta like you claim. Mine is corrected at 4913 Points, and has deltaE less than 1 on all points, and grayscale/gamma is "perfect". It is calibrated with high end equpment like you have and the calibrator is very experienced.
_________________ http://www.minhembio.com/21Andreas
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