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kal Forum Administrator
Joined: 06 Mar 2006 Posts: 17859 Location: Ottawa, Canada
TV/Projector: JVC DLA-NZ7
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Link Posted: Wed Jul 17, 2013 10:01 pm Post subject: UPS recommendation for JVC RS56 digital projector? |
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We've been having a lot of quick power off/on fluctuations over the last few days where the power goes off and then comes back on. While I'm sure this will all get fixed, it makes me wonder if I should stick a UPS before my JVC RS56 projector so that it has time to cool the bulb and shut down properly. Supposedly cutting power without allowing the fans to run for 2-4 minutes after to cool the bulb shortens the bulb life length.
This is definitely one of those "hard to gauge" things. A few power outages may shorten the lifespan of the bulb, but is that really going to cost more than the UPS itself?
I'm generally not a big fan of any sort of filtering/suppression on power given how most things today use switched mode power supplies.
The projector draws 360W so I was thinking a 450W / 750VA unit like this APC BE750G Power Saving Battery Back-UPS for about $90:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000Z80ICM/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=B000Z80ICM&linkCode=as2&tag=curtpalmecrtp-20
Basically just something that gives me enough time to shut it down so that the fans can keep running for ~5 mins to cool things off.
Anyone have thoughts on this?
I assume I don't need a "true" sine wave UPS and that the somewhat messed up square wave that these low cost UPS' put out (more like a 170v square wave) is fine given that the projector has a switching power supply can probably run anywhere from ~90-240 volts. A switch mode power supplies basically just rectifies AC to DC so I'm assuming that waveform distortion doesn't matter either.
Now that said, some high end PCs seem to require true sine wave power. I'm not sure why, so I'm confused.
A true sine wave UPS like the APC SMC1500 Smart-UPS is well over $300 so you're starting to get to the cost of a whole replacement bulb which just gets silly and is not something that seems worth it...
Kal
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nuttall_chris
Joined: 08 Mar 2006 Posts: 832 Location: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
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Link Posted: Thu Jul 18, 2013 1:13 am Post subject: |
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My RS2 won't run at all with one of those 'square wave' supplies. The projector shuts down instantly when the main power goes down and continues to make a horrible buzzing sound until I unplug it.
Maybe with your newer RS56 it will be fine....but maybe not.
Chris
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kal Forum Administrator
Joined: 06 Mar 2006 Posts: 17859 Location: Ottawa, Canada
TV/Projector: JVC DLA-NZ7
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Nashou66
Joined: 12 Jan 2007 Posts: 16171 Location: West Seneca NY
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Link Posted: Thu Jul 18, 2013 1:41 am Post subject: |
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kal wrote: | Good to know Chris. That doesn't bode well. There must be more going on in the RS2 power supply that I think, and who knows if the RS56 is the same.
A pure sign wave UPS would work but paying $300 "just in case" the projector power goes out doesn't make any sense to me.
Kal |
A hot lamp in close proximity to the panels might damage them. Id use some sort of emergency power supply to keep the fans running till the unit cools down.
Athanasios
_________________ Don't blame your underwear for your crooked ass~ unknown Greek philosopher
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kal Forum Administrator
Joined: 06 Mar 2006 Posts: 17859 Location: Ottawa, Canada
TV/Projector: JVC DLA-NZ7
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Link Posted: Thu Jul 18, 2013 1:48 am Post subject: |
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Interesting.
This is the first I hear of sudden power outages damaging the LCoS panels... I had always read that it may damage the bulbs, but I've never heard it mentioned that the panels being damaged.
Is this something you've heard about actually happening Athanasios? (Though I suppose it would be pretty hard to prove / disprove unless someone had it happen to them and it caused immediate damage).
Kal
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Last edited by kal on Thu Jul 18, 2013 2:03 am; edited 1 time in total
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Nashou66
Joined: 12 Jan 2007 Posts: 16171 Location: West Seneca NY
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Link Posted: Thu Jul 18, 2013 1:58 am Post subject: |
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kal wrote: | Interesting.
This is the first I hear of sudden power outages damaging the LCoS panels... I had always read that it may damage the bulbs, but I've never heard it mentioned that the panels being damaged.
Is this something you've heard about Athanasios? (Though I suppose it would be pretty hard to prove / disprove unless someone had it happen to them and it caused immediate damage).
Kal |
Not that I heard about it but I have thought about it. Those lamps get hot!!
Nashou
_________________ Don't blame your underwear for your crooked ass~ unknown Greek philosopher
"Republicans believe every day is the Fourth of July, but the Democrats believe every day is April 15." --- President Reagan
One Smart Dog!!!
Marquee High Performance Bellows now shipping!!
Marquee Modifications and Performance Enhancement
Marquee C-element and Bellow removal
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ecrabb Forum Moderator
Joined: 13 Mar 2006 Posts: 15909 Location: Utah
TV/Projector: JVC RS40, Epson 5010
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Link Posted: Thu Jul 18, 2013 4:27 am Post subject: |
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Kal,
CyberPower makes some line-interactive UPS's w/pure sine-wave output, and for little, if any more money than APC's simulated-wave UPS's. The reviews look really good on it...
http://www.amazon.com/electronics/dp/B00429N18S/curtpalmecrtp-20
I just bought a cheaper simulated-wave version for a friend's corporate AV install for some basic power to keep an HDMI matrix switcher, Dish DVR, Apple TV, and a network switch up through brownouts. It's this model:
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B001E08PF2/curtpalmecrtp-20
From what I can tell, it's the OEM for this SnapAV white label version, which is usually sold by dealers for about double:
http://www.snapav.com/p-522-ep-400-ups-8ps-825.aspx
For the little bit of difference, I wish I'd gone with the sine-wave model! Sine-wave, and a way nicer-looking piece to sit in the rack.
SC
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mr_ro_co
Joined: 08 May 2006 Posts: 1643 Location: Santa Fe NM
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Link Posted: Thu Jul 18, 2013 5:52 am Post subject: |
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Kal,
There are numerous reasons why switch mode power supplies with their typical leading power factor and/or active power factor correction can have a hard time with the high distortion voltage wave form being produced by cheap saw tooth line interactive UPS. There are also reasons why such a UPS will have trouble sourcing current satisfactorily to switch mode power supplies. The current waveform such supplies present to the mains assumes certain voltage source capabilities that typically do not reside in cheap line interactive UPS with very high voltage waveform distortion.
What you want to power condition and protect your projector as well as give you plenty of battery runtime to either ride through or give plenty of shutdown time is a quality double conversion UPS from the likes of Liebert/Emerson, Eaton/Powerware, APC/Schneider Electric, etc. I personally use a 2kVA Liebert for my high dollar A/V gear. These cost money. Mine was around $1800, but you can probably find a good one on eBay with spent batteries for a lot less. Throw a couple of new VRLA AGMs at it like commodity Optimas or something and you are good to go. A 500 VA to 1000 VA UPS would be appropriate to support your projector.
I wouldn't trust your projector to any cheap no-name saw tooth line-interactive UPS. Very low quality, very high distortion junk. Maybe useful for keeping your wi-fi router up during a power outage, but not appropriate for an expensive device like your projector.
But that said, I wouldn't use a quality double conversion UPS to protect against an abrupt loss of power. I would assume your projector is designed to deal with such events. I would use a real UPS for power conditioning to protect against any power quality problems and also afford you the time for graceful projector shutdown in the event of a utility power outage.
Best,
Steve
_________________ Not only is there no god, try finding a plumber on Sunday!
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HogPilot
Joined: 21 Jan 2010 Posts: 2383
TV/Projector: Vizio P702ui-B3, Pioneer Elite Pro-151FD & 111FD
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Link Posted: Thu Jul 18, 2013 12:36 pm Post subject: |
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The lamp is not right next to the panels in any of the JVC projectors (at least since the RS1), there is no threat of damage to the panels with power loss. If I can find a picture of the internals I'll post it, but the light has to travel through a light tunnel to a splitter that then directs the light the three LCoS panels. In some of the JVCs this path is folded, in others it is straight, but it puts the panels a good distance away from the bulb.
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ecrabb wrote: | Curt Palme wrote: | Interesting, Mac isn't returning my emails. Go figure. |
He's mad at us for making Hog a moderator. He took his ball and went home.
SC |
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kal Forum Administrator
Joined: 06 Mar 2006 Posts: 17859 Location: Ottawa, Canada
TV/Projector: JVC DLA-NZ7
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macgyver655
Joined: 22 Aug 2007 Posts: 8508
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Link Posted: Thu Jul 18, 2013 5:40 pm Post subject: |
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Last edited by macgyver655 on Sat Jul 27, 2013 1:51 pm; edited 1 time in total
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kal Forum Administrator
Joined: 06 Mar 2006 Posts: 17859 Location: Ottawa, Canada
TV/Projector: JVC DLA-NZ7
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HogPilot
Joined: 21 Jan 2010 Posts: 2383
TV/Projector: Vizio P702ui-B3, Pioneer Elite Pro-151FD & 111FD
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Link Posted: Fri Jul 19, 2013 11:50 am Post subject: |
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Those pics look like the result of a fan failure while the bulb is still running. The amount of energy directed at (and absorbed by) light engine components while the bulb is on is significant - remember those lamps put out 4,000-7,000 lumens. Once the lamp is off, yes it is sill hot, but it's not generating any more heat. I've never seen or heard of that kind of damage resulting from a power failure while a unit is running. Maybe it would be more likey in a super-cheap unit, but not the higher-priced HT models that we are talking about here.
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ecrabb wrote: | Curt Palme wrote: | Interesting, Mac isn't returning my emails. Go figure. |
He's mad at us for making Hog a moderator. He took his ball and went home.
SC |
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kal Forum Administrator
Joined: 06 Mar 2006 Posts: 17859 Location: Ottawa, Canada
TV/Projector: JVC DLA-NZ7
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Link Posted: Fri Jul 19, 2013 2:09 pm Post subject: |
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While I'm sure the bulbs run hot, I run my RS56 in low lamp power. After a few hours of running the exhaust is just barely warm and this is with the fans running slow.They never kick into high speed as happens if you run the bulb on high. I can't imagine that a sudden loss of power is going to do a lot of damage to the unit inside (this is purely speculative of course).
It's also big projector - I'm happy that higher end model manufacturers are no longer trying to make these units as tiny as possible but are instead allowing enough breathing room inside to avoid cooking them from the inside out. As Steve mentioned, I would like to think that the projector is designed to deal with events such as sudden power loss since form factor (size) isn't one of their primary concerns when they designed these units.
Kal
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macgyver655
Joined: 22 Aug 2007 Posts: 8508
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Link Posted: Fri Jul 19, 2013 3:52 pm Post subject: |
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Last edited by macgyver655 on Sat Jul 27, 2013 1:53 pm; edited 1 time in total
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mr_ro_co
Joined: 08 May 2006 Posts: 1643 Location: Santa Fe NM
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kal Forum Administrator
Joined: 06 Mar 2006 Posts: 17859 Location: Ottawa, Canada
TV/Projector: JVC DLA-NZ7
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Link Posted: Sat Jul 20, 2013 6:15 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks for the link Steve. That's a nice looking UPS.
That said, I don't think it's worth spending close to 10% of the cost of the projector to protect against possible issues that may arise due to sudden power failures. At least not at the rate that we have power failures around my neighbourhood.
I've put almost 600 hours on the projectors so far (in ~7 months) and have yet to experience one power outage while it's running. Probably because we tend to use it more in the evenings and the outages we've experienced are mostly happening during the day - maybe because we're still in a construction zone (?).
(Yesterday was an exception - we had a large storm come through and it knocked power out for ~12 hours for ~8000 homes).
If things get worse, I'll re-assess.
Kal
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HogPilot
Joined: 21 Jan 2010 Posts: 2383
TV/Projector: Vizio P702ui-B3, Pioneer Elite Pro-151FD & 111FD
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Link Posted: Tue Jul 23, 2013 9:39 pm Post subject: |
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macgyver655 wrote: | HogPilot wrote: | Those pics look like the result of a fan failure while the bulb is still running. The amount of energy directed at (and absorbed by) light engine components while the bulb is on is significant - remember those lamps put out 4,000-7,000 lumens. Once the lamp is off, yes it is sill hot, but it's not generating any more heat. I've never seen or heard of that kind of damage resulting from a power failure while a unit is running. Maybe it would be more likey in a super-cheap unit, but not the higher-priced HT models that we are talking about here. |
I'm not sure why you would think a fan failure would be any different then a power failure. If a fan fails, the monitoring circuit shuts down the complete projector in the range of uS.
And even if the fan fail circuit also fails, there is a thermal sensor mounted right on the lamp cage. This also, when triggered shuts down in the uS range. There are redundant fail safes for instant shutdown. |
I should have been more clear - I meant that that sort of burning seemed to be indicative of insufficient airflow while the bulb was still running, whatever the cause was. The cause was never even made clear in either of those rear projection TV threads (it could have been many things, including poor ventilation design that was limited to that model of TV), but I've yet to see even a remotely similar post with any front projector on AVS. More on that later.
macgyver655 wrote: | Also note, that the internal lamp temp is so high that even after shutdown, if no fan is then running, the lamps outside temp increases. This temp increase is then funneled through the light tunnel just like the lamps light is funneled to it's perspective locations. |
Correct; however as kal already pointed out, front-projector light engines are hardly as compact as rear-projection light engines. There's a lot more room and a lot more ventilation, so in terms of energy production and dissipation the two are quite dissimilar.
macgyver655 wrote: | Finally, I posted my previous comment not to say that anything would happen, just to be aware of possibilities. And the filter pic was just to show what a burned filter looks like, however they are out of a JVC projection unit.
And 1 last thing. That fact that something has not been heard about does not negate an issue. Especially in this instance where the only JVC PRO projector repair facility in Ca. does not reveal repaired info.. |
Could this happen to a front projector, as it happened to that very different RPTV? Anything is a possibility, albeit an incredibly small one in this case. Without positive proof of such an issue, I see no reason for it to be a concern, despite our ability to imagine the most dire of outcomes. I've been in the digital projector forums on AVS since '06 - although there are a lot of great contributors over there, a small group of the regulars are some of the pickiest, whiniest people I've encountered. This is especially true of the JVC crowd, which is quite large - just look at the monstrosities (I mean threads) about bulb issues going back to the 5th gen or CMS issues going back to the 3rd gen. If light engine damage due to power loss were a likely or recurring problem, it is highly likely that it would be addressed ad nauseam. The RPTV thread that you posted your pics from was limited to a single, older model TV and only had a couple replies.
My main point is that, based on my 6 years of experience with JVCs in my theater since the RS1 (I've owned two of them, plus an RS2, RS35, RS50, and RS55), optical engine damage due to power loss shouldn't be a major concern; furthermore, no one has yet to post about such a problem in any of the owner's threads. Thus, unless power losses were a very common event for me, I'd be reluctant to spend the kind of money required for a sufficient UPS to guard against them. YMMV.
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ecrabb wrote: | Curt Palme wrote: | Interesting, Mac isn't returning my emails. Go figure. |
He's mad at us for making Hog a moderator. He took his ball and went home.
SC |
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kal Forum Administrator
Joined: 06 Mar 2006 Posts: 17859 Location: Ottawa, Canada
TV/Projector: JVC DLA-NZ7
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Link Posted: Tue Jul 23, 2013 10:46 pm Post subject: |
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HogPilot wrote: | I've been in the digital projector forums on AVS since '06 - although there are a lot of great contributors over there, a small group of the regulars are some of the pickiest, whiniest people I've encountered. This is especially true of the JVC crowd, which is quite large - just look at the monstrosities (I mean threads) about bulb issues going back to the 5th gen or CMS issues going back to the 3rd gen. If light engine damage due to power loss were a likely or recurring problem, it is highly likely that it would be addressed ad nauseam. The RPTV thread that you posted your pics from was limited to a single, older model TV and only had a couple replies.
My main point is that, based on my 6 years of experience with JVCs in my theater since the RS1 (I've owned two of them, plus an RS2, RS35, RS50, and RS55), optical engine damage due to power loss shouldn't be a major concern; furthermore, no one has yet to post about such a problem in any of the owner's threads. Thus, unless power losses were a very common event for me, I'd be reluctant to spend the kind of money required for a sufficient UPS to guard against them. YMMV. |
I feel the same way. While I haven't spent a ton of time over at AVS pouring over JVC threads I have probably spent hundreds of hours total over the last ~10 years following digitals as they progress and there have been lots of threads/issues that have arisen, but never anything about JVC panels melting. Polarizing panels on some other older digital models yes, but not JVCs.
I agree with HogPilot that for this series of JVC digitals, I wouldn't be putting a UPS on one either to avoid heat related issues. My 2 cents, YMMV, etc.
Kal
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macgyver655
Joined: 22 Aug 2007 Posts: 8508
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Link Posted: Tue Jul 23, 2013 11:45 pm Post subject: |
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Last edited by macgyver655 on Sat Jul 27, 2013 1:55 pm; edited 1 time in total
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