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SEOS 919 aka Barco 909 SP
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jbltecnicspro




Joined: 23 Apr 2016
Posts: 512



PostLink    Posted: Sat Dec 23, 2017 5:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote


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Jeremy112 wrote:
redfox001 wrote:
Personally I find that black and blacklevels (and not contrast) can not be overrated. Might be true that JVC now makes absolute black by closing the iris but that is just not the same Thumbs Down This picture from the calibration section on Curt's shows how our vision is much more sensitive to low level light than it is to high level light. It is the opposite of the famous gamma correction curve of course.


"We have already perceived 50% of the difference between black and peak output when only approximately 18% of the stimulus is received."

That is why a movie in the dark is just more fun and visible Smile
http://www.curtpalme.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=22002


There's far more to video than how great the blacks or contrast is. The only major benefit of CRT these days, is that it costs less than laser based projectors. Razz


And motion clarity is generally better on crt. If you're a gamer it's great for that. Though the cruel irony is that projection tubes are more suspect to burn in from a video game than traditional three-gun tubes, so you have to be VERY careful.
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Jeremy112




Joined: 28 Sep 2006
Posts: 2645
Location: Fond du Lac, WI


PostLink    Posted: Sat Dec 23, 2017 5:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ElTopo wrote:
I talked about lamp based projectors Mr. Green


Even them, check the VW285ES or VW385ES out. Wink

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Jeremy112




Joined: 28 Sep 2006
Posts: 2645
Location: Fond du Lac, WI


PostLink    Posted: Sat Dec 23, 2017 6:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jbltecnicspro wrote:
Jeremy112 wrote:
redfox001 wrote:
Personally I find that black and blacklevels (and not contrast) can not be overrated. Might be true that JVC now makes absolute black by closing the iris but that is just not the same Thumbs Down This picture from the calibration section on Curt's shows how our vision is much more sensitive to low level light than it is to high level light. It is the opposite of the famous gamma correction curve of course.


"We have already perceived 50% of the difference between black and peak output when only approximately 18% of the stimulus is received."

That is why a movie in the dark is just more fun and visible Smile
http://www.curtpalme.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=22002


There's far more to video than how great the blacks or contrast is. The only major benefit of CRT these days, is that it costs less than laser based projectors. Razz


And motion clarity is generally better on crt. If you're a gamer it's great for that. Though the cruel irony is that projection tubes are more suspect to burn in from a video game than traditional three-gun tubes, so you have to be VERY careful.


Motion clarity is better on CRT compared to most entry level digitals, but there are some professional units and high end HT digitals that come extremely close.

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ElTopo




Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 1607



PostLink    Posted: Sat Dec 23, 2017 6:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sony wins in comparison to JVC
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jbltecnicspro




Joined: 23 Apr 2016
Posts: 512



PostLink    Posted: Sat Dec 23, 2017 6:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ElTopo wrote:
Sony wins in comparison to JVC


In terms of motion clarity? What are you talking about exactly?
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Pzyked




Joined: 02 Apr 2017
Posts: 30
Location: Sweden


PostLink    Posted: Sat Dec 23, 2017 11:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jbltecnicspro wrote:
ElTopo wrote:
Sony wins in comparison to JVC


In terms of motion clarity? What are you talking about exactly?


Talking about input lag for gaming I guess. CRTs are great there.
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redfox001




Joined: 16 Mar 2009
Posts: 2251
Location: The Netherlands


PostLink    Posted: Sun Dec 24, 2017 1:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah laser projectors. Smoke your eyes with monochrome blue.
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Jeremy112




Joined: 28 Sep 2006
Posts: 2645
Location: Fond du Lac, WI


PostLink    Posted: Sun Dec 24, 2017 4:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

redfox001 wrote:
Yeah laser projectors. Smoke your eyes with monochrome blue.


There are non-phosphor laser based projectors too, not just ones that use a phosphor wheel to change the color of the laser.

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Francisco




Joined: 05 Apr 2007
Posts: 305
Location: The Netherlands


PostLink    Posted: Sun Dec 24, 2017 11:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Motion clarity is better on CRT compared to most entry level digitals, but there are some professional units and high end HT digitals that come extremely close.


That's true but you'll need a big budget say around 3-4K for a Sony or JVC. Also calculate investing in 8-10 bulbs as lifetime of UHP bulbs are short. And even then the motion on a CRT is just very natural and smooth. I run my 919 at 1080P 72hz for 24hz films and 1080p 60hz. Colors are spot on within Rec709 and with Gamma slope adjustments you can calibrate also blue on a 909 very accurate.
I have seen all today's digitals, JVC's X5900 to 20ltd I have here, and Z1. Also the Sony's VW550's even the VW760 and VW5000.
I admit they all have features that CRT technology doesn't have. Most important one is light. they throw out a lot of light and with the right technique they have very good ansi contrast as well. Resulting in a very nice punchy picture. Also resolution and deep colors (HDR) is a advantage on a digital. I always find the picture on high-end digitals like top of the line JVC's and Sony's incl. laser very impressive. It's always the Wow factor. But sometimes after watching a long movie I get tired of the intensity of the projector. The sharpness (high resolution, sitting close by to enable experiencing 4K) high light output, saturated colors, digital improvements like movement. On my Barco I never have this, I can binge watch a serie without getting tired. CRT is still very natural movie watching, most filmlike. Consider, if you have technical skills for CRT pj, a batcave and the room to install such a beast it is still very good bang for the buck for some years to enjoy.

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gjaky




Joined: 05 Jun 2010
Posts: 2789
Location: Budapest, Hungary


PostLink    Posted: Sun Dec 24, 2017 12:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

From this response it looks to me you should not sell the Barco, even if you couldn't setup in your remodelled theatre. A split pack is still easier to setup than a conventional CRT so you may never know what the tomorrow brings...
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Francisco




Joined: 05 Apr 2007
Posts: 305
Location: The Netherlands


PostLink    Posted: Sun Dec 24, 2017 12:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hahaha Gjaky, you are probably right. I can always stash it on my attic, one part is already there Smile
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Pzyked




Joined: 02 Apr 2017
Posts: 30
Location: Sweden


PostLink    Posted: Sun Dec 24, 2017 12:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

8-10 bulbs wow I have never changed one bulb. One bulb about 2000-5000 hours. The Sony Ruby lasted for 500 hours if you wanted some light left, have owned this. But that is ages ago.
But today you have lamp warranty so lifetime no issue at all. If you don't marry your CRT and live with it for 24 hours a day.

Also the intensity is just to adjust down the light output so no issue. CRTs are softer, because of less resolution.
And can be very nice to watch, but cant compare to a 4K Sony overall. And yes prices dropped drastically on crt, and lucky if you even sell it, so 500-1000USD you get much CRT.

Motion resolution and input lag is better on crt, where do you need that watching blueray 24 frames? Minor difference.
Then if you have newer digitals.
All better digital scan 72hz or 96hz for 24hz films natural and automatic correct.
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Pzyked




Joined: 02 Apr 2017
Posts: 30
Location: Sweden


PostLink    Posted: Sun Dec 24, 2017 1:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pzyked wrote:
8-10 bulbs wow I have never changed one bulb. One bulb about 2000-5000 hours. The Sony Ruby lasted for 500 hours if you wanted some light left, have owned this. But that is ages ago.
But today you have lamp warranty so lifetime no issue at all. If you don't marry your CRT and live with it for 24 hours a day.

Also the intensity is just to adjust down the light output so no issue. CRTs are softer, because of less resolution.
And can be very nice to watch, but cant compare to a 4K Sony overall. And yes prices dropped drastically on crt, and lucky if you even sell it, so 500-1000USD you get much CRT. But Franciscos CRT has a lot of great mods and tubes, so might be different.

Motion resolution and input lag is better on crt, where do you need that watching blueray 24 frames? Minor difference.
Then if you have newer digitals.
All better digital scan 72hz or 96hz for 24hz films natural and automatic correct.
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redfox001




Joined: 16 Mar 2009
Posts: 2251
Location: The Netherlands


PostLink    Posted: Sun Dec 24, 2017 8:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jeremy112 wrote:
redfox001 wrote:
Yeah laser projectors. Smoke your eyes with monochrome blue.


There are non-phosphor laser based projectors too, not just ones that use a phosphor wheel to change the color of the laser.


Hi I am not referring to the rainbow effect but to the colour spectral distribution of blue led/laser that peaks at 440 nm in blue and is a huge peak compared to the smooth CRT blue spectral distribution.



http://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-digital-hi-end-projectors-3-000-usd-msrp/2870777-optoma-uhz65-4k-laser-4-500-msrp-25.html

"The Dark Side of Blue-violet Light"
"Recent research has confirmed the peak of blue light hazard at 435nm, with an action spectrum from 415 to 455nm."

"The Beneficial Blue-turquoise Light"
"Thus we have an apparent paradox whereby short wavelength blue-violet light at 441nm is potentially harmful, while longer wavelength blue-turquoise light at 470nm is essential for healthy living."

https://www.eyelines.com.au/blue-light-debate-professor-john-marshall/

This blue-turquoise happens to also regulate the pupil contraction. So with laser you have a huge intensity of blue violet-light without the pupil closing.

On top of this it might be interesting to some to know that this harm is done by individual blue photon's. So filtering this blue does not make the blue less harmful it just takes more time for a hit to occur. The damage is cumulative and not reversible as far as we know.

http://www.pointsdevue.com/sites/default/files/ocular_light_toxicity_and_the_requirement_for_protection.pdf?utm_source=Website&utm_medium=Round%20Table&utm_campaign=Ocular%20Toxicity

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redfox001




Joined: 16 Mar 2009
Posts: 2251
Location: The Netherlands


PostLink    Posted: Sun Dec 24, 2017 8:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Francisco wrote:
But sometimes after watching a long movie I get tired of the intensity of the projector. The sharpness (high resolution, sitting close by to enable experiencing 4K) high light output, saturated colors, digital improvements like movement. On my Barco I never have this, I can binge watch a serie without getting tired.


Also my experience.

I had a Sony qled UHD television that was almost unwatchable making me tired. Now I have the Pioneer kuro 60 inch 1080p that is a joy to watch again. I might consider storing my crt for this plasma Very Happy

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Francisco




Joined: 05 Apr 2007
Posts: 305
Location: The Netherlands


PostLink    Posted: Sun Dec 24, 2017 9:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
CRTs are softer, because of less resolution.
And can be very nice to watch, but cant compare to a 4K Sony overall.


Don't get me wrong I totally agree, you can't compare and that also not my intention. It's just what I like about CRT. What I do like about digital UHP, laser etc. is exactly what CRT doesn't have. A lot of punch, sharpness, light, however I can get tired of it as well. So it's a bit of an oxymoron. This is all my personal experience with it.
About lifetime of UHP lamps I maybe exaggerate a bit Smile but with 500-600hrs of use, they do drop quite a bit of bite in the image. Laser for example is far more stable during it's lifetime.

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Pzyked




Joined: 02 Apr 2017
Posts: 30
Location: Sweden


PostLink    Posted: Sun Dec 24, 2017 9:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Francisco wrote:
Quote:
CRTs are softer, because of less resolution.
And can be very nice to watch, but cant compare to a 4K Sony overall.


Don't get me wrong I totally agree, you can't compare and that also not my intention. It's just what I like about CRT. What I do like about digital UHP, laser etc. is exactly what CRT doesn't have. A lot of punch, sharpness, light, however I can get tired of it as well. So it's a bit of an oxymoron. This is all my personal experience with it.
About lifetime of UHP lamps I maybe exaggerate a bit Smile but with 500-600hrs of use, they do drop quite a bit of bite in the image. Laser for example is far more stable during it's lifetime.


About bulb you are some "incorrect". Dila almost no drop or change. SXRD some drop. But minor, because you have so much light, and this can be adjusted down.

Digitals will always be more correct after what I have seen both with color and gamma even after 1000 hours. Or even 2000 hours for that matter.
I know people with JVCs that have over 17000 hours runtime, and changed bulb around 2000-2500 hours and measures still perfect . I agree with you "can't compare" CRT with a Sony 4K or JVC Dila. Two different dimensions, both in picture and experience. For me I will remember my 9 inch, but also know that time have moved on, and be happy with what I have now.

The Eiseman simulator tubes have seen it,
Have seen both the latest new lugs and new Eiseman lug, and cant say I see much difference.
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gjaky




Joined: 05 Jun 2010
Posts: 2789
Location: Budapest, Hungary


PostLink    Posted: Mon Dec 25, 2017 9:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think this is also a matter of preference. I have a friend who is an avid DLP fan, he has a fine collection of top end DPI, Projection design and Barco 1 and 3 chip projectors. He checked out the VW5000 as well and he did not like it either, he complained about uneven colour response and poor MTF. But for example this guy is an MTF nut, and not interested in the on/off contrast at all
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projectors in the past : NEC 6-9PG xtra, Electrohome Marquee 6-7500, NEC XG 1351 LC ( with super modified Electrohome VNB neckboard !!!)
current: VDC Marquee 9500LC
The MOD: VNB-DB, VIM-DB
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Pzyked




Joined: 02 Apr 2017
Posts: 30
Location: Sweden


PostLink    Posted: Mon Dec 25, 2017 1:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

gjaky wrote:
I think this is also a matter of preference. I have a friend who is an avid DLP fan, he has a fine collection of top end DPI, Projection design and Barco 1 and 3 chip projectors. He checked out the VW5000 as well and he did not like it either, he complained about uneven colour response and poor MTF. But for example this guy is an MTF nut, and not interested in the on/off contrast at all


Totally agree.
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jbltecnicspro




Joined: 23 Apr 2016
Posts: 512



PostLink    Posted: Mon Dec 25, 2017 8:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

gjaky wrote:
I think this is also a matter of preference. I have a friend who is an avid DLP fan, he has a fine collection of top end DPI, Projection design and Barco 1 and 3 chip projectors. He checked out the VW5000 as well and he did not like it either, he complained about uneven colour response and poor MTF. But for example this guy is an MTF nut, and not interested in the on/off contrast at all


Wow. Never thought I'd see the day when someone would take MTF over contrast. I always assumed that those who poopoo on/off contrast haven't seen a projector with proper on/off and didn't know what they were missing out on.
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