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Auto-calibration on BG 808 with HD-144
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TomHuffman



Joined: 01 Jun 2010
Posts: 71
Location: Springfield, MO


PostLink    Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 5:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote


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stridsvognen wrote:
TomHuffman wrote:
Corleone88 wrote:
TomHuffman wrote:
All of the colors, except red and yellow, are undersaturated. You cannot correct undersaturated colors with a CMS. First, select a preset in which the colors are oversaturated and then let the CMS bring them in.


Ok , but how do you select a preset (I don't understand what you mean, sorry Embarassed ) ?
A Picture preset--Dynamic, Standard, Movie, etc. Operating modes with different picture characteristics.


Tom.. Its a BARCO CRT projector.. Smile
I have never worked on one of these. They have no picture presets? Every display I have ever seen--including CRTs--has presets. So, if this display has no way to select different operating modes, then the undersaturated colors are uncorrectable.
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CIR Engineering



Joined: 25 Aug 2008
Posts: 3870
Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany


PostLink    Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 7:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Corleone88 wrote:
Thanks a lot Craig, I will try your tips. Here is my geyscale without any correction from the Radiance :

Is it good enough?

And this is my gamma (corrected with the XD) :

For Blu-ray movie in a complete dark room, the best gamma value is 2.4 or not ?

Last thing : what about the white adjustement (contrast value)? I read somewhere that for a CRT projector you should display a window pattern 100% white and measures between 10 and 12FT/l. Is it the correct method?

Most likely, yes, these are ok. What does 10-30 IRE look like by eye? Do they look gray or do they seem to have color in them (magenta, cyan...)? You most likely should be able to get 30IRE to measure correctly with the projector controls though.

What probe are you using? Only the top grade pro probes can do 10 and 20 IRE correctly on an 8" CRT... even 30IRE measurements will be questionable with most probes or spectroradiometers.

You may want to lower your gamma some with the Radiance gamma factor and see what you think.

Gamma value is a little subjective so blindly following 2.4 could be a bad idea. The trouble with an 8" CRT is that it doesn't have a ton of light output so the white point will be lower. This means that a higher gamma value will in turn make low IRE emissions even darker as well, so darker images will look darker. You may be losing a lot of dark area detail.

Usually on an 8" CRT projector I find that I like a gamma around 2.25, but anything between 2.2 and 2.6 could be technically ok.

craigr

_________________
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CIR Engineering



Joined: 25 Aug 2008
Posts: 3870
Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany


PostLink    Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 7:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TomHuffman wrote:
stridsvognen wrote:
TomHuffman wrote:
Corleone88 wrote:
TomHuffman wrote:
All of the colors, except red and yellow, are undersaturated. You cannot correct undersaturated colors with a CMS. First, select a preset in which the colors are oversaturated and then let the CMS bring them in.


Ok , but how do you select a preset (I don't understand what you mean, sorry Embarassed ) ?
A Picture preset--Dynamic, Standard, Movie, etc. Operating modes with different picture characteristics.


Tom.. Its a BARCO CRT projector.. Smile
I have never worked on one of these. They have no picture presets? Every display I have ever seen--including CRTs--has presets. So, if this display has no way to select different operating modes, then the undersaturated colors are uncorrectable.

Hey Tom,

On a front projection CRT there are no presets. The projector just uses the natural emissions of the phosphor to create the light output. The nice thing about a CRT is that there is no strange black box as in digital where putting a signal in may result in something different on the way out. A front projection CRT is more like an audio speaker, what you put in you get out. The only controls will be for grayscale, black level, white level, and gamma on a few projectors (G90).

With the hardware he has, he should be able to get a good Rec709 gamut because he's using color corrected lenses. He should also be able to get good grayscale with the projector controls. And the gamma should be reasonable without any correction because of the natural response of the phosphors. After all, CRT is the technology that gamma was designed around to begin with (the invers slope in the video signal was designed to be opposite of the natural gamma curve of a CRT).

You are correct on consumer grade rear projection CRT and direct view. With those, there are always presets and gamma adjustments. But this is an RGB projector with mostly direct signal pass through.

craigr

_________________
JETI Specbos 1211 Spectroradiometer
Photo Research PR-650 Spectroradiometer
Klein K10-A Laboratory Grade Colorimeter
Murideo Fresco SIX-G HDMI 2.x Multimedia Generator
Murideo Fresco SIX-A HDMI 2.x Analyzer
*NEW Light Illusion LightSpace XPT Pro Version 10.x Color Calibration Software
ChromaPure3 Pro Color Calibration Software
Sencore CR7000 CRT Tube Analyzer / Rejuvenater
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Corleone88



Joined: 09 Dec 2006
Posts: 396
Location: France


PostLink    Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 7:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have a Eye One Display 3.
At 10, 20 and 30, they look grey to me without any color in them. Maybe difficult to say on the 10 IRE.
What about the contrast value. I have 9 ft/L with contrast set to 52 (0..100) on a window pattern. I found the white level adjustement very difficult to do if you have to check with levels of white bars.
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CIR Engineering



Joined: 25 Aug 2008
Posts: 3870
Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany


PostLink    Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 8:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Corleone88 wrote:
I have a Eye One Display 3.
At 10, 20 and 30, they look grey to me without any color in them. Maybe difficult to say on the 10 IRE.
What about the contrast value. I have 9 ft/L with contrast set to 52 (0..100) on a window pattern. I found the white level adjustement very difficult to do if you have to check with levels of white bars.

Tom may be able to say better than I can, but I suspect that your meter may have trouble at 30IRE on your 8" machine. How many flt are you getting on a 30IRE window? I would try and get gray as close as you can with the meter at 30IRE and see what you think. It may be borderline there, but I bet it will be close enough. Also, use 80IRE for your high gray adjustment (in case you are not already).

You don't set contrast the same way on a CRT as on a digital so the pattern you are using will not work. Really on a front projection CRT you can turn up contrast until your image starts to bloom (loses focus). Look at a focus test pattern with green only and see how high you can raise the contrast before focus starts to go out. Look for the slightest change. At that point you have your maximum white level. After that, you should back contrast down because if you keep it that high you will burn through your tubes in no time. The lower you set contrast the longer the tubes will last, but the higher you set contrast the more light your image will have. Trade off between longevity of tubes and punch of the image.

craigr

_________________
JETI Specbos 1211 Spectroradiometer
Photo Research PR-650 Spectroradiometer
Klein K10-A Laboratory Grade Colorimeter
Murideo Fresco SIX-G HDMI 2.x Multimedia Generator
Murideo Fresco SIX-A HDMI 2.x Analyzer
*NEW Light Illusion LightSpace XPT Pro Version 10.x Color Calibration Software
ChromaPure3 Pro Color Calibration Software
Sencore CR7000 CRT Tube Analyzer / Rejuvenater
Audyssey MultEQ Pro Audio Calibration System
Authorized Dealer for Lumagen & just about everything else Wink
www.CIR-Engineering.com - craigr@cir-engineering.com
Phone: 865-405-6892
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Corleone88



Joined: 09 Dec 2006
Posts: 396
Location: France


PostLink    Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 11:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Craig,

After what you said about the way to calibrate my BG808 + HD-144, I am wondering if I still need my Radiance.
Is my Lumagen HDQ not enough to do manual calibration the way you described?

On my HDQ:
- Greyscale: I don't use the 11- point geyscale for the the RGB curve but only my Red/Blue cut off and gain values (BG 808) on 20% and 80% window patterns.
- gamma : I use the 2-point greyscale option, and set only the luminance value to get a 2.2 or 2.35 gamma value. I didn't see a global gamma factor on the HDQ.
- color gamut: I use the CMS for primaries and try to get the secondaries as close to the reference as possible. It probably would not be as good as with a Radiance, but I can maybe get a deltaE between 4 and 5.

What do you think?
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stridsvognen
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PostLink    Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 11:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My Marquee 9500LC looked better before i got my Lumagen. I bought the lumagen for the 72hz option, and played around with the grayscale, and noticed some improvement, but guess there is no such thing as a free lunch.. So you will give some to get some.

In the end its all up to what you prefer.

For sure you need the projector calibrated as good as possible before you start correcting anything with the VP

Try calibrate your Barco just using the Barco controls.

Play with focus on the blue tube, and do the best grayscale you can adjusting G2 and Drive in the projector.

I Think the Lumagen makes wonders with digital displays, but i also think you have to be careful messing to much with the data when feeding a CRT projector..

( I have never calibrated any Barco CRT, so its possible i'm way off.)
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Corleone88



Joined: 09 Dec 2006
Posts: 396
Location: France


PostLink    Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 12:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stridsvognen wrote:
My Marquee 9500LC looked better before i got my Lumagen. I bought the lumagen for the 72hz option, and played around with the grayscale, and noticed some improvement, but guess there is no such thing as a free lunch.. So you will give some to get some.

In the end its all up to what you prefer.

For sure you need the projector calibrated as good as possible before you start correcting anything with the VP

Try calibrate your Barco just using the Barco controls.

Play with focus on the blue tube, and do the best grayscale you can adjusting G2 and Drive in the projector.

I Think the Lumagen makes wonders with digital displays, but i also think you have to be careful messing to much with the data when feeding a CRT projector..

( I have never calibrated any Barco CRT, so its possible i'm way off.)


What do you mean by "playing with the focus on the blue tube"? Do you suggest it is better to be out-focused on the blue tube?
At first, I bought the HDQ to get 1080i@96 and nice greyscale and then, the Radiance to get perfect colors (primaries and secondaries)

"In the end its all up to what you prefer. ". True, but my eyes don't know what the director wanted to show on the screen Wink.
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Nashou66



Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16167
Location: West Seneca NY


PostLink    Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 1:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Really Guys? The Lumagen doesnt improve the Marquee or any CRT? I have serious doubts about that. its night and day for me. I can get perfect greyscale with the Lumagen. With the HDQ and the radiance. and a nicer Picture than just the Oppo directly in to the Moome card.

And this was before I set up the Blend on a single PJ.

I had an Marquee 8000 that I had Professionally calibrated. it looked really good. I then screwed up the settings and by that time I learned how to calibrate a little on my own. So I did the greyscale in the PJ first and got it close to what the pro had. but not quite there.

They did not use the CMS in my HDQ at the time. SO I decided to give it a shot and WOW I really got the 3D depth I knew CRT could give.
It is not an instant achievement either. you have to go back and forth with many aspects of the image and have certain trade offs.

Just keep at it and you'll get there. If you can get as close to a nice greyscale in the PJ as you can you should. Too much use of any VP can cause posterization of the colors but you'll know when it happens and then just reset go back to the Greyscale in the PJ only and start over. I don't see how I could live with out the CMS of my Radiance for CRT. I would switch to Digital if I didn't have it.

Corleeone, if you have a blue Hump after calibrating 30 and 80 IRE in your PJ with out use of the lumagen then you should defocus the Blue a few clicks and re calibrate 30 and 80. check the grey scale and see if it flattens out. Keep at it and some times you need to adjust contrast too. just a few clicks either up or down. It is time consuming but the flatter you get it in the PJ the better results you'll end up using the lumagen.


athanasios

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Corleone88



Joined: 09 Dec 2006
Posts: 396
Location: France


PostLink    Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 1:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would have guess that defocusing blue, will give "more blue" to the picture. But according to you, this is the opposite. Am I right?
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Nashou66



Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16167
Location: West Seneca NY


PostLink    Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 1:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It will give more output but usually in the 70-100 range , this flattens out the curve for blue. You'll see this mentioned in the calibration for dummies sticky.

Try with a sharp blue and then defocus a few clicks and observe the changes. You'll see what it does easier that way. Some times to get a better white(100%) you have to really defocus. it depends on what your after. Some will sacrifice perfect white for a sharper blue but blue is hard to see anyhow focused. it is really not noticeable.

Athanasios

_________________
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CIR Engineering



Joined: 25 Aug 2008
Posts: 3870
Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany


PostLink    Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 2:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Corleone88 wrote:
Craig,

After what you said about the way to calibrate my BG808 + HD-144, I am wondering if I still need my Radiance.
Is my Lumagen HDQ not enough to do manual calibration the way you described?

On my HDQ:
- Greyscale: I don't use the 11- point geyscale for the the RGB curve but only my Red/Blue cut off and gain values (BG 808) on 20% and 80% window patterns.
- gamma : I use the 2-point greyscale option, and set only the luminance value to get a 2.2 or 2.35 gamma value. I didn't see a global gamma factor on the HDQ.
- color gamut: I use the CMS for primaries and try to get the secondaries as close to the reference as possible. It probably would not be as good as with a Radiance, but I can maybe get a deltaE between 4 and 5.

What do you think?

Yes, you need the Radiance. There is absolutely no comparison.

You should never use the CMS on the Vision with a CRT. That CMS is highly inaccurate and was only added on for the purpose of taming (not calibrating) the outrageous green and red primaries on early digital projectors. The CMS on the Vision will destroy your secondary colors and ruin your CRT image.

Not to mention that the Radiance does EVERYTHING else a whole lot better than the Vision ever could. The scaling is much better, the grayscale is logarithmic instead of linear, full HDMI support… and 1,000 other things are all better on the Radiance.


craigr

_________________
JETI Specbos 1211 Spectroradiometer
Photo Research PR-650 Spectroradiometer
Klein K10-A Laboratory Grade Colorimeter
Murideo Fresco SIX-G HDMI 2.x Multimedia Generator
Murideo Fresco SIX-A HDMI 2.x Analyzer
*NEW Light Illusion LightSpace XPT Pro Version 10.x Color Calibration Software
ChromaPure3 Pro Color Calibration Software
Sencore CR7000 CRT Tube Analyzer / Rejuvenater
Audyssey MultEQ Pro Audio Calibration System
Authorized Dealer for Lumagen & just about everything else Wink
www.CIR-Engineering.com - craigr@cir-engineering.com
Phone: 865-405-6892
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CIR Engineering



Joined: 25 Aug 2008
Posts: 3870
Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany


PostLink    Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 2:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stridsvognen wrote:
My Marquee 9500LC looked better before i got my Lumagen. I bought the lumagen for the 72hz option, and played around with the grayscale, and noticed some improvement, but guess there is no such thing as a free lunch.. So you will give some to get some.

In the end its all up to what you prefer.

For sure you need the projector calibrated as good as possible before you start correcting anything with the VP

Try calibrate your Barco just using the Barco controls.

Play with focus on the blue tube, and do the best grayscale you can adjusting G2 and Drive in the projector.

I Think the Lumagen makes wonders with digital displays, but i also think you have to be careful messing to much with the data when feeding a CRT projector..

( I have never calibrated any Barco CRT, so its possible i'm way off.)

I am not trying to be rude, but you clearly don't know what you are doing with a Radiance. Honestly, the Radiance was never supposed to be sold directly to end users because it is supposed to be setup by a professional who understands how to work with the processor. These are very complicated units and have an enormous plethora of calibration options that a normal human will not understand. Your findings, that the projector looked better without the Radiance highlights why Lumagen really doesn't want the processors to go directly to end users. Folks don’t know how to use the processor and then they may be unsatisfied with the outcome.

If you’re interested in every hiring me to do your setup your jaw will drop when I get done with it and you will appreciate the Radiance Wink

craigr

_________________
JETI Specbos 1211 Spectroradiometer
Photo Research PR-650 Spectroradiometer
Klein K10-A Laboratory Grade Colorimeter
Murideo Fresco SIX-G HDMI 2.x Multimedia Generator
Murideo Fresco SIX-A HDMI 2.x Analyzer
*NEW Light Illusion LightSpace XPT Pro Version 10.x Color Calibration Software
ChromaPure3 Pro Color Calibration Software
Sencore CR7000 CRT Tube Analyzer / Rejuvenater
Audyssey MultEQ Pro Audio Calibration System
Authorized Dealer for Lumagen & just about everything else Wink
www.CIR-Engineering.com - craigr@cir-engineering.com
Phone: 865-405-6892
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CIR Engineering



Joined: 25 Aug 2008
Posts: 3870
Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany


PostLink    Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 2:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nashou66 wrote:
It will give more output but usually in the 70-100 range , this flattens out the curve for blue. You'll see this mentioned in the calibration for dummies sticky.

Try with a sharp blue and then defocus a few clicks and observe the changes. You'll see what it does easier that way. Some times to get a better white(100%) you have to really defocus. it depends on what your after. Some will sacrifice perfect white for a sharper blue but blue is hard to see anyhow focused. it is really not noticeable.

Athanasios

To determine how much blue defocus to use follow these steps:

1) Focus blue to the best it can be. Make sure that any blue defocus option is disabled (turned off) in the projector.
2) Put up a 100 IRE window.
3) Mute red and green so that the window is just blue only.
4) Measure and record how bright blue is (flt).
5) Multiply the luminance reading of blue by 1.2 to determine how bright blue needs to get 20% more light output.
6) Defocus and measure blue until it reads your calculated value.

Example.
Measured blue 100 IRE window is 1.0 flt.

1.0 x 1.2 = 1.2 flt

Adjust blue focus until you get 1.2 flt on your probe.

Example 2.
Measures a 100 IRE window reads 2.14 flt.

2.14 x 1.2 = 2.57 flt

Adjust blue focus until you get 2.57 flt.

That will give you a very close starting point. You may find that you can further defocus blue without deleteriously impacting the image. You may also find that this is too much defocus and you need to tighten it up just a little... but that should be close.

craigr

_________________
JETI Specbos 1211 Spectroradiometer
Photo Research PR-650 Spectroradiometer
Klein K10-A Laboratory Grade Colorimeter
Murideo Fresco SIX-G HDMI 2.x Multimedia Generator
Murideo Fresco SIX-A HDMI 2.x Analyzer
*NEW Light Illusion LightSpace XPT Pro Version 10.x Color Calibration Software
ChromaPure3 Pro Color Calibration Software
Sencore CR7000 CRT Tube Analyzer / Rejuvenater
Audyssey MultEQ Pro Audio Calibration System
Authorized Dealer for Lumagen & just about everything else Wink
www.CIR-Engineering.com - craigr@cir-engineering.com
Phone: 865-405-6892
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CIR Engineering



Joined: 25 Aug 2008
Posts: 3870
Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany


PostLink    Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 2:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Corleone88 wrote:
Craig,

After what you said about the way to calibrate my BG808 + HD-144, I am wondering if I still need my Radiance.
Is my Lumagen HDQ not enough to do manual calibration the way you described?

On my HDQ:
- Greyscale: I don't use the 11- point geyscale for the the RGB curve but only my Red/Blue cut off and gain values (BG 808) on 20% and 80% window patterns.
- gamma : I use the 2-point greyscale option, and set only the luminance value to get a 2.2 or 2.35 gamma value. I didn't see a global gamma factor on the HDQ.
- color gamut: I use the CMS for primaries and try to get the secondaries as close to the reference as possible. It probably would not be as good as with a Radiance, but I can maybe get a deltaE between 4 and 5.

What do you think?

Also, read my earlier posts. You are not using the correct test pattern for low level grayscale, especially with your meter. Your meter cannot read that low.

craigr

_________________
JETI Specbos 1211 Spectroradiometer
Photo Research PR-650 Spectroradiometer
Klein K10-A Laboratory Grade Colorimeter
Murideo Fresco SIX-G HDMI 2.x Multimedia Generator
Murideo Fresco SIX-A HDMI 2.x Analyzer
*NEW Light Illusion LightSpace XPT Pro Version 10.x Color Calibration Software
ChromaPure3 Pro Color Calibration Software
Sencore CR7000 CRT Tube Analyzer / Rejuvenater
Audyssey MultEQ Pro Audio Calibration System
Authorized Dealer for Lumagen & just about everything else Wink
www.CIR-Engineering.com - craigr@cir-engineering.com
Phone: 865-405-6892
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Nashou66



Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16167
Location: West Seneca NY


PostLink    Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 2:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for that method Craig.

Nice little Nugget!

And Kurt, if you do hire Craig you'll really see your Marquee shine.

Nashou

_________________
Don't blame your underwear for your crooked ass~ unknown Greek philosopher


"Republicans believe every day is the Fourth of July, but the Democrats believe every day is April 15." --- President Reagan

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Corleone88



Joined: 09 Dec 2006
Posts: 396
Location: France


PostLink    Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 2:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CIR Engineering wrote:
Corleone88 wrote:
Craig,

After what you said about the way to calibrate my BG808 + HD-144, I am wondering if I still need my Radiance.
Is my Lumagen HDQ not enough to do manual calibration the way you described?

On my HDQ:
- Greyscale: I don't use the 11- point geyscale for the the RGB curve but only my Red/Blue cut off and gain values (BG 808) on 20% and 80% window patterns.
- gamma : I use the 2-point greyscale option, and set only the luminance value to get a 2.2 or 2.35 gamma value. I didn't see a global gamma factor on the HDQ.
- color gamut: I use the CMS for primaries and try to get the secondaries as close to the reference as possible. It probably would not be as good as with a Radiance, but I can maybe get a deltaE between 4 and 5.

What do you think?

Also, read my earlier posts. You are not using the correct test pattern for low level grayscale, especially with your meter. Your meter cannot read that low.

craigr


Yes Craig, you are right. I have to forget about measuring on a 20% window pattern with my Display 3.
I'll do it with only 80% window pattern then.
Thanks for your help and patience with beginners Wink
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Nashou66



Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16167
Location: West Seneca NY


PostLink    Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 2:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Corleone88 wrote:
CIR Engineering wrote:
Corleone88 wrote:
Craig,

After what you said about the way to calibrate my BG808 + HD-144, I am wondering if I still need my Radiance.
Is my Lumagen HDQ not enough to do manual calibration the way you described?

On my HDQ:
- Greyscale: I don't use the 11- point geyscale for the the RGB curve but only my Red/Blue cut off and gain values (BG 808) on 20% and 80% window patterns.
- gamma : I use the 2-point greyscale option, and set only the luminance value to get a 2.2 or 2.35 gamma value. I didn't see a global gamma factor on the HDQ.
- color gamut: I use the CMS for primaries and try to get the secondaries as close to the reference as possible. It probably would not be as good as with a Radiance, but I can maybe get a deltaE between 4 and 5.

What do you think?

Also, read my earlier posts. You are not using the correct test pattern for low level grayscale, especially with your meter. Your meter cannot read that low.

craigr


Yes Craig, you are right. I have to forget about measuring on a 20% window pattern with my Display 3.
I'll do it with only 80% window pattern then.
Thanks for your help and patience with beginners Wink


No you should re set any grey scale and CMS in the Lumagens off or to default.

Now with the lumagen window patterns use 30% and 80% to set the G2 and drives in your barco.

When that is as flat as you can get it. then move to the greyscale 11 point in the lumagen ans use the lumagens controls to flatten out the Curve. Do not do the Color's or CMS. Craig says the HDQ does nto do that well.

If your going to use the Radiance then use the CMS and Greyscale. So if your using the
HDQ for LD playback only do not use it for any Greyscale or CMS. use only the radiance.


Am I correct in assuming your using Both VP's, the HDQ for the ability it has with LD and then the Radiance for everything esle?

Athanasios

_________________
Don't blame your underwear for your crooked ass~ unknown Greek philosopher


"Republicans believe every day is the Fourth of July, but the Democrats believe every day is April 15." --- President Reagan

One Smart Dog!!!

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Corleone88



Joined: 09 Dec 2006
Posts: 396
Location: France


PostLink    Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 2:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CIR Engineering wrote:
Corleone88 wrote:
Craig,

After what you said about the way to calibrate my BG808 + HD-144, I am wondering if I still need my Radiance.
Is my Lumagen HDQ not enough to do manual calibration the way you described?

On my HDQ:
- Greyscale: I don't use the 11- point geyscale for the the RGB curve but only my Red/Blue cut off and gain values (BG 808) on 20% and 80% window patterns.
- gamma : I use the 2-point greyscale option, and set only the luminance value to get a 2.2 or 2.35 gamma value. I didn't see a global gamma factor on the HDQ.
- color gamut: I use the CMS for primaries and try to get the secondaries as close to the reference as possible. It probably would not be as good as with a Radiance, but I can maybe get a deltaE between 4 and 5.

What do you think?

Yes, you need the Radiance. There is absolutely no comparison.

You should never use the CMS on the Vision with a CRT. That CMS is highly inaccurate and was only added on for the purpose of taming (not calibrating) the outrageous green and red primaries on early digital projectors. The CMS on the Vision will destroy your secondary colors and ruin your CRT image.

Not to mention that the Radiance does EVERYTHING else a whole lot better than the Vision ever could. The scaling is much better, the grayscale is logarithmic instead of linear, full HDMI support… and 1,000 other things are all better on the Radiance.


craigr


Ok, I will keep my Radiance. The only thing that it cannot do (unfortunately) is outputting 1080i@96. That is why I have to keep my HDQ until the Lumagen team releases a firmware fixing the problem (1080i is at 50 or 60Hz only whatever timing values you set).
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stridsvognen
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PostLink    Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 3:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CIR Engineering wrote:
stridsvognen wrote:
My Marquee 9500LC looked better before i got my Lumagen. I bought the lumagen for the 72hz option, and played around with the grayscale, and noticed some improvement, but guess there is no such thing as a free lunch.. So you will give some to get some.

In the end its all up to what you prefer.

For sure you need the projector calibrated as good as possible before you start correcting anything with the VP

Try calibrate your Barco just using the Barco controls.

Play with focus on the blue tube, and do the best grayscale you can adjusting G2 and Drive in the projector.

I Think the Lumagen makes wonders with digital displays, but i also think you have to be careful messing to much with the data when feeding a CRT projector..

( I have never calibrated any Barco CRT, so its possible i'm way off.)

I am not trying to be rude, but you clearly don't know what you are doing with a Radiance. Honestly, the Radiance was never supposed to be sold directly to end users because it is supposed to be setup by a professional who understands how to work with the processor. These are very complicated units and have an enormous plethora of calibration options that a normal human will not understand. Your findings, that the projector looked better without the Radiance highlights why Lumagen really doesn't want the processors to go directly to end users. Folks don’t know how to use the processor and then they may be unsatisfied with the outcome.

If you’re interested in every hiring me to do your setup your jaw will drop when I get done with it and you will appreciate the Radiance Wink

craigr


Thanks Craig..

That might be a option when i get my HT room up running again.. I agree that the radiance is a super tool, and i have played with it a few hundred hours after i took my CRT down. But if you can get a almost perfect result without using CMS and grayscale adjustments in the Radiance i think thats to prefer.. Ill only use the Radiance for light touchup on the grayscale.(blue)

And then i have some love left for the DVDO VP50 regarding deinterlacing and pass true on 1080P. And for analog inputs.. Not sure if my Radiance XS is a bit waco, but plugging component or any other analog input the contrast and brightness is way off, and using the DVDO its spot on and i then send 480P or 576P via HDMI to be scaled in the Radiance. Not to mention Laserdisc.. Thats a ugly thing to feed a Radiance.

The only problem getting to hire you calibrating my setup, is that i have very curious fingers, so i would need to know exactly how to do what you did, or it will be lost in just a few days..

I have lots to learn.. But ill keep going until i get it. Wink

I have not yet bought the autocalibrate software, and i think there is a lot to know before starting up calibrating with autocalibrate.. All marketing makes it sound like plug and play.. Is that really how it is.?

Craig let me know if you ever pass true Denmark
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