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CIR Engineering
Joined: 25 Aug 2008
Posts: 4264
Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany
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 Link Posted: Sun Nov 10, 2013 3:56 pm Post subject: |
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| stridsvognen wrote: | | CIR Engineering wrote: | | stridsvognen wrote: | | i played with mine on the HDQ, and it worked fine, but i prefer not to use the HDQ RGBHV out-.. looks like it wont handle the 1080P 60 hz bandwidth to well. |
The HDQ should be excellent with RGBHV at 1080 60Hz and 72Hz. Look at it on a scope and on screen with a 1:1 pattern and you will see almost no attenuation at all.
craigr |
I did a lot of testing, and was talking with Jim about that, and the HDQ will not do 1080P 72 hz with 1:1 pixel mapping, and running 1080P 60hz, around 160Mhz, the vertical lines did role off to early, so i used the DVI out instead to the moome card, looked better.
And i have other VP that resolves 1080P 60 hz with no problem using the same RGBHV cable and input.
If you know a way to setup 1:1 pixel mapping and run 1920x1080P 72hz RGBHV out ill love to know how. |
I used to do it on the HDQ, but the way the HDQ works for output setups is a lot more complicated and different than the Radiance. I truly can't remember how to do many things with the HDQ anymore and I struggle with 1:1 pixel mapping whenever I work with them.
I used to know the HDQ like the back of my hand. However, I'm afraid the units are too dated for me to be much help anymore. I just don't remember. The last three times I've worked with an HDQ were once at Justin's place and twice at Jeff's place. It took me forever to figure out 817x1920 @72Hz on both their sets with 1:1 pixel mapping.
craigr
_________________
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Murideo Fresco SIX-G HDMI 2.x Multimedia Generator
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*NEW Light Illusion ColourSpace XPT Version β Color Calibration Software
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www.CIR-Engineering.com - craigr@cir-engineering.com
Phone: 865-405-6892
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stridsvognen
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| Link Posted: Sun Nov 10, 2013 4:54 pm Post subject: |
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| CIR Engineering wrote: | | stridsvognen wrote: | | CIR Engineering wrote: | | stridsvognen wrote: | | i played with mine on the HDQ, and it worked fine, but i prefer not to use the HDQ RGBHV out-.. looks like it wont handle the 1080P 60 hz bandwidth to well. |
The HDQ should be excellent with RGBHV at 1080 60Hz and 72Hz. Look at it on a scope and on screen with a 1:1 pattern and you will see almost no attenuation at all.
craigr |
I did a lot of testing, and was talking with Jim about that, and the HDQ will not do 1080P 72 hz with 1:1 pixel mapping, and running 1080P 60hz, around 160Mhz, the vertical lines did role off to early, so i used the DVI out instead to the moome card, looked better.
And i have other VP that resolves 1080P 60 hz with no problem using the same RGBHV cable and input.
If you know a way to setup 1:1 pixel mapping and run 1920x1080P 72hz RGBHV out ill love to know how. |
I used to do it on the HDQ, but the way the HDQ works for output setups is a lot more complicated and different than the Radiance. I truly can't remember how to do many things with the HDQ anymore and I struggle with 1:1 pixel mapping whenever I work with them.
I used to know the HDQ like the back of my hand. However, I'm afraid the units are too dated for me to be much help anymore. I just don't remember. The last three times I've worked with an HDQ were once at Justin's place and twice at Jeff's place. It took me forever to figure out 817x1920 @72Hz on both their sets with 1:1 pixel mapping.
craigr |
I can make 1:1 pixel mapping when both DVI and RGBHV output are active at the same time, but i cant pass 168Mhz pixel clock, not enough to make 1920x1080P 72hz.
Are you saying its possible to make a 1:1 pixel mapping with only RGBHV output active, and get a 195Mhz pixel clock.?
Anyway.. If the analog output dont have enough bandwidth to resolve 1080P 60hz, i doubt it will be much better with 72hz.
Im sure its not visible on a standard CRT, but with the high bandwidth MP mods its not ok.
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CIR Engineering
Joined: 25 Aug 2008
Posts: 4264
Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany
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| Link Posted: Sun Nov 10, 2013 5:41 pm Post subject: |
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| stridsvognen wrote: |
I can make 1:1 pixel mapping when both DVI and RGBHV output are active at the same time, but i cant pass 168Mhz pixel clock, not enough to make 1920x1080P 72hz.
Are you saying its possible to make a 1:1 pixel mapping with only RGBHV output active, and get a 195Mhz pixel clock.?
Anyway.. If the analog output dont have enough bandwidth to resolve 1080P 60hz, i doubt it will be much better with 72hz.
Im sure its not visible on a standard CRT, but with the high bandwidth MP mods its not ok. |
You can't get 195MHz pixel clock out of the HDQ at all. BUT you should be able to get enough to make 1080p 72Hz with standard 1080p timings (1125x2200 pixels). I suppose this could not be enough for a Marquee however because of the terrible raster ringing that some machines exhibit. If you need to add a lot of blanking to hide the raster ringing than it won't work.
You don't need to look at the bandwidth on the face of a CRT to evaluate, so whatever "standard" CRT you are referring to is not relevant. Look at the output of a multiburst on an oscilloscope and see if there is attenuation or not. I recall the HDQ was really excellent though maybe I am remembering wrong. Do you have an HDPPro? That would be worth looking at as well.
Back in the days of the HDP units we didn't have such good A/D decoders as are found in the current Moome cards and EXT that show less than 5% attenuation at 1080 72Hz. Back then, some noticeable attenuation was expected so again perhaps my memory makes me think of the HDP line much more fondly than it really was
I actually think Jim is not remembering this correctly as well. It may surprise you how much even he has forgotten about his own creation. If I had an HDQ or HDPPro here I would put it on the scope for you, but I don't have any around anymore.
craigr
_________________
*NEW JETI 1501-HiRes 2nm Spectroradiometer
JETI 1211 Spectroradiometer
Photo Research PR-650 Spectroradiometer
Klein K10-A Colorimeter
X-Rite i1Pro2 Spectroradiometer & Spyder Colorimeters *For JVC auto-calibration when Klein & Jeti are not applicable
Murideo Fresco SIX-G HDMI 2.x Multimedia Generator
Murideo Fresco SIX-A HDMI 2.x Analyzer
*NEW Light Illusion ColourSpace XPT Version β Color Calibration Software
Light Illusion LightSpace XPT Pro Version 10.x Color Calibration Software
*NEW OMARDRIS JVC Software Patch to use K10-A and Jeti with JVC OEM AutoCal Software!
Sencore CR7000 CRT Tube Analyzer / Rejuvenater
Authorized Dealer for Lumagen & just about everything worth buying
www.CIR-Engineering.com - craigr@cir-engineering.com
Phone: 865-405-6892
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stridsvognen
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| Link Posted: Sun Nov 10, 2013 5:51 pm Post subject: |
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Its ok Craig.. Its just toys here.. Im using the Radiance XS+ and the moome card with MP bandwidth mod, it works better than anything else i tested, im just curious if there is anything better..
The HDQ have a realy nice 3D comb filter, and laserdisc looks good ( not good but better than normal)
Whats the point in this thread must be the stripper.. And it looks to me like your testing confirm what i see on screen.. It performs very nice, and can be recomended for anyone needing a HDMI- HDMI HDCP stripper.
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CIR Engineering
Joined: 25 Aug 2008
Posts: 4264
Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany
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| Link Posted: Sun Nov 10, 2013 6:07 pm Post subject: |
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I think discussing analog VP performance is relevant to the thread though because many people may be interested in using this splitter to enable the analog outputs on their VP.
I think with your setup the only time you would want to use the HDQ would be with LD? This isn't relevant to the thread, but you may want to try simply using the HDQ as a line doubler instead of running at 1080p.
craigr
_________________
*NEW JETI 1501-HiRes 2nm Spectroradiometer
JETI 1211 Spectroradiometer
Photo Research PR-650 Spectroradiometer
Klein K10-A Colorimeter
X-Rite i1Pro2 Spectroradiometer & Spyder Colorimeters *For JVC auto-calibration when Klein & Jeti are not applicable
Murideo Fresco SIX-G HDMI 2.x Multimedia Generator
Murideo Fresco SIX-A HDMI 2.x Analyzer
*NEW Light Illusion ColourSpace XPT Version β Color Calibration Software
Light Illusion LightSpace XPT Pro Version 10.x Color Calibration Software
*NEW OMARDRIS JVC Software Patch to use K10-A and Jeti with JVC OEM AutoCal Software!
Sencore CR7000 CRT Tube Analyzer / Rejuvenater
Authorized Dealer for Lumagen & just about everything worth buying
www.CIR-Engineering.com - craigr@cir-engineering.com
Phone: 865-405-6892
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stridsvognen
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| Link Posted: Sun Nov 10, 2013 6:22 pm Post subject: |
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| CIR Engineering wrote: | I think discussing analog VP performance is relevant to the thread though because many people may be interested in using this splitter to enable the analog outputs on their VP.
I think with your setup the only time you would want to use the HDQ would be with LD? This isn't relevant to the thread, but you may want to try simply using the HDQ as a line doubler instead of running at 1080p.
craigr |
If we take the gamma corection out, ill prefer to use the DVDO VP50, Calibre Vantage HD2, or Crystalio 2 for RGBHV out,
They are way more simple and fast to setup, and perfect to just pass HDMI input to RGBHV 1:1 pixel perfect output.
They all works fine with the splitter / stripper, and handles 165Mhz, and have HDMI inputs. against the DVI on HDQ.
The Crystalio have 20 point gamma corection, so thats hard to beat, and its the best for laserdisc,
I payed 77£ for the Crystalio 2 3800
200$ for the HDQ
100$ for the Calibre vantage HD2
?? for the DVDO VP50
I have the HDfury 2 and 3 and prefer all the VPs with the stripper over any of the HDfury.
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CIR Engineering
Joined: 25 Aug 2008
Posts: 4264
Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany
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| Link Posted: Sun Nov 10, 2013 9:39 pm Post subject: |
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| stridsvognen wrote: | | CIR Engineering wrote: | I think discussing analog VP performance is relevant to the thread though because many people may be interested in using this splitter to enable the analog outputs on their VP.
I think with your setup the only time you would want to use the HDQ would be with LD? This isn't relevant to the thread, but you may want to try simply using the HDQ as a line doubler instead of running at 1080p.
craigr |
If we take the gamma corection out, ill prefer to use the DVDO VP50, Calibre Vantage HD2, or Crystalio 2 for RGBHV out,
They are way more simple and fast to setup, and perfect to just pass HDMI input to RGBHV 1:1 pixel perfect output.
They all works fine with the splitter / stripper, and handles 165Mhz, and have HDMI inputs. against the DVI on HDQ.
The Crystalio have 20 point gamma corection, so thats hard to beat, and its the best for laserdisc,
I payed 77£ for the Crystalio 2 3800
200$ for the HDQ
100$ for the Calibre vantage HD2
?? for the DVDO VP50
I have the HDfury 2 and 3 and prefer all the VPs with the stripper over any of the HDfury. |
The HDF2 was a total mess in terms or analog signal quality. The HDF3 was better with standard resolutions, but still rather off the mark. Moome's new EXT is quite good with clarity and BW, but has some usability issues. I think the scalers with RGBHV outputs are definitely better than any external options for DA conversion so I am not surprised you like it best.
craigr
_________________
*NEW JETI 1501-HiRes 2nm Spectroradiometer
JETI 1211 Spectroradiometer
Photo Research PR-650 Spectroradiometer
Klein K10-A Colorimeter
X-Rite i1Pro2 Spectroradiometer & Spyder Colorimeters *For JVC auto-calibration when Klein & Jeti are not applicable
Murideo Fresco SIX-G HDMI 2.x Multimedia Generator
Murideo Fresco SIX-A HDMI 2.x Analyzer
*NEW Light Illusion ColourSpace XPT Version β Color Calibration Software
Light Illusion LightSpace XPT Pro Version 10.x Color Calibration Software
*NEW OMARDRIS JVC Software Patch to use K10-A and Jeti with JVC OEM AutoCal Software!
Sencore CR7000 CRT Tube Analyzer / Rejuvenater
Authorized Dealer for Lumagen & just about everything worth buying
www.CIR-Engineering.com - craigr@cir-engineering.com
Phone: 865-405-6892
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Nashou66
Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16171
Location: West Seneca NY
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stridsvognen
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| Link Posted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 8:35 am Post subject: |
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I think we can all agree that the HDQ is a pita to setup. And that its a nice unit if you know how.
And the 20$ stripper just makes it better.
If someone gets a free CRT and a old VP like a DVDO VP30-50 they are up rolig very cheep with the stripper, and hard to do much better unless you want to buy a late moome card.
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benareeno
Joined: 22 Mar 2006
Posts: 1614
Location: ottawa, canada
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| Link Posted: Wed Nov 13, 2013 6:29 am Post subject: |
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so do we have an unequivocal model number that I can buy?? I am jazzed to get one of these...and do rgbhv from my Lumagen.
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stridsvognen
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benareeno
Joined: 22 Mar 2006
Posts: 1614
Location: ottawa, canada
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| Link Posted: Wed Nov 13, 2013 6:42 am Post subject: |
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just ordered it...hope it's good!
Ben
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stridsvognen
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| Link Posted: Wed Nov 13, 2013 7:14 am Post subject: |
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| benareeno wrote: | just ordered it...hope it's good!
Ben |
Hope you get the right one.. And that it will do good in your setup.
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VideoGrabber
Joined: 09 Apr 2006
Posts: 933
Location: Michigan
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| Link Posted: Wed Nov 13, 2013 3:42 pm Post subject: |
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| benareeno wrote: | | so do we have an unequivocal model number that I can buy?? I am jazzed to get one of these...and do rgbhv from my Lumagen. |
Ha, ha. Shirley, you jest.  These not only usually have no Model number, sometimes they don't even have a Manuf. name! 
That said, if you ordered from the same source, and they haven't switched suppliers in the interim, you should be OK. I've seen working units from Sanoxy, EtekCity, OREI, NoNameInc, etc. Models HD-102, HDMI-102F, '1x2 Splitter', etc... basically bogus, made up model names.
From my reading on the web, if what you wind up with is in a metal box, it will probably 'work'. If it's in a plastic case, it probably won't. The other indicator is if it claims compatibility with PS3, it likely will work.
_________________
- Tim
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VideoGrabber
Joined: 09 Apr 2006
Posts: 933
Location: Michigan
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| Link Posted: Wed Nov 13, 2013 3:51 pm Post subject: |
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Oh, and current units don't seem to suffer from the overheating issue the original versions did. Even when using the external supply. Go figure.
Or maybe I'm just not pumping as many MHz signal through mine as those whose units were frying in a pan. Just hooked to a cable-box output, and does nothing without the AC supply plugged in. It may behave differently with other sources, with more current available on their HDMI outputs.
_________________
- Tim
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ecrabb
Forum Moderator
Joined: 13 Mar 2006
Posts: 15909
Location: Utah
TV/Projector: JVC RS40, Epson 5010
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| Link Posted: Wed Nov 13, 2013 4:30 pm Post subject: |
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I'm ordering one of these bad boys right now. Even though I have a (supposedly) completely HDCP-compliant signal chain with nary a single "sketchy" device, handshaking is a frickin' train wreck.
Main Sources in Use:
DirecTV HR22
AppleTV
Oppo BDP-103
Sony PS3 (less frequent)
HTPC (irregular use)
Toshiba XA1 (not even connected)
Switcher:
Integra DHC-9.9
Projector:
JVC RS45
That's it. Nothing strange, no sh*tty cables. The weird thing is, about half the time it works perfectly. Switching inputs and getting a picture takes a long time - sometimes 5-10 seconds - but at least it works. Then there's the rare occasion like the other night when I have to dick with the system for like FIVE MINUTES switching sources, power-cycling sources, switching inputs on projector... When, finally, after much angry cussing and swearing and the vain in my forehead has reached max PSI, I hit the magic combination and get a mother-effing picture.
Everything was fine with the HD Fury and CRT. Switched to the JVC and it all went to hell. Figures. 
I don't know if it's a handshake issue, or an EDID issue, but I'm going to find out... This is much cheaper than the Dr. HDMI, so I'm starting here.
Stupid HDMI.
SC
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stridsvognen
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| Link Posted: Wed Nov 13, 2013 4:48 pm Post subject: |
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ecrabb. If you use it direct after your oppo, and split the signal running one to the projector, and another to your Integra, im quite sure you need to use the 5V PS.
Hope it will solve your problem.. HDMI is a PITA when not working right. My JVC is also teasing with some sources.
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VideoGrabber
Joined: 09 Apr 2006
Posts: 933
Location: Michigan
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| Link Posted: Wed Nov 13, 2013 6:11 pm Post subject: |
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| CIR Engineering wrote: | All right, this thing is flipping awesome, I love it. Everything works nearly perfectly with this little splitter.
... My 720p 96Hz is using 195MHz digital bandwidth so it's really pushing the limits of HDMI and the thing passed it! |
According to its "spec sheet", it handles up to 225 MHz.
| Quote: | | There is no default EDID on the splitter so you can forget what I said about reprogramming the EDID. The splitter seems to capture the EDID data from the display device (output) and then emulates (copies) it to the input of the splitter. This is actually typical behavior from a splitter and most likely it will favor output 1 or 2 for EDID capture depending on how the builder programmed it. |
I don't believe there is any favoritism. Whenever either of the outputs undergoes a transition, it does its 4-sec EDID handshake, takes the least common denominator, then reports that back to the source. Thus both outputs always get a signal they can handle, but one may wind up 'down-shifting' when the other is plugged in or turned on.
| Quote: | | Something kind of cool... With a minor modification to the board, the splitter could actually be used to capture and then emulate EDID from any display device or a Lumagen. This would be done by enabling write protect to the Atmel 24C08 on pin six by connecting to VCC. A simple jumper could be installed to switch pin 7 between VCC and ground. |
With this EDID-lock, would that eliminate the handshake when the outputs change? The reason I ask is because if so, then for those with fixed configs (like ecrabb, for example), when turning something new on (or switching to it) that would eliminate one of the handshaking delays, and bring a pic online that much faster.
That's what some expensive HDMI switchers will do... they dedicate a SiI HDMI authorizer chip to each input, so whatever input you switch to has already been authorized. Eliminates the delays when cycling through devices.
_________________
- Tim
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ecrabb
Forum Moderator
Joined: 13 Mar 2006
Posts: 15909
Location: Utah
TV/Projector: JVC RS40, Epson 5010
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| Link Posted: Wed Nov 13, 2013 7:44 pm Post subject: |
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| stridsvognen wrote: | | ecrabb. If you use it direct after your oppo, and split the signal running one to the projector, and another to your Integra, im quite sure you need to use the 5V PS. |
I'm already using both HDMI outputs on the Oppo; one goes to the prepro, and the other goes directly to the JVC input 2 for 3D.
I'm hoping I can just put it between the prepro and the projector... From some of the comments, just putting it between switcher and display (and not even using the second output) solves the problem for some.
| stridsvognen wrote: | | Hope it will solve your problem.. HDMI is a PITA when not working right. My JVC is also teasing with some sources. |
I'd be quick to blame the JVC, since everything was working fine before I swapped the HD Fury/G70 for the JVC. But, what I've learned in the last year or two actually working with a wide variety of devices (at work) is that it's most often just a certain combination of devices which is the problem. It causes people trouble though, because they swap out one device - say the projector - with another, it works, so they determine that was the problem. What I've learned is that you can probably swap more than one device and "fix" the problem. In my case, I could probably swap out the display OR the switcher (prepro) and the situation would probably be resolved.
Another thing I've noticed is that the more expensive the devices (like my Integra), the more likely the problems are to occur. I've seen a system about like mine not work with an Anthem AVR or processor. That's two high-end pieces from the same manufacturer that wouldn't work in a simply bedroom system with a cable box, Apple TV, Dune, and Roku. Problems handshaking, sparkles, etc. We dropped in a low-end under $500 Onkyo, and it worked flawlessly.
There are standards, but there is no industry-wide testing or certification so end-users can be sure of interoperability. There's just no guarantee that one source will work some switcher/display combo. It's a crapshoot.
One of the big retailers that everybody loves to hate is doing more to push testing and certification forward than the rest of the industry combined. It's one reason that some of the run-of-the-mill devices work better than the more boutique stuff... The low-end stuff has been through the gauntlet with all the common sources, while the boutique stuff hasn't.
Don't even get me started on the physical connector.
Regards,
SC
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ecrabb
Forum Moderator
Joined: 13 Mar 2006
Posts: 15909
Location: Utah
TV/Projector: JVC RS40, Epson 5010
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| Link Posted: Wed Nov 13, 2013 7:57 pm Post subject: |
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BTW, the "$25 stripper" should be on her way here on the slow boat from China.
$19.79 with shipping. 
SC
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