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Auto-calibration on BG 808 with HD-144
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CIR Engineering



Joined: 25 Aug 2008
Posts: 3886
Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany


PostLink    Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 7:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote


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stridsvognen wrote:

Thanks Craig..

That might be a option when i get my HT room up running again.. I agree that the radiance is a super tool, and i have played with it a few hundred hours after i took my CRT down. But if you can get a almost perfect result without using CMS and grayscale adjustments in the Radiance i think thats to prefer.. Ill only use the Radiance for light touchup on the grayscale.(blue)

And then i have some love left for the DVDO VP50 regarding deinterlacing and pass true on 1080P. And for analog inputs.. Not sure if my Radiance XS is a bit waco, but plugging component or any other analog input the contrast and brightness is way off, and using the DVDO its spot on and i then send 480P or 576P via HDMI to be scaled in the Radiance. Not to mention Laserdisc.. Thats a ugly thing to feed a Radiance.

The only problem getting to hire you calibrating my setup, is that i have very curious fingers, so i would need to know exactly how to do what you did, or it will be lost in just a few days..

I have lots to learn.. But ill keep going until i get it. Wink

I have not yet bought the autocalibrate software, and i think there is a lot to know before starting up calibrating with autocalibrate.. All marketing makes it sound like plug and play.. Is that really how it is.?

Craig let me know if you ever pass true Denmark

Doh, I was just in Berlin five months ago! I may be back this Summer and I'd be happy to go north.

As far as "very curious fingers" are concerned I have an easy solution for that. First line of defense would be the ISF backup in the Radiance. As long as you don't override the ISF backup, all you need do is restore it from the remote and you have my settings back. The second line of defense is that I will back up the Radiance config to the PC when I am done. That way, you and I always have a backed up, configured, and calibrated file with all your settings. Just write it back to the Lumagen and you are all set.

As for your analog inputs, I think they may be miscalibrated by the analog to digital encoder in the VP. I have never done this, but it is adjustable in the Lumagen. Select the analog input that you want to use. Input a test pattern that shows high level white bars, ramps, or whatever as long as it has graduations. It would be best to use a test pattern that shows whiter-than-white. On the Lumagen remote go "menu > input > analog setup > a2d gain > normal. Press the down direction to go from normal to "reduce." You can reduce from 1-31 and each reduction will lower the white level when it is encoded from analog to digital. Ideally what will happen is that you can adjust with a test pattern such that you can see all the graduations with a whiter than white test pattern. ie you want to be able to see the steps between 250-255. Save and exit.

craigr

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Corleone88



Joined: 09 Dec 2006
Posts: 397
Location: France


PostLink    Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 9:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am bit surprised by the result now after swapping the green and blue lenses (damn stickers !).
Directly from the OPPO 103 without any video processors, here are the results for colors:



So my question is, do I really need my Radiance to get only the red with a better result than 7 for deltaE? Almost all others are under 3 Very Happy.
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stridsvognen
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PostLink    Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 9:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think you nee to try it out. Run the autocalibrate, and lets your eyes decide.. your the one that have to look at it.. Not me or anyone else here.

Nice you got the colors back on track.. Thumbs Up

You can always sende me your HDQ when you get tired of it..
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CIR Engineering



Joined: 25 Aug 2008
Posts: 3886
Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany


PostLink    Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 12:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Corleone88 wrote:
I am bit surprised by the result now after swapping the green and blue lenses (damn stickers !).
Directly from the OPPO 103 without any video processors, here are the results for colors:



So my question is, do I really need my Radiance to get only the red with a better result than 7 for deltaE? Almost all others are under 3 Very Happy.

That's more like it Smile

Fixing the red primary will go a long way. Unfortunately I think your meter is not reading green very well. With the color corrected lenses green should be way outside the gamut, not as close as what you are seeing. Green seems to be the hardest color for meters to measure. What you may want to try is manually calibrate green and slightly under saturated it.

Once that's done you can start to work with grayscale and gamma some. There are a few tricks with the Radiance that I may share once you are comfortable working with what you have now. You can use the Radiance for this, I just wouldn't try and learn everything all at once. You could try a 10-point auto grayscale and see how it look on real test patterns when you are finished, but manual is usually better with CRT.

craigr

_________________
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Corleone88



Joined: 09 Dec 2006
Posts: 397
Location: France


PostLink    Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 9:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CIR Engineering wrote:
What you may want to try is manually calibrate green and slightly under saturated it.


Well I don't trust my eyes enough to calibrate a green color Wink. Maybe with a reference such as green color on paper could help me on that? But where can get that? I remember having 3 transparent papers sold with a calibration DVD used to compare with the displayed colors on screen.
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CIR Engineering



Joined: 25 Aug 2008
Posts: 3886
Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany


PostLink    Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 2:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just mean that you maybe should calibrate green so that it is just inside the gamut instead of just outside.

craigr

_________________
JETI Specbos 1211 Spectroradiometer
Photo Research PR-650 Spectroradiometer
Klein K10-A Laboratory Grade Colorimeter
Murideo Fresco SIX-G HDMI 2.x Multimedia Generator
Murideo Fresco SIX-A HDMI 2.x Analyzer
*NEW Light Illusion LightSpace XPT Pro Version 10.x Color Calibration Software
ChromaPure3 Pro Color Calibration Software
Sencore CR7000 CRT Tube Analyzer / Rejuvenater
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www.CIR-Engineering.com - craigr@cir-engineering.com
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CIR Engineering



Joined: 25 Aug 2008
Posts: 3886
Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany


PostLink    Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 2:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You know, I just looked back at my notes, and your green could be correctly measured. I have a discrepancy because I have two different charts for color filtered lenses on 8" machines. Maybe there are two different degrees of color filtration depending on lens models? How many different types of color corrected 8" lenses are out there?

craigr

_________________
JETI Specbos 1211 Spectroradiometer
Photo Research PR-650 Spectroradiometer
Klein K10-A Laboratory Grade Colorimeter
Murideo Fresco SIX-G HDMI 2.x Multimedia Generator
Murideo Fresco SIX-A HDMI 2.x Analyzer
*NEW Light Illusion LightSpace XPT Pro Version 10.x Color Calibration Software
ChromaPure3 Pro Color Calibration Software
Sencore CR7000 CRT Tube Analyzer / Rejuvenater
Audyssey MultEQ Pro Audio Calibration System
Authorized Dealer for Lumagen & just about everything else Wink
www.CIR-Engineering.com - craigr@cir-engineering.com
Phone: 865-405-6892
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Corleone88



Joined: 09 Dec 2006
Posts: 397
Location: France


PostLink    Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 3:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think that HD-144 (like HD-145) are for 7'' projector (I have an adapter from Joust). The only 8'' pj with colored lenses that i know is the Barco Cine 8.
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CIR Engineering



Joined: 25 Aug 2008
Posts: 3886
Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany


PostLink    Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 3:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Man, I can't remember. I only have about six clients left with 8" CRT projectors that are air coupled. And of those we have had all but one in service for more than 10 years. Of those clients I think they all have HD-144/145 lenses but they are on NEC or Runco 8" machines. I don't think there is any adapter present on any of them... but whatever.

craigr

_________________
JETI Specbos 1211 Spectroradiometer
Photo Research PR-650 Spectroradiometer
Klein K10-A Laboratory Grade Colorimeter
Murideo Fresco SIX-G HDMI 2.x Multimedia Generator
Murideo Fresco SIX-A HDMI 2.x Analyzer
*NEW Light Illusion LightSpace XPT Pro Version 10.x Color Calibration Software
ChromaPure3 Pro Color Calibration Software
Sencore CR7000 CRT Tube Analyzer / Rejuvenater
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www.CIR-Engineering.com - craigr@cir-engineering.com
Phone: 865-405-6892
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Corleone88



Joined: 09 Dec 2006
Posts: 397
Location: France


PostLink    Posted: Sun Feb 24, 2013 9:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CIR Engineering wrote:

Once that's done you can start to work with grayscale and gamma some. There are a few tricks with the Radiance that I may share once you are comfortable working with what you have now. You can use the Radiance for this, I just wouldn't try and learn everything all at once. You could try a 10-point auto grayscale and see how it look on real test patterns when you are finished, but manual is usually better with CRT.

craigr


Craig,

I did undersaturate a bit the green manually after an auto-calibration. This looks good to me Very Happy.
3 remaining problems :

1. I have a Y = 9 ftL with 100% window (contrast = 68). If I follow the rule (0.65% of Y from 100 IRE): 10 IRE should have 9*0.0065 = 0.0585 ftL which is very very low, is it correct?
2. I am not sure about the 10-20 or 30 IRE greyscale. Is it there too much blue or red? I don't know. It looks rather good but not very accurate I think.
3. My major issue is crushing blacks: I need gamma boost on the lower end. If I want to raise the luma on the second point (21-points greyscale), it would lower the gamma value of the 5 IRE. What about the 1-2-3 and 4 IRE? There is also the gamma factor that I can lower, but I think that it can unfortunately also change the luma value of the 0 IRE which of course I don't want to. I thought maybe changing the gamma factor in order to get no crushing blacks and then lower the luma of the first point (21-point greyscale) in order to get my black back.
In a nutshell, what are the steps to get gamma boost at the lower end with the Radiance ?
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CIR Engineering



Joined: 25 Aug 2008
Posts: 3886
Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany


PostLink    Posted: Sun Feb 24, 2013 5:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Corleone88 wrote:

Craig,

I did undersaturate a bit the green manually after an auto-calibration. This looks good to me Very Happy.
3 remaining problems :

1. I have a Y = 9 ftL with 100% window (contrast = 68). If I follow the rule (0.65% of Y from 100 IRE): 10 IRE should have 9*0.0065 = 0.0585 ftL which is very very low, is it correct?
2. I am not sure about the 10-20 or 30 IRE greyscale. Is it there too much blue or red? I don't know. It looks rather good but not very accurate I think.
3. My major issue is crushing blacks: I need gamma boost on the lower end. If I want to raise the luma on the second point (21-points greyscale), it would lower the gamma value of the 5 IRE. What about the 1-2-3 and 4 IRE? There is also the gamma factor that I can lower, but I think that it can unfortunately also change the luma value of the 0 IRE which of course I don't want to. I thought maybe changing the gamma factor in order to get no crushing blacks and then lower the luma of the first point (21-point greyscale) in order to get my black back.
In a nutshell, what are the steps to get gamma boost at the lower end with the Radiance ?

I am trying to think of the best way for you to proceed, but you are limited at low stimulus levels by your colorimeter. I think with a white point at 9 flt you should probably be able to get a good reading at 30IRE. You may want to take several repeated measurements of 30IRE to test if the meter gives you the same values repeatedly.

I think your best bet may be to use the 2 point grayscale in the Lumagen. Leave 0IRE and 100IRE alone. Just increase luminance at the 30IRE point in the two point grayscale to lower your gamma a little bit. What is your gamma value now, do you have a chart to post?

After you move the 2 point 30IRE see what the picture looks like on real video content. You may want to switch to 11 or 12 point grayscale after you get the 2 point squared away. When you switch to a higher number of points in the lumagen it will automatically interpolate into the new expanded parametric grayscale. So your work at the 2 point will be interpolated and applied.

What you could do after you switch to 12 point is one of a few options. You could increase the luma values at 10 and 20 IRE to lower the gamma further at 10 and 20 IRE. You would have to do this by eye because your meter would not be accurate. You could also consider putting points 40-100 back to default luma levels.

Gamma is tricky especially when you don't have a meter to do the low end. You'll have to spend some serious time getting it right and you will have to do some of the work by eye.

To your question on the 21 point gamma. If you raise 5IRE and leave 0IRE untouched than a logarithmic path will be plotted by the Lumagen linking points 0 and 5. So 5IRE will have the lowest gamma and 1IRE the highest, but all points between 0 and 5IRE will have lower gamma than if you had left 5IRE alone. In other words, the nearly infinite number of brightness levels between 1 and 5 IRE will be increased logarithmically to interpolate between 0 IRE and 5 IRE.

With your tools I would suggest using just the 12 point gamma adjustments in the Lumagen. I don't think 20 point gamma will provide you with any further advantage and just give you more work and more places to cause errors. 20 point is just going to add complexity to an area that is fine with 12 point.

craigr

_________________
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Photo Research PR-650 Spectroradiometer
Klein K10-A Laboratory Grade Colorimeter
Murideo Fresco SIX-G HDMI 2.x Multimedia Generator
Murideo Fresco SIX-A HDMI 2.x Analyzer
*NEW Light Illusion LightSpace XPT Pro Version 10.x Color Calibration Software
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Corleone88



Joined: 09 Dec 2006
Posts: 397
Location: France


PostLink    Posted: Sun Feb 24, 2013 6:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks again Craig. I will try this evening.
You didn't answer my question about what should be the value in ftL at 30 IRE when the 100% window gives 9 ft/L?
If I follow the rule of 0.65% (ok with CRT pj ?), I should get a very low value of 0.0585 ftL when adjusting the luminsosity.
What do you think is best?.
Behind that question, is this one: how can set my luminosity value, when I have crushing blacks?
I used to display flashing black bars to set it, but with crushing blacks I have very high value and washed out blacks.



On the Lumagen there is the gamma factor. Should I use it?
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CIR Engineering



Joined: 25 Aug 2008
Posts: 3886
Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany


PostLink    Posted: Sun Feb 24, 2013 8:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Corleone88 wrote:
Thanks again Craig. I will try this evening.
You didn't answer my question about what should be the value in ftL at 30 IRE when the 100% window gives 9 ft/L?
If I follow the rule of 0.65% (ok with CRT pj ?), I should get a very low value of 0.0585 ftL when adjusting the luminsosity.
What do you think is best?.
Behind that question, is this one: how can set my luminosity value, when I have crushing blacks?
I used to display flashing black bars to set it, but with crushing blacks I have very high value and washed out blacks.

On the Lumagen there is the gamma factor. Should I use it?

I guess a coefficient of 0.65 will produce a gamma for you at 30 IRE of around 2.3. That's a good starting point and may prove to be ideal.

Use the 12 point gamma in the Lumagen. You will have one point at 0 IRE, one at 0.5 IRE, and then one point at 10, 20, 30, 40, 50, 60, 70, 80, 90, 100. Leave your 0 IRE point at zero, but increase the luma of 0.5 IRE until you can see 1 IRE on a test pattern.

Use the Radiance contrast pattern that is the second pattern when you press number 4 (inside adjustable test patterns menu). That pattern has a black column in the middle and then -1, -2, -3, and -4 IRE to the left. On the right of the black column are columns of 1, 2, 3, 4 IRE. You want to at least be able to see the 3 IRE bar, but you may be able to hit a point where you can see the 2 or even 1 IRE bars.

craigr

_________________
JETI Specbos 1211 Spectroradiometer
Photo Research PR-650 Spectroradiometer
Klein K10-A Laboratory Grade Colorimeter
Murideo Fresco SIX-G HDMI 2.x Multimedia Generator
Murideo Fresco SIX-A HDMI 2.x Analyzer
*NEW Light Illusion LightSpace XPT Pro Version 10.x Color Calibration Software
ChromaPure3 Pro Color Calibration Software
Sencore CR7000 CRT Tube Analyzer / Rejuvenater
Audyssey MultEQ Pro Audio Calibration System
Authorized Dealer for Lumagen & just about everything else Wink
www.CIR-Engineering.com - craigr@cir-engineering.com
Phone: 865-405-6892
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Corleone88



Joined: 09 Dec 2006
Posts: 397
Location: France


PostLink    Posted: Sun Feb 24, 2013 8:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Are you sure it is 12 point, because mine has 11-point, so I am not sure that there is a 0.5IRE.?
The 21-point has a 5 IRE though
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Nashou66



Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16170
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PostLink    Posted: Sun Feb 24, 2013 8:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Corleone88 wrote:
Are you sure it is 12 point, because mine has 11-point, so I am not sure that there is a 0.5IRE.?
The 21-point has a 5 IRE though


With the Lumagens you can alter any point to a new point. So if you dont want 5 IRE you can make it 2 or 3 etc. and 5 gets left alone.

So many eliminate 0 IRE and add .5 as Craig suggested or another number.

Right Craig?

Athanasios

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Corleone88



Joined: 09 Dec 2006
Posts: 397
Location: France


PostLink    Posted: Sun Apr 07, 2013 9:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was trying to re-calibrate my pj and when I started to get the luminance, I found Y=2.34 instead of 29.4 (the value I had 2 months ago) on a 100% window pattern.
Is my Display 3 Pro faulty?
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TomHuffman



Joined: 01 Jun 2010
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Location: Springfield, MO


PostLink    Posted: Sun Apr 07, 2013 10:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Corleone88 wrote:
I was trying to re-calibrate my pj and when I started to get the luminance, I found Y=2.34 instead of 29.4 (the value I had 2 months ago) on a 100% window pattern.
Is my Display 3 Pro faulty?
There are many possible explanations for this. Among them is a faulty sensor, but this is probably the least likely among them.
- Were you using cd/m2 as the luminance mode both times? (ft-L would yield a very different value).
- Was the probe aimed properly? Please use full field test patterns for projectors, not windows.
- Was the diffuser left in place?

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Corleone88



Joined: 09 Dec 2006
Posts: 397
Location: France


PostLink    Posted: Mon Apr 08, 2013 7:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TomHuffman wrote:
Corleone88 wrote:
I was trying to re-calibrate my pj and when I started to get the luminance, I found Y=2.34 instead of 29.4 (the value I had 2 months ago) on a 100% window pattern.
Is my Display 3 Pro faulty?
There are many possible explanations for this. Among them is a faulty sensor, but this is probably the least likely among them.
- Were you using cd/m2 as the luminance mode both times? (ft-L would yield a very different value).
- Was the probe aimed properly? Please use full field test patterns for projectors, not windows.
- Was the diffuser left in place?


I will check these this evening. But I am surprised that you advise to choose full field instead of window, as I heard/read the opposite for CRT pj (outputting not enough light if I remember correctly to use fields). I also have another Display 3 Pro at work. I will bring it at home and also compare with it.
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TomHuffman



Joined: 01 Jun 2010
Posts: 73
Location: Springfield, MO


PostLink    Posted: Mon Apr 08, 2013 8:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Corleone88 wrote:
I will check these this evening. But I am surprised that you advise to choose full field instead of window, as I heard/read the opposite for CRT pj (outputting not enough light if I remember correctly to use fields). I also have another Display 3 Pro at work. I will bring it at home and also compare with it.
Sorry, I forgot that you were using a CRT projector. In that case, windows are the appropriate pattern. Just be sure that your aim point is good.
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Corleone88



Joined: 09 Dec 2006
Posts: 397
Location: France


PostLink    Posted: Mon Apr 08, 2013 9:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

By the way, I always select "projector front" instead of "CRT" in the Chromapure option when I initialize my meter.
Is it correct?
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