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screen design recommendations and ideas requested
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mr_ro_co




Joined: 08 May 2006
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PostLink    Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 11:16 pm    Post subject: screen design recommendations and ideas requested Reply with quote


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Guys,

I'm somewhat recovered from another house purchase and household move but am back to square one on the home theater front. I have a large room for it and can do a 10' wide screen this time. I have all the projector hardware collected for two matched and maxxed-out 9500 Ultras and will be doing a blend setup.

The only good screen option is to do a motorized roll-down type because it will be located along a wall right against windows and well below the ceiling. The room is a very high ceiling "great room" with 7 large windows. I will get the requisite light control by using roll down blinds in border light traps, something I had to do with my previous HT room.

Is my only quality option the bank-breaking tab-tensioned megascreen, or is there a viable DIY option? My past screens have all been foam-core types that could flip up and stow against the ceiling. That is not an option with this new room because the ceiling is way too high for it. I've seen DIY motorized roll downs that used a free hanging 3~4" sand filled PVC pipe for valence and screen tension but don't know if good screen material is compatible with such an approach.

TIA!

Steve

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Spanky Ham




Joined: 22 Mar 2006
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PostLink    Posted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 7:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think you are introducing a potential problem with a roll up screen. You are going to have a blend, which seems to be pretty finicky to begin with. A roll up could only exacerbate that.

That being said I would check out Elite Screens. Mechman over at HTshack has measurements on their screen materials. Unfortunately it is still in the $2k range. I haven't really payed attention to the DIY options.
http://www.elitescreens.com/index.php?option=com_specs&field=ratio&value=2.35%3A1&Itemid=54&lang=en
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ecrabb
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Joined: 13 Mar 2006
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TV/Projector: JVC RS40, Epson 5010


PostLink    Posted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 8:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Any commercial electric roll-down is going to be a couple grand. Like Spanky, I know nothing of DIY roll-down solutions, but it's either spend $2k, find something used (probably not likely), or DIY.

SC
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mr_ro_co




Joined: 08 May 2006
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PostLink    Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 11:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Steve, Spanky,

Thank you very much for the input. If I can get a very well behaved motorized roll down in the $2K~$5K range, that's fine. I'm just sticker shocked by the big Stewarts that retail for $20K. Can't drop that kind of coin. But I also don't have the time or interest in a DIY solution that I would have to design and build. It's going to take plenty long to figure out exactly how I'm going to hang the two projectors in this new setup.

Much thanks,

Steve

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ecrabb
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PostLink    Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2012 12:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Steve,

Give Chris Seymour at Seymour AV a call. He's very knowledgable and built his business selling to the hard-core DIY audience... Sort of picked up his business where Reuben left off when he ditched the forum crowd.

http://www.seymourav.com

SC
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mr_ro_co




Joined: 08 May 2006
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PostLink    Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2012 4:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ecrabb wrote:
Steve,

Give Chris Seymour at Seymour AV a call. He's very knowledgable and built his business selling to the hard-core DIY audience... Sort of picked up his business where Reuben left off when he ditched the forum crowd.

http://www.seymourav.com

SC


Excellent - will do.

Steve

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Spanky Ham




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PostLink    Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2012 5:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you are willing to spend $5k, then your options open up. I would definitely check out your options at Elite. That being said, I would really give a hard look at DNP. They have some impressive screens that may work really well for your situation.
http://www.dnp-screens.com/DNP08/Products/Front-projection/Retractable-screens.aspx
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ecrabb
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PostLink    Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2012 5:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

DNP? Really, Spanky? It looks like their two screen materials are either .8 gain like a greyhawk, which I would avoid for CRT, or high-gain, which won't work for a blend. Am I missing something?

SC
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Spanky Ham




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PostLink    Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2012 2:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is something he should try to see in a showroom, as YMMV. When I looked at their screens at Cedia last year, I was impressed. I know Mechman has tested one and he says that would be the screen he buys if he had the disposable income.
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mr_ro_co




Joined: 08 May 2006
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PostLink    Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2012 4:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is great - I will review consider all these products.

Steve, what is the rule of thumb for gain with a blend? I assumed I could still use 1.2.

Also, I seem to recall an acoustically transparent screen won't work with a blend? Is that right?

Steve

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ecrabb
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PostLink    Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2012 4:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No, I get that's a great screen, Spanky... No doubt, and if he had a JVC, it looks awesome. But, looking at the gain numbers, I just don't see how either of their materials would work at all for a CRT blend. I could be wrong, but it looks like bad news with either of their materials. I think you want something like a 1.1-1.3 diffuse white screen for a blend to best hide the blend and not create twin hot-spots.

Where's Bob or Athanasios when we need them?

SC
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ecrabb
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PostLink    Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2012 4:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mr_ro_co wrote:
Steve, what is the rule of thumb for gain with a blend? I assumed I could still use 1.2.

I'm not a blend guy, but yes - I assume 1.1-1.2 is good, and 1.3 maybe even OK, but I'd guess that's about the limit.

mr_ro_co wrote:
Also, I seem to recall an acoustically transparent screen won't work with a blend? Is that right?

Hmmm.... Not sure about that one, or why that would be. I'll PM Athanasios... As a blend guy, I'm sure he can chime in on this.

EDIT - Cliffy's side-by-side stack is AT. Hmmm...

SC
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mr_ro_co




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PostLink    Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2012 4:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ecrabb wrote:
mr_ro_co wrote:
Steve, what is the rule of thumb for gain with a blend? I assumed I could still use 1.2.

I'm not a blend guy, but yes - I assume 1.1-1.2 is good, and 1.3 maybe even OK, but I'd guess that's about the limit.

mr_ro_co wrote:
Also, I seem to recall an acoustically transparent screen won't work with a blend? Is that right?

Hmmm.... Not sure about that one, or why that would be. I'll PM Athanasios... As a blend guy, I'm sure he can chime in on this.

EDIT - Cliffy's side-by-side stack is AT. Hmmm...

SC


That's what I thought regarding the gain, but someone, maybe Tim, was telling me the AT stuff wouldn't work, 'cause it interferes with the blend area for some reason.

Steve

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ecrabb
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PostLink    Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2012 4:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Very possible, I guess. Interesting. Maybe something to do with some non-specular, angular reflection on the AT screen's fabric weave. Might depend on the type of AT screen, though... They have some extremely fine weaves (for 4k+) now that didn't even exist a few years ago.

Check out the Screen Excellence Enlightor 4k that Seymour imports:
http://www.screenexcellence.com/products/projection-surfaces/enlightor-4k.html

That's right around 1.0 gain, and is so fine, I would think it would behave like (and is?) a diffusion surface.

I PM'd Athanasios to get in here. Maybe Tim or Bob can stop by, too. I'm very curious what you can/can't do with a blend.

SC
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mr_ro_co




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PostLink    Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2012 4:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ecrabb wrote:
Very possible, I guess. Interesting. Maybe something to do with some non-specular, angular reflection on the AT screen's fabric weave. Might depend on the type of AT screen, though... They have some extremely fine weaves (for 4k+) now that didn't even exist a few years ago.

Check out the Screen Excellence Enlightor 4k that Seymour imports:
http://www.screenexcellence.com/products/projection-surfaces/enlightor-4k.html

That's right around 1.0 gain, and is so fine, I would think it would behave like (and is?) a diffusion surface.

I PM'd Athanasios to get in here. Maybe Tim or Bob can stop by, too. I'm very curious what you can/can't do with a blend.

SC


I would LOVE to do an AT screen if it will work with a blend! Very interested to hear what Athanasios has so say and hopefully the others will chime in at some point.

Steve

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ecrabb
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PostLink    Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2012 5:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Steve, I found an old thread on Bob's (Boilermaker) setup and a quote on his screen:

http://www.curtpalme.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=246795#246795

Boilermaker wrote:
7 - A pair of XG-110LC's with 6 new tubes. I am runniing contrast at 50 on these and there is plenty of light!

8 - My screen is 10-1/2 ft. wide, 2.35AR. It is nothing but Behr Ultra White paint on a perfectly smoothed wall using 1X4's wrapped with Duvatyne as a border. I saved some money using the paint but felt that since I wanted a gain of no more than 1.0, is was a good choice.

Athanasios and I have struggled with getting a perfectly invisible blend and since I am not an expert at calibration, the VideoEq's were the answer. While it was quite time consuming, it is possible to get a near perfect grayscale, gamma and CIE setup. I chose to use a gamma of 2.35, and am very pleased with the results. I borrowed a DIY sensor based on the HCFR design and found it vastly superior to the i-one cheap probe especially at the low end. I'm sure the expensive sensors would be even better, but they are out of my price range.


So, if Bob was shooting for ~1.0 gain, I'm assuming it's eliminate any hot-spotting or color shift. Given that, it sure seems like the Enlightor 4k material could work without any issues, but I'll stop for now and wait for the blend guys to show up.

SC
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Nashou66




Joined: 12 Jan 2007
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PostLink    Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2012 5:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Steve, I think any where between .8-1.2 gain should be fine. The main issue with blending is the CMS and matching the
contrast and Greyscale and most importantly the gamma on the edge of the tube face that is being blended. This is where
i know I need to work on in my own blend and is why I am switching to LC from AC. The hallo effect from AC kills the
blend zone.

There is a blender I am curious about the Anyplace 200

http://www.flexiblepicturesystems.com/images/FPS_IA-200_datasheet-1.pdf

Spectracal sells them and they are controllable via CalMan which leads me to think they have a CMS of some sort.

I sent them an Email but have not heard back. But they are expensive compared to the TV-Ones. actually 2 tv-ones and 2 radiance's would be cheaper.

But the seymore electric screen looks very useable.

Athanasios

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mr_ro_co




Joined: 08 May 2006
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Location: Santa Fe NM


PostLink    Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2012 5:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ecrabb wrote:
Steve, I found an old thread on Bob's (Boilermaker) setup and a quote on his screen:

http://www.curtpalme.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=246795#246795

Boilermaker wrote:
7 - A pair of XG-110LC's with 6 new tubes. I am runniing contrast at 50 on these and there is plenty of light!

8 - My screen is 10-1/2 ft. wide, 2.35AR. It is nothing but Behr Ultra White paint on a perfectly smoothed wall using 1X4's wrapped with Duvatyne as a border. I saved some money using the paint but felt that since I wanted a gain of no more than 1.0, is was a good choice.

Athanasios and I have struggled with getting a perfectly invisible blend and since I am not an expert at calibration, the VideoEq's were the answer. While it was quite time consuming, it is possible to get a near perfect grayscale, gamma and CIE setup. I chose to use a gamma of 2.35, and am very pleased with the results. I borrowed a DIY sensor based on the HCFR design and found it vastly superior to the i-one cheap probe especially at the low end. I'm sure the expensive sensors would be even better, but they are out of my price range.


So, if Bob was shooting for ~1.0 gain, I'm assuming it's eliminate any hot-spotting or color shift. Given that, it sure seems like the Enlightor 4k material could work without any issues, but I'll stop for now and wait for the blend guys to show up.

SC


Very interesting - I do recall reading this as well. Frankly I prefer the neutrality of 1.0 and there will be no shortage of light with a 9" blend.

Steve

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mr_ro_co




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PostLink    Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2012 8:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nashou66 wrote:
Steve, I think any where between .8-1.2 gain should be fine. The main issue with blending is the CMS and matching the
contrast and Greyscale and most importantly the gamma on the edge of the tube face that is being blended. This is where
i know I need to work on in my own blend and is why I am switching to LC from AC. The hallo effect from AC kills the
blend zone.

There is a blender I am curious about the Anyplace 200

http://www.flexiblepicturesystems.com/images/FPS_IA-200_datasheet-1.pdf

Spectracal sells them and they are controllable via CalMan which leads me to think they have a CMS of some sort.

I sent them an Email but have not heard back. But they are expensive compared to the TV-Ones. actually 2 tv-ones and 2 radiance's would be cheaper.

But the seymore electric screen looks very useable.

Athanasios



I currently have one Radiance Mini and recall being told I needed one for each pj in a blend. Does the Radiance have zone based CMS that can be independently controlled in the blend region?

Good intel on some of the processor options!

Steve brought my attention to the Seymour product. Do you think the Seymour Enlightor 4K (1.0, AT screen) would be good for a blend? It's also ISF certified.

http://www.seymourscreenexcellence.com/materials.asp

Steve

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Nashou66




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PostLink    Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2012 9:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes you'll need a second Radiance and then the Blend unit/units .

No they do not have a zone based CMS but that would be very cool if they did.

Maybe we can suggest it?I have been trying to get them to add a blend unit to their VP line up
but there are not enough people asking for this. I think They could market this commercially
and tap into an already existing market. A zone CMS that could be customized to the Pixel area of
choice would be awesome. For CRT id ask for a 3 zone Custom area capability. Top left edge/right edge, middle left edge/right edge
and bottom left edge/right edge. I think this would be a great tool for edge blending. I'm still going to also bug TV-one to add CMS to their units or new units.

That Screen would be perfect. I wish I would have gone AT now that I am Re-doing my set up.

Athanasios

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