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My new JVC digital projector (DLA-X75R/DLA-RS56)
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benareeno




Joined: 22 Mar 2006
Posts: 1614
Location: ottawa, canada


PostLink    Posted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 2:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote


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I have...sony store has it on a huuuuuge screen. Looks good, but not because of resolution.

4k tv's look no better than 1080p....
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benareeno




Joined: 22 Mar 2006
Posts: 1614
Location: ottawa, canada


PostLink    Posted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 2:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

at least, not at a regular viewing distance.
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benareeno




Joined: 22 Mar 2006
Posts: 1614
Location: ottawa, canada


PostLink    Posted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 2:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

if they're 2 inches from your face, like an ipod...they may return some viewable value on photographs. But, I still doubt they would deliver anything better on video.
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ecrabb
Forum Moderator



Joined: 13 Mar 2006
Posts: 15909
Location: Utah

TV/Projector: JVC RS40, Epson 5010


PostLink    Posted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 3:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

benareeno wrote:
I have...sony store has it on a huuuuuge screen. Looks good, but not because of resolution.

Really? What is it, then?

benareeno wrote:
4k tv's look no better than 1080p....

Totally depends on how close you sit. Large living room with 2 or 3 screen widths viewing distance? You wont see the difference. Small, intimate living room with 3 or 4 chairs 6 or 8 feet from a 60-inch display? 4k will be noticeably superior.

benareeno wrote:
at least, not at a regular viewing distance.

What's "regular"? At my "regular" viewing distance, I can see pixels on small details like end credits, point-source lights, etc. I have to look for them, but I can clearly see them if I do look for them. At my "regular" viewing distance, it's a big difference.

benareeno wrote:
if they're 2 inches from your face, like an ipod...they may return some viewable value on photographs. But, I still doubt they would deliver anything better on video.

Nope. It doesn't need to be that close to see the difference. 4k looks massively better than 1080p if you are anywhere remotely near 1x screen width. Even at 1.2x-plus, the difference is clearly visible, and the difference is noticeable even at 1.5x screen widths.

At the 4k demo in the Sony booth at CEDIA, even from behind the back row, which was probably 1.3 or 1.4x screen widths, I could clearly and easily tell the difference between the native 4k material, and the upscaled 1080p material. I was immediately taken back to the time when we watched scaled 480p or even 720p material on a 1080p display; the substandard source was easily noticeable.

This whole 4k thing isn't just some marketing ploy; it's significantly and quantitatively better at normal viewing angles we have in our home theaters. Do some critical viewing with good source material and you'll find out for yourself.

SC
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benareeno




Joined: 22 Mar 2006
Posts: 1614
Location: ottawa, canada


PostLink    Posted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 5:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

6 or 8 ft from a 60 inch screen...I have done that test already. It's no better...perhaps a bit better, but not 4k better. It just isn't...

if 1080p screens had no pixels, it would be amazing....

until there is significant viewing material, I wouldn't even consider it. I'd much rather watch native 1080p on a 1080p tv/projector and keep some money in the bank.

In fact...I would much rather watch 720p from Blu-ray on my 50 dollar Barco. Looks really good...and I'm not kidding..it does!
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gjaky




Joined: 05 Jun 2010
Posts: 2789
Location: Budapest, Hungary


PostLink    Posted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 9:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ecrabb wrote:
This whole 4k thing isn't just some marketing ploy; it's significantly and quantitatively better at normal viewing angles we have in our home theaters. Do some critical viewing with good source material and you'll find out for yourself.


But the best thing with the UHD would be the standardization of the REC.2020 color space, and I'm not sure how many of the current 4K displays are capable of doing this (I think zero) so a current 4K display could be just as useless as any other non 4K display... I think it's too early yet.

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projectors in the past : NEC 6-9PG xtra, Electrohome Marquee 6-7500, NEC XG 1351 LC ( with super modified Electrohome VNB neckboard !!!)
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HogPilot




Joined: 21 Jan 2010
Posts: 2383


TV/Projector: Vizio P702ui-B3, Pioneer Elite Pro-151FD & 111FD


PostLink    Posted: Sat Oct 05, 2013 8:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

gjaky wrote:
ecrabb wrote:
This whole 4k thing isn't just some marketing ploy; it's significantly and quantitatively better at normal viewing angles we have in our home theaters. Do some critical viewing with good source material and you'll find out for yourself.


But the best thing with the UHD would be the standardization of the REC.2020 color space, and I'm not sure how many of the current 4K displays are capable of doing this (I think zero) so a current 4K display could be just as useless as any other non 4K display... I think it's too early yet.


Good point - here's a comparison of REC.2020 with REC.709:



Given the significantly more saturated red and green primaries, and the mandatory increase in bit-depth from 8 to a minimum of 10 bits, I'd also like to see whether current commercial 4K displays can support 2020 or not. Good read here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rec._2020



rec2020-vs-rec709-001.png
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rec2020-vs-rec709-001.png



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ecrabb wrote:
Curt Palme wrote:
Interesting, Mac isn't returning my emails. Go figure.

He's mad at us for making Hog a moderator. He took his ball and went home.

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garyfritz




Joined: 08 Apr 2006
Posts: 12024
Location: Fort Collins, CO


PostLink    Posted: Sun Oct 06, 2013 12:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wonder how much difference there really is in that extended color range? Looking at it on the screen, it doesn't look that different. But then I realized, duh, my screen probably can't display anything beyond the rec.709 range... Embarassed
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kal
Forum Administrator



Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 17850
Location: Ottawa, Canada

TV/Projector: JVC DLA-NZ7


PostLink    Posted: Sun Jan 05, 2014 3:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Update:

I've had my RS56 for exactly one year now.There's just over 1000 hours on it. It uses a newer bulb than the previous years models where some of the early bulbs had light output issues (bulbs dimming early/bulbs dying early). They supposedly fixed these issues by the third generation of bulbs, but my model uses a completely new bulb as many of you (know. It's one of the reasons I waited a bit to buy an RS56 instead of an RS55).

I run an 8 foot wide 16x9 screen with ~1.1-1.2 gain.

I run the projector in low lamp mode with the iris at -6 (range is 0 to -15 where 0 is open all the way) and have been tracking the light output using a light meter as the bulb ages:

Projector installed early January 2013.

Apr 14/2013 - 424 hours: 10.5 ft/L
July 23/2013 - 646 hours: 10.4 ft/L
Nov 19/2013 - 931 hours: 10.0 ft/L

Note: I'm kicking myself for not taking a bunch of measurements in the first 400 hours as I was curious how it behaved during this time. I did not however notice a massive light drop off in the first ~400 hours. I never felt I needed to adjust the iris during this time. On my next bulb (already purchased) I'll definitely measure it every ~100 hours or so.

At 931 hours I changed the iris from -6 to -5 and light output jumped up to 10.7 ft/L.

This 6.5% change in light output is barely perceivable. I notice it of course as I play with the iris but if someone was to choose one of the two iris settings and ask me which one it was, I could never tell.

I've got 5 more notches of light increase I can get by opening up the iris more before I have to start running in high lamp mode, and I'm fairly confident I'll never have to go there which is great as the projector is quite literally dead silent in low lamp mode. On high (which is used automatically for 3D content) the projector's fan(s) are noticeable. Most people wouldn't care but I wouldn't be able to run it 100% of the time in high lamp mode without some form of hushbox/sound isolation which can get complex (forced venting required to do it properly).

All things said and done, I'm really pleased with this machine. I wouldn't change a thing.

Kal

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stridsvognen
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PostLink    Posted: Sun Jan 05, 2014 4:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Very nice to see you tracked the light output. Hope you will keep follow it an post it here. Thumbs Up
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Spanky Ham




Joined: 22 Mar 2006
Posts: 5643
Location: Comedy Central


PostLink    Posted: Sun Jan 05, 2014 4:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That is good to know, Kal.

As much as I want to stay CRT, I will probably make the switch to digital when I finally move into my place. The new JVCs with the iris sound like they have taken digital on/off to a new level.
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Audiophile




Joined: 23 Jun 2012
Posts: 29
Location: Manassas, VA


PostLink    Posted: Sun Jan 05, 2014 10:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Kal, great write up. I have owned my RS40U for ~2 years with zero issues. Coming from a high-end CRT projector I didn't think the digitals could compete. The JVC reference series (RS) has proven digitals can compete with high-end CRT projectors... it only took the digital makers ~10 years to get to this level of performance though! Smile
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kal
Forum Administrator



Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 17850
Location: Ottawa, Canada

TV/Projector: JVC DLA-NZ7


PostLink    Posted: Sun Jan 05, 2014 11:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

@ Audiophile:Agreed! I had a lot of trepidation going digital hoping that it would be "at least as good" and that quickly turned into "aw crap - look what I've been missing!". Wink Now that said, I didn't have an uber-high-end 9" CRT machine. (Mine was a an 8" LC with what I consider fairly soft focusing lenses).

I've seen digitals for years and for years I couldn't understand how anyone could actually watch some of them. They were that horrible. That changed around 2007-2008 or so (IIRC) when I saw a JVC RS1 (one of the first gen of the current JVC line) and thought for the first time "I could probably live with this". It had some issues like lack of depth or 'pop' (low contrast ratio) and really oversaturated primaries (esp green) but they were certainly going in the right direction. At least (for the first time) you didn't see big fat square pixels staring you in the face (the fill factor was very good). Things just got better since then....

Kal

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Spanky Ham




Joined: 22 Mar 2006
Posts: 5643
Location: Comedy Central


PostLink    Posted: Mon Jan 06, 2014 3:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

With the new DI, I would like to see a comparison of on/off cr between the JVC and gamma 9" CRT. I bet they would be closer than a lot here would think. One person on AVS commented that his black level is so low that he is crushing blacks. Sound familiar? Smile
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Audiophile




Joined: 23 Jun 2012
Posts: 29
Location: Manassas, VA


PostLink    Posted: Thu Jan 09, 2014 5:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A 9" CRT vs the JVC would indeed be an interesting comparison. As Kal stated, with the RS1 on, JVC really changed the digital projector market. Anyone that has only seen the grey washed out blacks and screen door effects of most digital projectors should see a well set up JVC. They are quite amazing.
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ecrabb
Forum Moderator



Joined: 13 Mar 2006
Posts: 15909
Location: Utah

TV/Projector: JVC RS40, Epson 5010


PostLink    Posted: Thu Jan 09, 2014 6:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Audiophile wrote:
A 9" CRT vs the JVC would indeed be an interesting comparison. As Kal stated, with the RS1 on, JVC really changed the digital projector market. Anyone that has only seen the grey washed out blacks and screen door effects of most digital projectors should see a well set up JVC. They are quite amazing.


Having seen my share of 9-inch machines, the two would be very comparable PQ-wise. The CRT would be silkier-smoother, a little softer, with excellent color and zero pixels, screen door, banding, or other artifacts, and of course it would have better on/off for awesome blacks.

The JVC would be a little sharper, a little brighter so so it could handle a slightly larger (AT) screen, and it would easily and conveniently switch between larger scope and smaller 16:9 without an expensive outboard processor.

Where the JVC would really shine, though (and why I was pretty off CRT when I finally switched) is that it's damn near dead silent, and the CRT… Isn't… Not even with a hush box. The quietest CRT in the best hush box is way noisier than a JVC, which is essentially nearly silent unless your ears are less than a couple of feet away.

I was so used to a huge, loud proctor, I was desensitized. I had no idea how unbelievably nice it was going to be to have almost no noise from the projector. Quietness is totally under-rated - especially if you have a dedicated room with a low noise floor to begin with. If I don't turn on my amps, the fan and hard drive in my DVR ten feet away is louder than the projector. Next up, quieting the fans in my amps to lower the noise floor in my room even more.

SC
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Spanky Ham




Joined: 22 Mar 2006
Posts: 5643
Location: Comedy Central


PostLink    Posted: Thu Jan 09, 2014 7:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think some guys have measured over 300k to 1 on/off cr with the new DI JVCs. If that is close to an accurate measurement, then I am not sure a CRT would win. The highest on/off cr I have ever heard is for Steve Smith's G70, which Darin measured at 700k to 1. IIRC Cliffy's stack was measured somewhere close to that. If one considered that the ceiling, then what are most other CRTs doing without crushing blacks?
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garyfritz




Joined: 08 Apr 2006
Posts: 12024
Location: Fort Collins, CO


PostLink    Posted: Thu Jan 09, 2014 9:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

But who wants a DI? Unless they look a WHOLE lot better than the ones I've seen (not recently I'll admit), I wouldn't use it. The overall brightness level "pumping" drives me crazy -- kind of like a visual equivalent of an overly-compressed audio file. Whenever you kick the bass drum, everything else gets quieter. Whenever the DI sees something bright, everything else gets dimmer. Yuck.

Have they resolved that?
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ecrabb
Forum Moderator



Joined: 13 Mar 2006
Posts: 15909
Location: Utah

TV/Projector: JVC RS40, Epson 5010


PostLink    Posted: Thu Jan 09, 2014 9:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, Spanky… Digital on/off is getting very close with the last few generations of projectors, and yes, most CRT guys are crushing black a little to get pure 'can't see your hand in front of your face' black. I would point out however that it's both better black levels AND brighter projectors that's driving the on/off contrast numbers up.

Now that my JVC has settled down a little, and no doubt light output has dropped off a little, I'm very satisfied with black level. No, it's not crazy CRT black that always makes you giddy during the Lightning McQueen dream scene, but it's so much better in almost every other regard, I'm more than happy to give a little in one area.

Gary, there are both good and poor DI implementations, and recently, they've gotten much better, faster, and quieter, and more closely mimicking how the eye works.

The great thing about the JVC projectors is they have excellent black level and on/off natively. Unless you're trying to use too big of a screen, they have plenty of brightness, which means you can leave the iris closed (or close to it), which means even better contrast. So, if you don't like the DI, leave it off and using the projector like it is. If history is any guide, JVC will probably give you 3 or 4 settings, like low-medium-high or 0-4 or something so you tailor it to your taste.

SC
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garyfritz




Joined: 08 Apr 2006
Posts: 12024
Location: Fort Collins, CO


PostLink    Posted: Thu Jan 09, 2014 11:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yup, if you have plenty of brightness, then the DI can be used in fixed mode to adjust as the bulb gradually dims. That makes perfect sense. The DI, well, I'd have to see it.
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