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My new JVC digital projector (DLA-X75R/DLA-RS56)
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kal
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Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 16487
Location: Ottawa, Canada

TV/Projector: JVC DLA-RS56


PostLink    Posted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 5:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote


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It has a full CMS. I'll use a Lumagen with the new 125 point autocalibrate most likely anyway because (a) it'll let me fix the inside of gamut (not just the outside points) and (b) I can use auto-calibrate. I'm all for doing things the easier way. I have no love of calibration. It's necessary work to get to where you want to be.

Kal

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kal
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Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 16487
Location: Ottawa, Canada

TV/Projector: JVC DLA-RS56


PostLink    Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 2:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A couple of RS56 / X75 users over at AVS mentioned that they were experiencing crushed blacks when using the "Standard" HDMI (16-235) option on the projector instead of "enhanced" HDMI (0-255).

I found that idea puzzling. Properly calibrated they should give the same result.

So last night I changed my RS56 to "enhanced" and recalibrated the brightness and contrast accordingly. Brightness had to go from 0 down to -7 and contrast went from 0 to +16. I was using the various patterns on the AVS709 test disc meant specifically for setting the black/white points to test.

I ended up exactly where I was before, same black level, same white level (perfect, no crushing or clipping). This is what I would have expected.

So I went back to "standard" with brightness and contrast both at 0.

Strange. I can only chalk it up to user inexperience/ignorance. This stuff can be confusing.

TL/DR: Both standard HDMI (16-235) and "enhanced" HDMI (0-255) give you same information. There's no difference.

Kal

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Last edited by kal on Tue Dec 20, 2016 3:58 am; edited 1 time in total
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ecrabb
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Joined: 13 Mar 2006
Posts: 15909
Location: Utah

TV/Projector: JVC RS40, Epson 5010


PostLink    Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 4:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting, Kal. So, the endpoints are the same once you recalibrate, but I wonder if there could be a processing difference that could result in more/less banding with one setting or the other. Did you look at any of the other patterns (ramp?) to see if there was any (visible/noticeable) difference?

SC
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kal
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Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 16487
Location: Ottawa, Canada

TV/Projector: JVC DLA-RS56


PostLink    Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 4:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I did. I went through both the black -> white ramp and step patterns on the AVS709 disc. No issues.

Kal

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dturco



Joined: 06 Feb 2009
Posts: 3779
Location: Eastern Shore Maryland

TV/Projector: Runco DLP VX-3000i Marquee 9500 parts doner


PostLink    Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 5:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wouldn't expect to see any difference in either scheme. The algorithm used by the JVC's chip is most likely a constant value for voltage output regardless of what the "number" displayed is or which designation [standard/enhanced] is chosen.
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stridsvognen
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PostLink    Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 1:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kal did you try the HCFR disc 1% steps 0-5% and 95-100% IRE I think its a very nice tool. I never had the AVS709 disc, so i don't know if it have 1% steps. I never could measure the 1% ire, but its possible to get it on screen, you just need to step close to see it..
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VideoGrabber



Joined: 09 Apr 2006
Posts: 933
Location: Michigan


PostLink    Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 3:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kal wrote:
I just spent a hour playing with the 1/16th fine convergence (affects the whole screen) and got everything dialed in. I confirmed that this does not affect resolution at all by using 1 on / 1 off pixel patterns to make sure that nothing "funky" is going on under the covers and pixels are being thrown away. I moved both red and blue 1/4 to 1/2 pixel in various directions to get convergence slightly more even. Visible from the seating distance? Nope. Not at all. But I wanted it more perfect. Wink

You are one sick puppy, my friend. Mr. Green (A disease I sadly happen to share.)

I find it interesting though that (some) people are willing to spend (waste) time on making something "more perfecter", that they will never be able to see under normal circumstances.

I am a bit surprised to hear that the adjustments had no negative results on the image. That's unexpected, and pretty cool. Thanks a lot for your report.

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overclkr



Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 4227



PostLink    Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 3:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

WTF? No screenshots?
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WanMan



Joined: 19 Mar 2006
Posts: 10270



PostLink    Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 8:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I know. I'd expect porn to be available in Kal's town.
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kal
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Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 16487
Location: Ottawa, Canada

TV/Projector: JVC DLA-RS56


PostLink    Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 2:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stridsvognen wrote:
Kal did you try the HCFR disc 1% steps 0-5% and 95-100% IRE I think its a very nice tool. I never had the AVS709 disc, so i don't know if it have 1% steps. I never could measure the 1% ire, but its possible to get it on screen, you just need to step close to see it..

The AVS709 disc has similar tests (near black, near white).

VideoGrabber wrote:
I find it interesting though that (some) people are willing to spend (waste) time on making something "more perfecter", that they will never be able to see under normal circumstances.

Yep. The adjustments are available and take a few seconds to use, so why not do them. I'm not always at typical seating distance either... Wink

Screenshots are a good idea. I should try some.

Kal

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dturco



Joined: 06 Feb 2009
Posts: 3779
Location: Eastern Shore Maryland

TV/Projector: Runco DLP VX-3000i Marquee 9500 parts doner


PostLink    Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 2:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Captain obvious wrote:
"Screenshots are a good idea. I should try some."



Ahem, a yeah, ahhhhh, Laughing

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draganm



Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 8952
Location: Colorado


PostLink    Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 4:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kal, why is it 17+ feet away from your screen? Is that required or did you just push it as far back from the screen as possible to get away from what little fan noise there is?

is a 1.2 gain screen ideal or is that just what you had ? Are you running a scaler or just using the PJ's internal controls?
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ecrabb
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Joined: 13 Mar 2006
Posts: 15909
Location: Utah

TV/Projector: JVC RS40, Epson 5010


PostLink    Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 4:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dragan,

The throw on the JVC's is quite flexible... At the short end, it can be almost as close as a CRT like a G70. At the long end, it can be much further back. The benefit of the long throw is that it doesn't have be right behind the first row, or right over an aisle where somebody could hit their head. It's also nice to have it a few more feet away, since as you mentioned, you'd eliminate any possibility of hearing what little fan noise it does make.

You can see in the photo of Kal's basement that the CRT would have really screwed up the ceiling, and you can also see where the ceiling is much higher over the second row:



I'm actually using my JVC almost at the minimum throw because I had the ceiling all jacked up from the CRT, and I have an exhaust intake that the projector would have to go behind, because the projector exhaust is on the front. I'll post a pic of the hole left by the G70 and hushbox with an RS45 in its place if anybody really cares.

1.2 gain is pretty close to ideal, though you could go probably 9-10-feet wide at that gain. At Kal's screen size, you can even get away with a 1.0-1.1-gain with the JVC's if you don't plan on much 3D (which you probably aren't with the JVC anyway).

SC
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draganm



Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 8952
Location: Colorado


PostLink    Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 7:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ok thanks. What about AR, are you and Kal still running 16:9's or is everybody doing CIH now with letter boxing on the sides for 16:9 content.?
I remember seeing an RS1 with anamoprhic lens that did motorized screen CIH but that still seems extremely expensive
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ecrabb
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Joined: 13 Mar 2006
Posts: 15909
Location: Utah

TV/Projector: JVC RS40, Epson 5010


PostLink    Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 7:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm still running 16:9 and I think Kal is, too. I'm actually considering switching to scope for one reason only, and that is to get my scope material bigger than my 1.78/1.85 material. A side benefit is the sight lines will be much better for my second row. The cool thing about the 2012 and 2013 JVCs is they have not only motorized lens shift, zoom, and focus, but they have a memory, too. So, you can recall a config with a couple of button presses (which can also be programmed into a macro). I'll have to throw away a bit of light to do it (which will have the side benefit of slightly better black level), but I'll have a brighter/smaller 16:9 screen for sports and kids' movies and games that we might want to watch with the lights on.

The lens recall feature was particularly interesting to me, and why I picked a B-stock 2012 model over a 2011 model (which I could have purchased at savings), as I have/had zero interest spending as much on an anamorphic lens as I spent on my projector.

I have to say, after watching movies in a few people's theaters with AT scope screens, it truly is the ultimate home cinema experience. After all, you really are replicating what we've been experiencing in a commercial cinema for decades, only much better, of course. Scope is awesome, and AT is even more awesome. The sound coming from inside the picture is just... Well... Amazing.

SC
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ElTopo



Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 1556



PostLink    Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 9:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Scope is the way to go Thumbs Up
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kal
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Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 16487
Location: Ottawa, Canada

TV/Projector: JVC DLA-RS56


PostLink    Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 9:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm still running 16x9 ratio, a 96x54" screen.

Scope wasn't in the cards for this basement reno but I did leave room for doing an accoustically transparent (AT) screen by putting an empty & insulated A/V room behind the screen wall. Reason for doing is that to do scope in my limited width (12') I'd need to put the speakers behind an AT screen.

Kal

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VideoGrabber



Joined: 09 Apr 2006
Posts: 933
Location: Michigan


PostLink    Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 10:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

draganm wrote:
Kal, why is it 17+ feet away from your screen? Is that required or did you just push it as far back from the screen as possible to get away from what little fan noise there is?

With the screen size Kal currently has, he could have placed the JVC anywhere from 11.2 to 22.4 feet from the screen. Of course, doing so at either extreme would eliminate any possibility of any zoom in (or out, depending which side he chose). As it is, he has leeway in either direction.

He can also accommodate some changes in screen size later. I.e., if he were to move his speakers behind an AT screen. E.g., he could retain his full current 54" screen height if he wanted, and go 10.8' on the width, and still have the margin to run both scope (at 2.40 AR) and 16:9. That expanded screen size would cost him 45% of his current lumen output capability though (on scope), which might be more than he'd be comfortable with, especially as the bulb aged. I.e., he'll only be getting 0.55x of whatever he's currently seeing in brightness. An AT screen would probably drop even that down a hair (~1.1 gain). Thereby moving him into the uncomfortable land of "I need a hushbox" again.

But at a 17' throw distance, the JVC can handle a screen (or projection area) from 6-12' wide.

Quote:
is a 1.2 gain screen ideal or is that just what you had?

Both.

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VideoGrabber



Joined: 09 Apr 2006
Posts: 933
Location: Michigan


PostLink    Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 10:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whoops, I just went back and checked, and Kal is really almost at 18' (17'9). So my numbers above would need to be adjusted to compensate (off by 4.4%). Which I'm not going to do.
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kal
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Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 16487
Location: Ottawa, Canada

TV/Projector: JVC DLA-RS56


PostLink    Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 10:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

draganm wrote:
Kal, why is it 17+ feet away from your screen? Is that required or did you just push it as far back from the screen as possible to get away from what little fan noise there is?


Biggest reason to use as long throw as possible was to get the best contrast ratio. The lenses are also better if you try and use the center as much as possible and going farther back means you use less of the lens.


Quote:
is a 1.2 gain screen ideal or is that just what you had ? Are you running a scaler or just using the PJ's internal controls?

A close to unity gain screen (slightly above) is what I like for CRT and for today's better digitals. (Like what Tim said).
Back when digitals had sucky blacks you'd see sub-unity (0.8 gain) screens to make up for the shortcoming. Now good digitals use similar to what the best CRT's use, like 1.3 or so gain screens.

I'd prefer 1.3 but couldn't get it with the screen I painted myself (1.1-1.2 gain). It's good enough.

Kal

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