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Auto-calibration on BG 808 with HD-144
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Corleone88



Joined: 09 Dec 2006
Posts: 396
Location: France


PostLink    Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2013 9:01 pm    Post subject: Auto-calibration on BG 808 with HD-144 Reply with quote


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Hello,

Using a Lumagen XD, the auto-calibration gives me great results on greyscale but the colors are disappointing.
I have red with a deltaE of 4.5 which is not bad, but the green and blue are stuck between 6 and 7. The green looks far from the reference point. The secondary colors have very good deltaE.
Could it be better with auto-calibration pro or do I reached the limits of the BG808?
If someone has the same hardware configuration, could he share with me his results (deltaE on primary/secondary colours)?
Thanks
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Nashou66



Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16170
Location: West Seneca NY


PostLink    Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2013 9:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

First. does your Barco have Colored lenses for red and Green?

EDIT:Just realized your head line says HD144's oops I missed that.

If not then that could be one reason.

But even with Color corected lenses I found sometimes the auto color cal in
both Calman and in Chrompure don't do a perfect job each and every time.

My list of reasons.

One is the Persistence of the Green tube to stay lit for a longer time after changing to a lower IRE or
lightness of the color. When You look into the green tube and go from say 80 to 20 when doing the calibration before
using the Lumagen I notice that the green takes at least 10-20 seconds for it to stabilize to the lower IRE. if you have P43 Green it is much faster, like red and blue. Green stays lit up longer if not a P43. So in auto cal it works faster and does not hold off taking a
reading. So green never settles in.

Also for red , with CRt it is much dimmer than with A LCD or DLP. And I found some meters take a long time to read red.
The Secondaries are brighter than their corresponding Primaries so they get read more accurately.

I did a test where I cranked up contrast to 100 and took readings for the Primaries. readings were much faster
and more consistent in auto mode.

Also I found my primaries had better DE'd with no calibration. So either do them manually or shut off auto cal for primaries but leave them on for secondaries and greyscale.

then go back and touch up grey scale and gamma where needed.

Athanasios

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Last edited by Nashou66 on Sat Feb 16, 2013 10:36 pm; edited 1 time in total
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stridsvognen
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PostLink    Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2013 9:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Athanasios.

Thats great observations.. What about asking Cromapure and Calman for a CRT option with adjustable delay time on low level readings..? I imagine it also could be a problem with Plasma panels..
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Nashou66



Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16170
Location: West Seneca NY


PostLink    Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2013 10:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stridsvognen wrote:
Athanasios.

Thats great observations.. What about asking Cromapure and Calman for a CRT option with adjustable delay time on low level readings..? I imagine it also could be a problem with Plasma panels..


I asked Tom. he said it be too hard to do. But I just was thinking back on CalMan. i think they have a place where you can set the delay for pattern changes. But that wouldn't work either now that I think of it. The pattern would stay on
till the next change. I guess this is Probably why Craig doesn't do CRT's with auto cal then touch up.
greyscale is much better but I always have to fix 30, 40, or 50 % white.


Athanasios

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stridsvognen
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PostLink    Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2013 10:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nashou66 wrote:
stridsvognen wrote:
Athanasios.

Thats great observations.. What about asking Cromapure and Calman for a CRT option with adjustable delay time on low level readings..? I imagine it also could be a problem with Plasma panels..


I asked Tom. he said it be too hard to do. But I just was thinking back on CalMan. i think they have a place where you can set the delay for pattern changes. But that wouldn't work either now that I think of it. The pattern would stay on
till the next change. I guess this is Probably why Craig doesn't do CRT's with auto cal then touch up.
greyscale is much better but I always have to fix 30, 40, or 50 % white.


Athanasios


It is sure nice stuff to know.. If they dont like to support CRT calibration, we just as well calibrate manually.

Im quite sure there is some delay somewhere in the software, It cant be possible to measure same time as you change pattern. So I'm sure its possible to fix it, but there need to be a will.. So maybe some group pressure could help motivate the will.. Wink

Or maybe we need to talk to Lumagen.. They might tell the calibration software that the pattern is ready.? So maybe possible to delay that. But for sure the right place to fix it is in the calibration software.
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Corleone88



Joined: 09 Dec 2006
Posts: 396
Location: France


PostLink    Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2013 11:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Also I found my primaries had better DE'd with no calibration. So either do them manually or shut off auto cal for primaries but leave them on for secondaries and greyscale.


Thanks for the tips ! But how do you shut off auto cal for primaries and not for secondaries? I only see 3 check boxes : gamma, geyscale and color gamut.
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Nashou66



Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16170
Location: West Seneca NY


PostLink    Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2013 11:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh yeah. I haven't used it in a while. I thought they had separate boxes for them.

Nashou

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Corleone88



Joined: 09 Dec 2006
Posts: 396
Location: France


PostLink    Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 9:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here are my results:










Do you think that I can improve the blue and green deltaE if I calibrate manually?

EDIT: added pictures as attachment ~MOD
EDIT by Kal - I fixed your original picture links .You had an extra slash at the end
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TomHuffman



Joined: 01 Jun 2010
Posts: 71
Location: Springfield, MO


PostLink    Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 10:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

All of the colors, except red and yellow, are undersaturated. You cannot correct undersaturated colors with a CMS. First, select a preset in which the colors are oversaturated and then let the CMS bring them in.
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Corleone88



Joined: 09 Dec 2006
Posts: 396
Location: France


PostLink    Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 10:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TomHuffman wrote:
All of the colors, except red and yellow, are undersaturated. You cannot correct undersaturated colors with a CMS. First, select a preset in which the colors are oversaturated and then let the CMS bring them in.


Ok , but how do you select a preset (I don't understand what you mean, sorry Embarassed ) ?
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stridsvognen
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PostLink    Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 10:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is it possible you can upload pics direct here, i have some problems with your links. And do you have a measurement without any correction..?
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AnalogRocks
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Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 25456
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada

TV/Projector: Sony 1252Q, AMPRO 4000G


PostLink    Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 11:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

stridsvognen wrote:
Is it possible you can upload pics direct here, i have some problems with your links. And do you have a measurement without any correction..?


Check the post above, I attached the pictures for him.

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stridsvognen
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PostLink    Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 11:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

looks like you will do much better manually.. You should easy be able to put the light on blue spot on. And red was oversaturated before you started, so that should not be a problem to get right to. looks like the green is more or less as good as can get..
'
Someone correct me if i'm wrong..
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Corleone88



Joined: 09 Dec 2006
Posts: 396
Location: France


PostLink    Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 1:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tom seems to suggest that I can have oversatured colors by changing the "preset", but I cannot figure out what he is talking about.
Is it something from the OPPO settings or from the BG 808 adjustements (Red cut off value,...) or G2 values ?
The good news is that I can get better results if I change manually.
If I change the color gamut values, do I have to check if the greyscale has been impacted or is it not related?
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Nashou66



Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16170
Location: West Seneca NY


PostLink    Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 2:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

With CRT there are no Presets. You'll have to you have Colored Lenses correct? I wonder if your Green tube is worn too much to get proper green output.

Blue is always off, even mine has a high DE.

Nashou

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Corleone88



Joined: 09 Dec 2006
Posts: 396
Location: France


PostLink    Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 2:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am also wondering if I have a correct set of HD-144. I have colored stickers on them which are ok but which part of the lens is supposed to be colored: glass or plastic? I say that because on top of the green lens, I have another sticker, saying that it is for the blue Crying or Very sad

I checked with a lamp through the lenses attached to the tubes: red lens looks red, green looks white and blue looks cyan.
It seems that the green and blue lenses must be swapped (wrong stickers ??). Am I right?
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CIR Engineering



Joined: 25 Aug 2008
Posts: 3886
Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany


PostLink    Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 3:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

With color corrected lenses the green lens should look greenish, the red lens should look redish, and I am pretty sure the blue lens should be clear. If you have an old clear lens you could use that on blue. In fact, if you have a blue colored lens I would suggest switching to a clear one because blue does not require correction.

With the color corrected lenses you should have a gamut that is HUGELY oversaturated. Your measured points for red and green should be so far outside the Rec709 gamut that you will have to measure again to believe it.

Blue phosphor is very close to perfect without correction which is why you don't need a blue lens. Green is under saturated in the "x and y" direction with a clear lens, and red is under saturated in the "y" direction and oversaturated in the "x" direction with a clear lens.

I actually think (my opinion) that the 8" AC machines look much better with clear lenses... unless you have a Radiance Smile With the Radiance you can calibrate and get really phenomenal colors with the color corrected lenses.

For your projector I would suggest doing the entire calibration manually. Do black, white, gamma, and grayscale in the projector first. Don't make any adjustments to grayscale, black, or white in the Lumagen at all. Seriously just leave them alone. You can make the projector measure better if you go back and touch up the grayscale in the Radiance, but don’t… it won' look better and it might actually hurt the image.

After that you can adjust “gamma factor” in the Radiance to taste. Just move the gamma factor up or down until you are happy with the image. This is the only measurement that has some subjectivity involved and experience really helps. It may take you some time to settle on a gamma factor. You can go back and measure the 10-point grayscale once you find a setting you like just to see what the gamma measures. Anything between 2.2 and 2.5 is within industry guidelines.

Novices tend to adjust gamma too low so be careful of this. Gamma too low makes dark details really easy to see, but it destroys the depth of the image and makes everything look washed out. Gamma too low will make all other aspects of the image look wrong.

Once that is done, do a manual 8-point color gamut. You should not touch blue at all, leave it alone no matter what your probe says. But manually calibrate red, green, cyan, magenta, and yellow. Once that's done you should have a superstar.

The 8" AC machines with color corrected lenses and a properly calibrated Radiance are truly a beautiful sight to see. You will know it when you see it Wink

craigr

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Phone: 865-405-6892
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Corleone88



Joined: 09 Dec 2006
Posts: 396
Location: France


PostLink    Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 4:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks a lot Craig, I will try your tips. Here is my geyscale without any correction from the Radiance :



Is it good enough?

And this is my gamma (corrected with the XD) :



For Blu-ray movie in a complete dark room, the best gamma value is 2.4 or not ?

Last thing : what about the white adjustement (contrast value)? I read somewhere that for a CRT projector you should display a window pattern 100% white and measures between 10 and 12FT/l. Is it the correct method?
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TomHuffman



Joined: 01 Jun 2010
Posts: 71
Location: Springfield, MO


PostLink    Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 5:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Corleone88 wrote:
TomHuffman wrote:
All of the colors, except red and yellow, are undersaturated. You cannot correct undersaturated colors with a CMS. First, select a preset in which the colors are oversaturated and then let the CMS bring them in.


Ok , but how do you select a preset (I don't understand what you mean, sorry Embarassed ) ?
A Picture preset--Dynamic, Standard, Movie, etc. Operating modes with different picture characteristics.
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stridsvognen
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PostLink    Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 5:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TomHuffman wrote:
Corleone88 wrote:
TomHuffman wrote:
All of the colors, except red and yellow, are undersaturated. You cannot correct undersaturated colors with a CMS. First, select a preset in which the colors are oversaturated and then let the CMS bring them in.


Ok , but how do you select a preset (I don't understand what you mean, sorry Embarassed ) ?
A Picture preset--Dynamic, Standard, Movie, etc. Operating modes with different picture characteristics.


Tom.. Its a BARCO CRT projector.. Smile
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