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choosing between oppos
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zaphod




Joined: 16 Jun 2006
Posts: 2002
Location: Cloverdale


PostLink    Posted: Mon Aug 05, 2013 1:30 am    Post subject: choosing between oppos Reply with quote


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i've been looking to get an oppo player, looking at the 95 as it still does 1080p over component.

however ...

there is an oppo 83se locally available for $500
there is an oppo 95 NIB (it's been sitting for a year) available for $925

the 95 has balanced outs (i can take advantage of those, but probably will not - see below) and two HDMI if i want to keep my video and analog chains separate. and the 95 does 3D (which i have never seen, nor really want to).

the 83se is no slouch in the analog or video department

i have a very good redbook transport and DAC combo (museatex) and no SACD, i'll probably only use the 7.1 analog outs for trueHD as my bryston does not decode that.

so while i *could* plug the balanced L/R into my 2 channel pre, i probably will not use the oppo for redbook unless my current transport dies.


so my question is - local 83se for $500 or NIB 95 for $925

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stridsvognen
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PostLink    Posted: Mon Aug 05, 2013 9:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You might want to check up on the 1080P component output thing..The 83 can do it., but im quire sure the analog sunset have removed that option on the Oppo 93/95.
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HogPilot




Joined: 21 Jan 2010
Posts: 2383


TV/Projector: Vizio P702ui-B3, Pioneer Elite Pro-151FD & 111FD


PostLink    Posted: Mon Aug 05, 2013 1:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Based on current Audiogon prices ($650-$775) - and the $1195 MSRP of the newer BDP-105 - I think the $925 asking price on the BDP-95 is a bit steep. I do know that the 83SE was a modified version of the 83, whereas the 95/105 were designed from the ground up separately from the 93/103 (although the 93/95 and 103/105 do share the same respective video sections).
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ecrabb wrote:
Curt Palme wrote:
Interesting, Mac isn't returning my emails. Go figure.

He's mad at us for making Hog a moderator. He took his ball and went home.

SC


Last edited by HogPilot on Mon Aug 05, 2013 10:06 pm; edited 1 time in total
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stridsvognen
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PostLink    Posted: Mon Aug 05, 2013 1:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

HogPilot wrote:
Based on current Audiogon prices ($650-$775) - and the $1195 MSRP of the newer BDP-105 - I think the $925 asking price on the BDP-95 is a bit steep. I do know that the 83SE was a modified version of the 83, whereas the 95/105 were designed from the ground up separately from the 93/103 (although the 93/95 and 103/105 do share the same respective video sections).

If you decide to go with the 83SE, keep in mind that some of the audio internals underwent a re-design when Lexicon re-badged the unit. Both Oppo and Lexicon worked on the changes, which were made to the audio section to gain THX compliance. If you can get an 83SE that was made after this time, that would be preferable.


What has the 83 SE to do with the lexicon.? it looks very well documented that the lexicon is a standard 83 trown inside a 2nd box.

If possible i would love to try out the Theta Compli Blu, WHO is also the 83, but with different power surply.

I think the 83 is still the best option for componen video output.
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HogPilot




Joined: 21 Jan 2010
Posts: 2383


TV/Projector: Vizio P702ui-B3, Pioneer Elite Pro-151FD & 111FD


PostLink    Posted: Mon Aug 05, 2013 10:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stridsvognen wrote:
HogPilot wrote:
Based on current Audiogon prices ($650-$775) - and the $1195 MSRP of the newer BDP-105 - I think the $925 asking price on the BDP-95 is a bit steep. I do know that the 83SE was a modified version of the 83, whereas the 95/105 were designed from the ground up separately from the 93/103 (although the 93/95 and 103/105 do share the same respective video sections).

If you decide to go with the 83SE, keep in mind that some of the audio internals underwent a re-design when Lexicon re-badged the unit. Both Oppo and Lexicon worked on the changes, which were made to the audio section to gain THX compliance. If you can get an 83SE that was made after this time, that would be preferable.


What has the 83 SE to do with the lexicon.? it looks very well documented that the lexicon is a standard 83 trown inside a 2nd box.

If possible i would love to try out the Theta Compli Blu, WHO is also the 83, but with different power surply.

I think the 83 is still the best option for componen video output.


Easy there, chief. My mistake - I had thought that the Lexicon unit was based on the SE, not the stock 83. My comments about the changes to the 83 (non-SE) still apply - units manufactured after Lexicon started rebadging them do have THX-compliant audio internals (even though Oppo didn't pay for the THX badging, only Lexicon did).

And unless Oppo's website (BDP-83SE and BDP-95) is incorrect, neither the 83 nor the 95 can output 1080p via component - they're limited to 1080i, and can only do that for non-restricted video content. If the OP can get the 95 for something closer to market prices (I still think $925 is way too much), it has a host of improvements and extra features over the 83 in terms of audio, which seems to be of interest. They're both solid players though.

In terms of audio performance on the 95, read this:

http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/transports/oppo-bdp-93/oppo-bdp-93-bdp-95-on-the-bench

I'll try to dig up 83SE measurements in a bit.

_________________
ecrabb wrote:
Curt Palme wrote:
Interesting, Mac isn't returning my emails. Go figure.

He's mad at us for making Hog a moderator. He took his ball and went home.

SC
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stridsvognen
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PostLink    Posted: Mon Aug 05, 2013 11:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ill test my 83 tomorow, im quite sure it do 1080P 60 Hz out on component with blu ray material, dont remember if it upscale sd material on the component out.

I know the Cambridge 751 ( OPPO 93) only output max 576P on component.

Audio is a hard thing to argue.. For sure i never liked the analog output of any oppo player.. worse was the 95.

I prefer the image from the 83, and if i would have to select another oppo that cant output 1080P on component ill take the 93 or 103, no noisy ventilator, and extra transformer for audio.

Anyway a good surround processor will do better audio via SPDIF than any analog out of a blu ray player
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zaphod




Joined: 16 Jun 2006
Posts: 2002
Location: Cloverdale


PostLink    Posted: Tue Aug 06, 2013 2:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dunno stridsvognen - the oppos use pretty damn good dac chips.

i think that the 925 for the oppo 95 is based on the fact that it's NIB. I think that if i get the 83se and use the difference for CMS i;ll be ahead of the game.

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HogPilot




Joined: 21 Jan 2010
Posts: 2383


TV/Projector: Vizio P702ui-B3, Pioneer Elite Pro-151FD & 111FD


PostLink    Posted: Tue Aug 06, 2013 5:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

From the BDP-83SE User Manual, p. 12:

"When playing a Blu-ray Disc, video resolution over the component output can be up to 1080i. 1080p content will be interlaced into 1080i signal for the component output.

Video up-conversion over the component output is only available for unencrypted discs such as home video and consumer-created contents. Most commercially pressed DVD discs are CSS-encrypted and will be limited to 480i/480p resolution. This restriction applies to the component output only. The HDMI output is protected with HDCP and has no such restriction."

BDP-95 User Manual says the exact same thing on p. 13.

Seems pretty clear-cut to me: both will output up to 1080i over component, assuming the content doesn't place restrictions on the output. Any CSS-enabled DVDs will be limited to 480i/p. BD will be interlaced to 1080i60, but that's not a big deal since commercial content doesn't exist higher than 1080p30, which can fit completely into a 1080i60 stream.

zaphod wrote:
dunno stridsvognen - the oppos use pretty damn good dac chips.

i think that the 925 for the oppo 95 is based on the fact that it's NIB. I think that if i get the 83se and use the difference for CMS i;ll be ahead of the game.


I'd agree about the 83SE over the 95 at the prices you gave. However with the warranty on the 95 only lasting 2 years from the date of initial purchase, it can be as brand-new-in-box as it wants, but the owner has eaten most of its warranty while sitting in that box. Bottom line is I still think the 95 is overpriced, YMMV.

_________________
ecrabb wrote:
Curt Palme wrote:
Interesting, Mac isn't returning my emails. Go figure.

He's mad at us for making Hog a moderator. He took his ball and went home.

SC
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stridsvognen
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PostLink    Posted: Tue Aug 06, 2013 9:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://www.oppodigital.com/products.asp

NIB latest model. full warranty. All the latest features, no ventilator!! HDMI indput..!!


http://www.curtpalme.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=34147

Component 1080P out for sure....

Total Price 600$


500$ for a old oppo83 SE is way overpriced, just as a old stock 95 for 925$
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HogPilot




Joined: 21 Jan 2010
Posts: 2383


TV/Projector: Vizio P702ui-B3, Pioneer Elite Pro-151FD & 111FD


PostLink    Posted: Tue Aug 06, 2013 1:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zaph: just so everyone here is clear, you're looking for 1080p via component, and solid analog outs to pass 7.1 sound to an older outboard receiver or preamp? In other words, HDMI isn't an option for either audio or video for you?
_________________
ecrabb wrote:
Curt Palme wrote:
Interesting, Mac isn't returning my emails. Go figure.

He's mad at us for making Hog a moderator. He took his ball and went home.

SC
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zaphod




Joined: 16 Jun 2006
Posts: 2002
Location: Cloverdale


PostLink    Posted: Tue Aug 06, 2013 2:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i can do HDMI because i have an HDfury. i'm just worried that downstream the PTB in licensing land will close off that route to get analog 1080p via the HDMI port.

so if i can get 1080p from component in a respected player, i want to get it. i thought that the oppos did that, but the manual excerpt you posted flys in the face of that happening.

sigh.

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mc86




Joined: 20 Sep 2008
Posts: 765
Location: pittsburgh, pa

TV/Projector: ECP 4500 (Vidikron box), ECP4500+, wanting 07MS/07MTS, evaluating pc soft-blend


PostLink    Posted: Tue Aug 06, 2013 5:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree your thinking of getting the 83SE and rolling the difference into a CMS seems the way to go.

If the HDFury gets the ax, a whole bunch of us will be up the creek. I have an 83 (non-SE) coupled to an Outlaw 970. I use the 83's 7-channel analog exactly as you are thinking and am happy with it for multichannel pcm, SACD, trueHD, etc. My outlaw unit does a nice job, too.

I am not an audiophile and have acceptable in-wall speakers and a just decent sub, so my rack is nicer than my speakers and room. Not sure how serious a listener you are.

What ever happened with how you setup things with the low ceiling (if I'm recalling correctly)?

bests,
Matt
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stridsvognen
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PostLink    Posted: Tue Aug 06, 2013 6:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

zaphod wrote:
i can do HDMI because i have an HDfury. i'm just worried that downstream the PTB in licensing land will close off that route to get analog 1080p via the HDMI port.

so if i can get 1080p from component in a respected player, i want to get it. i thought that the oppos did that, but the manual excerpt you posted flys in the face of that happening.

sigh.


HD fury, or mome is the way to get 1080P out of HDMI,

I just tested the 83 component out

Hog pilot is right the max output is 1080i on component, from blu ray content, and 576P from DVD / SD but thats for the OPPO83, the next generation 93/95 its only 480/576P for all HDCP content, and now they cant put analog output on the players anymore.

Its finaly over to copy movies to tape in full resolution direct from the player.. Thumbs Up
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stridsvognen
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PostLink    Posted: Tue Aug 06, 2013 6:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mc86 wrote:
I agree your thinking of getting the 83SE and rolling the difference into a CMS seems the way to go.

If the HDFury gets the ax, a whole bunch of us will be up the creek. I have an 83 (non-SE) coupled to an Outlaw 970. I use the 83's 7-channel analog exactly as you are thinking and am happy with it for multichannel pcm, SACD, trueHD, etc. My outlaw unit does a nice job, too.

I am not an audiophile and have acceptable in-wall speakers and a just decent sub, so my rack is nicer than my speakers and room. Not sure how serious a listener you are.

What ever happened with how you setup things with the low ceiling (if I'm recalling correctly)?

bests,
Matt


Whats the benefits on the 83SE over the new 103.? price is the same.. and then the warranty..
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HogPilot




Joined: 21 Jan 2010
Posts: 2383


TV/Projector: Vizio P702ui-B3, Pioneer Elite Pro-151FD & 111FD


PostLink    Posted: Tue Aug 06, 2013 6:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stridsvognen wrote:
Whats the benefits on the 83SE over the new 103.? price is the same.. and then the warranty..


His Bryston doesn't decode the HD audio codecs, so the only way to get those at full resolution is to let the player decode them and then output them via analog. If he uses optical or coax, he only gets core (i.e. lossy) audio on all channels, or he can go full resolution but only in stereo L/R. Thus analog out will yield the highest quality sound, but this also means that the quality of the DAC matters, and the DACs in the 83SE are significantly superior to the 103. Plus, he can use the stereo analog outs down the road with the 4x stacked DACs per channel if his current transport craps out.

_________________
ecrabb wrote:
Curt Palme wrote:
Interesting, Mac isn't returning my emails. Go figure.

He's mad at us for making Hog a moderator. He took his ball and went home.

SC
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stridsvognen
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PostLink    Posted: Tue Aug 06, 2013 6:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

HogPilot wrote:
stridsvognen wrote:
Whats the benefits on the 83SE over the new 103.? price is the same.. and then the warranty..


His Bryston doesn't decode the HD audio codecs, so the only way to get those at full resolution is to let the player decode them and then output them via analog. If he uses optical or coax, he only gets core (i.e. lossy) audio on all channels, or he can go full resolution but only in stereo L/R. Thus analog out will yield the highest quality sound, but this also means that the quality of the DAC matters, and the DACs in the 83SE are significantly superior to the 103. Plus, he can use the stereo analog outs down the road with the 4x stacked DACs per channel if his current transport craps out.


I have the 83 and had the 93 and 95,and none of them is hi-end audio players, actualy the worse was the one with the best specs.. There is just more to audio than stacked dacs in my opinion..

I also much prefer DD or DTS via SPDIF than any 7.1 from any player.. There s a hole load of sh*t happening after it leaves the player, to it gets out of the surround reciver.

The 103 have multi channel analog output.

So before getting all exited about HD audio and stacked dac chips its maybe a idea to look whats going on in the surround processor when inputting multi channel analog audio.. is there any AD DA converter in the chain, and how is the volume controled..
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HogPilot




Joined: 21 Jan 2010
Posts: 2383


TV/Projector: Vizio P702ui-B3, Pioneer Elite Pro-151FD & 111FD


PostLink    Posted: Tue Aug 06, 2013 7:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stridsvognen wrote:
HogPilot wrote:
stridsvognen wrote:
Whats the benefits on the 83SE over the new 103.? price is the same.. and then the warranty..


His Bryston doesn't decode the HD audio codecs, so the only way to get those at full resolution is to let the player decode them and then output them via analog. If he uses optical or coax, he only gets core (i.e. lossy) audio on all channels, or he can go full resolution but only in stereo L/R. Thus analog out will yield the highest quality sound, but this also means that the quality of the DAC matters, and the DACs in the 83SE are significantly superior to the 103. Plus, he can use the stereo analog outs down the road with the 4x stacked DACs per channel if his current transport craps out.


I have the 83 and had the 93 and 95,and none of them is hi-end audio players, actualy the worse was the one with the best specs.. There is just more to audio than stacked dacs in my pinion..


That's great that that's your opinion, but the measurements - and plenty of expert reviews - speak for themselves and contradict your position. The 83SE matches or outperforms plenty of gear costing several times as much. The side-effects of bias and the relativity of our senses need not be regurgitated here. If what you have works for you, that's great; but using your highly biased senses as a basis for an absolute opinion such as the one you've presented above - especially one that flies in the face of scientific fact - is nonsense.

stridsvognen wrote:
I also much prefer DD or DTS via SPDIF than any 7.1 from any player.. There s a hole load of sh*t happening after it leaves the player, to it gets ot of the surround reciver.


What are you talking about? It is a FACT that a lossless DTS or DDTHD stream contains far more resolution and dynamic range than any DD or DTS lossy track. There are countless measurements, respected reviewers, and end users that stand in stark opposition to your statement above (I'm seeing a trend here). Because of the restrictions placed upon HD audio, the only way to access lossless audio without HDMI is to decode it in the player and convert it to analog. Again, if you personally like the compressed sound of lossy codecs, good for you. But don't start telling anyone that the sound quality will be better (i.e. truer to the original) as compared to a lossless track. That's asinine.

stridsvognen wrote:
The 03 have multi channel analog output.


No one here has questioned that. What's your point?

stridsvognen wrote:
So before getting all exited about HD audio and stacked dac chips its maybe a idea to look whats going on inthe surround processor when inputting multi channel analog audio.. is there any AD DA converter in the chain, and how is the volume controled..


And here we come the crux of your ramblings. You're busy being an apologist for your lack of lossless, HD audio in your system, and you're backing it with doomsday hypotheticals since real-world data both eludes you and won't support your opinion. Why bother asking the OP what his actual setup is when you can just present the worst-case scenario of the implementation of digital room correction forcing high-quality analog audio through a poorly-implemented ADC -> processing -> DAC chain so that it somehow ends up sounding worse than lossy, compressed audio?

There's someone here getting "exited [sic]" indeed. I can't wait for your evocation of the dreaded jitter-monster, as it rears its ugly head amidst another imaginary, malfunctioning processing chain in your next round of "I don't need lossless HD audio anyways" nonsense.

_________________
ecrabb wrote:
Curt Palme wrote:
Interesting, Mac isn't returning my emails. Go figure.

He's mad at us for making Hog a moderator. He took his ball and went home.

SC
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stridsvognen
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PostLink    Posted: Tue Aug 06, 2013 8:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

HogPilot wrote:
stridsvognen wrote:
HogPilot wrote:
stridsvognen wrote:
Whats the benefits on the 83SE over the new 103.? price is the same.. and then the warranty..


His Bryston doesn't decode the HD audio codecs, so the only way to get those at full resolution is to let the player decode them and then output them via analog. If he uses optical or coax, he only gets core (i.e. lossy) audio on all channels, or he can go full resolution but only in stereo L/R. Thus analog out will yield the highest quality sound, but this also means that the quality of the DAC matters, and the DACs in the 83SE are significantly superior to the 103. Plus, he can use the stereo analog outs down the road with the 4x stacked DACs per channel if his current transport craps out.


I have the 83 and had the 93 and 95,and none of them is hi-end audio players, actualy the worse was the one with the best specs.. There is just more to audio than stacked dacs in my pinion..


That's great that that's your opinion, but the measurements - and plenty of expert reviews - speak for themselves and contradict your position. The 83SE matches or outperforms plenty of gear costing several times as much. The side-effects of bias and the relativity of our senses need not be regurgitated here. If what you have works for you, that's great; but using your highly biased senses as a basis for an absolute opinion such as the one you've presented above - especially one that flies in the face of scientific fact - is nonsense.

stridsvognen wrote:
I also much prefer DD or DTS via SPDIF than any 7.1 from any player.. There s a hole load of sh*t happening after it leaves the player, to it gets ot of the surround reciver.


What are you talking about? It is a FACT that a lossless DTS or DDTHD stream contains far more resolution and dynamic range than any DD or DTS lossy track. There are countless measurements, respected reviewers, and end users that stand in stark opposition to your statement above (I'm seeing a trend here). Because of the restrictions placed upon HD audio, the only way to access lossless audio without HDMI is to decode it in the player and convert it to analog. Again, if you personally like the compressed sound of lossy codecs, good for you. But don't start telling anyone that the sound quality will be better (i.e. truer to the original) as compared to a lossless track. That's asinine.

stridsvognen wrote:
The 03 have multi channel analog output.


No one here has questioned that. What's your point?

stridsvognen wrote:
So before getting all exited about HD audio and stacked dac chips its maybe a idea to look whats going on inthe surround processor when inputting multi channel analog audio.. is there any AD DA converter in the chain, and how is the volume controled..


And here we come the crux of your ramblings. You're busy being an apologist for your lack of lossless, HD audio in your system, and you're backing it with doomsday hypotheticals since real-world data both eludes you and won't support your opinion. Why bother asking the OP what his actual setup is when you can just present the worst-case scenario of the implementation of digital room correction forcing high-quality analog audio through a poorly-implemented ADC -> processing -> DAC chain so that it somehow ends up sounding worse than lossy, compressed audio?

There's someone here getting "exited [sic]" indeed. I can't wait for your evocation of the dreaded jitter-monster, as it rears its ugly head amidst another imaginary, malfunctioning processing chain in your next round of "I don't need lossless HD audio anyways" nonsense.


Can you name me one surround processor that dont have any loss pasing analog multi channel in out..?

Ill not argue against HD Audio.. But pass analog signals true a digital surround processor, thats not optimal..

Ill not pick up your personal attack, but if u have anything against me personaly shoot me a pm and we can pick on each other in privat.. I did see some of the last thread where u were flying high ...

I prefer to argue the subject..
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zaphod




Joined: 16 Jun 2006
Posts: 2002
Location: Cloverdale


PostLink    Posted: Wed Aug 07, 2013 3:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mc86 wrote:

What ever happened with how you setup things with the low ceiling (if I'm recalling correctly)?

bests,
Matt


i ended up getting a split pack from Curt, but due a trio of medical issues, family issues and two kids the whole basement reno has slipped and slid when we need it the most.

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zaphod




Joined: 16 Jun 2006
Posts: 2002
Location: Cloverdale


PostLink    Posted: Wed Aug 07, 2013 3:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

stridsvognen wrote:

Can you name me one surround processor that dont have any loss pasing analog multi channel in out..?


i belive that the bryston SP3 does that - the analog section (including the 7.1 bypass) is completely distinct from the digital.

i'd love to compare the bryston HD decode with the oppo, but the SP3 is way out of my league. i only have the SP1.7 with 5.1 analog input.

as for lossy DTS vs non-lossy - well there are always laserdiscs.

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