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Lumagen XS+ Laserdisc calibration problems. HELP!!!
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stridsvognen
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PostLink    Posted: Tue May 29, 2012 7:37 pm    Post subject: Lumagen XS+ Laserdisc calibration problems. HELP!!! Reply with quote


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I was trying to calibrate my laserdisc with my new Radiance Xs, and quite fast i notice i'm missing a lot of light on the colors. Best result is around -30-40%
There is no problems when using the internal test patterns in the Lumagen, but when using the color test from my Video essentials LD its very dark.

So i remembered that i have seen some issues playing Video Essentials where the light output suddenly changes in the middle of a scene. I tested and its only happening where the train is passing the bridge.. Look pic. And it happens 2 out of 3 times. Pop and the image is nice and bright, and next scene its back to boring dark.

I tested with my DVDO VP 50 again, never seen that happen with that one, and didn't. And without doing anything special my image is much brighter, with DVDO scaler.

I cant find any settings that have the same effect, and cant find any settings changing the way the train scene gets brighter.

All ideas are welcome, like it looks now i cant calibrate LD to a decent light output on the CIE colors.

Looks like some software bug in the Lumagen, but its also possible i'm missing something somewhere.
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kal
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PostLink    Posted: Tue May 29, 2012 8:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Strange. I've never seen or heard of something like that before. I'd drop Lumagen a line at support@lumagen.com or at lumagen@curtpalme.com. They don't actively monitor this forum.

Someone else who many have experienced something similar may chime in as well, but you may as well ask Lumagen directly.

Kal

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stridsvognen
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PostLink    Posted: Tue May 29, 2012 9:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Kal. Ill just wait a few days and see if anyone have experienced the same, and can tell me that its just some setting i did wrong.. Wink

Before i start asking Lumagen for support..

Maybe someone know if there is any special effects to the train on the bridge scene that can trigger some problems.

I wonder if it could be some change in deinterlacing mode or whatever. Rolling Eyes
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Nashou66



Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16167
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PostLink    Posted: Tue May 29, 2012 10:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Are you using the LD version of video essentials?

Is it only on LD or on all other sources?

Which output are you using from the LD player?

If S -Video try composite as the luamgen might have a better Comb filter.

Aslo check your color space on the lumagen input for theLD. Never hooked mine up so not even shire if there is one to choose, probably not .

nashou

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CIR Engineering



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PostLink    Posted: Tue May 29, 2012 10:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Do you have "Genlock" on or off for the LD input? Make sure that is is OFF.

Strange problem.

craigr

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kal
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PostLink    Posted: Wed May 30, 2012 12:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

stridsvognen wrote:
Thanks Kal. Ill just wait a few days and see if anyone have experienced the same, and can tell me that its just some setting i did wrong.. Wink

Before i start asking Lumagen for support..

Yup. Makes sense. It may take a few extra days too as they dig their LD player out of the archives to test it. Wink (I haven't used one in years!).

Quote:
Maybe someone know if there is any special effects to the train on the bridge scene that can trigger some problems.

That's a good question. I wouldn't think so, but you never know. I remember there was one video processor about 10-12 years ago that used to have issues with bright flashes. It would knock out the VP for a second or so due to overloading. Very strange/odd problem.

Kal

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stridsvognen
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PostLink    Posted: Wed May 30, 2012 6:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks to all for trying to help.

ill try answer all.

First.

Source MSB Gold Laserdisc player composite out, have tested both composite outputs, and i have my DVDO VP50 setup in parallel to the 2nd input on my Moome card.

Video Essentials on laserdisc NTSC I have not tested with other analog inputs yet, i have Video Essentials NTSC on DVD to, ill try that with composite and component soon.

Color space is set to 422 in and out, and 601 in and out of lumagen.

Genlock is off.

Other thing i forgot to mention, sometimes i need to select the input again on the lumagen after stop start or skip on the laserdisc player. Look like it need to relock to the signal. Sometimes i get a gray screen with snow for around 2-4sec before it lock.

When dropping out its just black screen, and it never happens when playing.

My parallel setup on same player and same moome card do not have any problems at all.

I have the Brightness set to -12 on my lumagen to get the same black level as my DVDO VP50 set to 0.

First thing ill try when i get time is to put a test DVD and see if i get same white level and colors with and without lumagen, when everything set to 0. I have some idea thats not the case.

i'm not sure of anything right now, but ill test and let you all know what i see.
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Nashou66



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PostLink    Posted: Wed May 30, 2012 11:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Does the lumagen have the latest firmware?

Nashou

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stridsvognen
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PostLink    Posted: Wed May 30, 2012 12:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nashou66 wrote:
Does the lumagen have the latest firmware?

Nashou


No idea.. its a brand new lumagen.
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Nashou66



Joined: 12 Jan 2007
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Location: West Seneca NY


PostLink    Posted: Wed May 30, 2012 12:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stridsvognen wrote:
Nashou66 wrote:
Does the lumagen have the latest firmware?

Nashou


No idea.. its a brand new lumagen.


check to see what yours is. And here is the software update pages list.

http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=updates

Athanasios

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CIR Engineering



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PostLink    Posted: Wed May 30, 2012 12:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Check that you have the latest FW.

Assuming you do, than call Lumagen. I think you need to speak with them regarding the LD issue. I know as much about Lumagen as anyone you are going to run into and I think you need to talk to them directly about this one.

All the other things you mentioned are setup issues that you can address by learning, reading, and experimenting.

Kind regards,

craigr

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Sencore CR7000 CRT Tube Analyzer / Rejuvenater
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Authorized Dealer for Lumagen & just about everything else Wink
www.CIR-Engineering.com - craigr@cir-engineering.com
Phone: 865-405-6892
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stridsvognen
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PostLink    Posted: Wed May 30, 2012 1:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CIR Engineering wrote:
Check that you have the latest FW.

Assuming you do, than call Lumagen. I think you need to speak with them regarding the LD issue. I know as much about Lumagen as anyone you are going to run into and I think you need to talk to them directly about this one.

All the other things you mentioned are setup issues that you can address by learning, reading, and experimenting.

Kind regards,

craigr


Thanks.

ill pull out a few more laserdisc players, and see if its the same issue, and test with NTSC material from a DVD player to, so i'm prepared to talk to lumagen.

I think i'm starting to know my way around the lumagen, but will take a little longer before it feels like a nice pair of old shoes.. Wink

I like to be well prepared when i ask for support.

Will take a little longer than normal, i just started rebuilding my house. Rolling Eyes
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CIR Engineering



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Posts: 3870
Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany


PostLink    Posted: Wed May 30, 2012 11:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There may be a very simple four digit comand to enter to recalibrate the analog input on the processor while displaying a certain test pattern. I had to recalibrate analong on the Vision line of processors all the time. I am not sure about the Radiance though because 99% of what I do with Radiance processors is HDMI based and the rest is component. I think I have connected two total LD players in all of the Radiance installs I have done combined so... I can't think of any other installs where i used the composite or s-video at all.

craigr

_________________
JETI Specbos 1211 Spectroradiometer
Photo Research PR-650 Spectroradiometer
Klein K10-A Laboratory Grade Colorimeter
Murideo Fresco SIX-G HDMI 2.x Multimedia Generator
Murideo Fresco SIX-A HDMI 2.x Analyzer
*NEW Light Illusion LightSpace XPT Pro Version 10.x Color Calibration Software
ChromaPure3 Pro Color Calibration Software
Sencore CR7000 CRT Tube Analyzer / Rejuvenater
Audyssey MultEQ Pro Audio Calibration System
Authorized Dealer for Lumagen & just about everything else Wink
www.CIR-Engineering.com - craigr@cir-engineering.com
Phone: 865-405-6892
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stridsvognen
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PostLink    Posted: Thu May 31, 2012 2:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CIR Engineering wrote:
There may be a very simple four digit comand to enter to recalibrate the analog input on the processor while displaying a certain test pattern. I had to recalibrate analong on the Vision line of processors all the time. I am not sure about the Radiance though because 99% of what I do with Radiance processors is HDMI based and the rest is component. I think I have connected two total LD players in all of the Radiance installs I have done combined so... I can't think of any other installs where i used the composite or s-video at all.

craigr


Interesting.

I can easily understand why no one use laserdisc anymore, but i just cant let go of the sound on laserdisc, it easily beats up any DTS HD or whatever on Blu Ray, and its no matter if its just 2 channel analog, DD or DTS on laserdisc.

And you cant deny that it is a challenge to make laserdisc look ok on a 110" screen. lol Finding the right player and scaler and get it all calibrated so you don't run out of the room as soon as the movie gets started.
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ecrabb
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PostLink    Posted: Thu May 31, 2012 3:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stridsvognen wrote:
I can easily understand why no one use laserdisc anymore, but i just cant let go of the sound on laserdisc, it easily beats up any DTS HD or whatever on Blu Ray, and its no matter if its just 2 channel analog, DD or DTS on laserdisc.

Wow, I couldn't disagree more. When it was LD vs. DVD, people had a good point, and there was some truth to at, as the AC-3 tracks had much more bandwidth on LD... But... What you're saying really makes no sense. Are you just really saying you just prefer the sound of older recordings better than the sound of new recordings?

Most Blu-ray audio is truly excellent, and from my experience, at this point, unless there's something wrong with a specific title, BD audio smokes anything on LD. For the first time, we have an audio carrier that's close (or even identical) to the audio used in the mastering process!

Have you compared apples to apples, i.e. A-B'd Raiders of the Lost Ark or Full Metal Jacket or Blade Runner on LD vs. Raiders of the Lost Ark or Full Metal Jacket or Blade Runner on BD?

SC
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stridsvognen
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PostLink    Posted: Thu May 31, 2012 3:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ecrabb wrote:
stridsvognen wrote:
I can easily understand why no one use laserdisc anymore, but i just cant let go of the sound on laserdisc, it easily beats up any DTS HD or whatever on Blu Ray, and its no matter if its just 2 channel analog, DD or DTS on laserdisc.

Wow, I couldn't disagree more. When it was LD vs. DVD, people had a good point, and there was some truth to at, as the AC-3 tracks had much more bandwidth on LD... But... What you're saying really makes no sense. Are you just really saying you just prefer the sound of older recordings better than the sound of new recordings?

Most Blu-ray audio is truly excellent, and from my experience, at this point, unless there's something wrong with a specific title, BD audio smokes anything on LD. For the first time, we have an audio carrier that's close (or even identical) to the audio used in the mastering process!

Have you compared apples to apples, i.e. A-B'd Raiders of the Lost Ark or Full Metal Jacket or Blade Runner on LD vs. Raiders of the Lost Ark or Full Metal Jacket or Blade Runner on BD?

SC


I know that not many agree, but it all depends what you are listening for.
If you like the compression and sensation of hearing every mosquito fart up wind, blu ray is your thing for sound track.

But LD tracks more often give me the sensation of realistic dynamic and that makes the weak levels like the mosquito stay down where it belong.

Blue ray track i hear volume regulated dynamics, like action more output, and so on. On LD sometimes you blow out of your HT, and other times you cant hear whats going on.. thats dynamics, but also in a tone you hear dynamic range.

So when you tell me you prefer Blue ray tracks, i think you also prefer SACD over any real intimate live concert.

I just prefer live music, or vinyl. And i don't mean live music with crappy pro gear big speakers on a stadium.

In picture i like to compare to how real life looks, instead of getting blown away over some over sharp over focused digital image. (Compression)

First try find some surround gear that can reproduce a percussion or any metal instrument with realistic dynamics transient and fading out, and then go find a blu ray disc with no compression.

But for normal surround gear filled up with opamps and SMPS i agree its better to stick with Blu Ray sound Wink

So yes i prefer old recordings thats not messed up like they do today, to fit most peoples wireless surround sound bar under the tv

But if you ever get around your welcome to look in and hear how i get around the sound tracks.
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Nashou66



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PostLink    Posted: Thu May 31, 2012 3:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Steve it comes down to Digital vs analog. Some just get listening fatigue with digital. I am one of them. I can listen to hours and hours of analog music or LD, but when i listen to CD's or MPS etc i can only take about an hour and my head and ears hurt. I have no idea why but thats just how it is. I take it Kurt is the same as me.

Athanasios

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ecrabb
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PostLink    Posted: Thu May 31, 2012 4:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I know what you're saying, Athanasios... And with CD (and especially MP3) vs. vinyl, I think there's a point of discussion. However, again... It isn't that it's "digital" that you don't like. It's how it was recorded, mastered, and played back.

If I used just a decent A/D converter and played your favorite vinyl on your favorite turntable into a PCM file, then burned that file to a CD, then A-B'ed it for you, I'd bet you a thousand bucks (seriously) you wouldn't be able to tell the difference.

By the same token, AC-3 or DTS captured from an LD, then put back on a BD would sound EXACTLY the same. If it didn't, then there would be something wrong.

Again, if you want to talk about mastering new versus mastering then (the loudness war), we'll be in full agreement. If not, the whole analog preference thing is a preference for certain inaccuracies (i.e. distortions) in the analog. There's nothing wrong with that, but that doesn't mean there's something wrong with digital.

SC
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ecrabb
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PostLink    Posted: Thu May 31, 2012 4:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh, and audio placebo is a very real, well-known effect. There's no reason not to assume it isn't in full force in our preferences for one carrier over another.

SC
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stridsvognen
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PostLink    Posted: Thu May 31, 2012 5:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ohh ill love to do a blind test, Vinyl VS PCM like you mention, i don't even know a dac that can make what my TT setup can.

Another thing is that if possible there is more sh*tty analog gear than digital gear, so its not just go analog and your saved.

and regarding placebo, then i'm not old enough to even know what LD was when it was actual, i collected around 500 movies the last 2 years. 4 years ago i had never played a vinyl record.

So i have had plenty of wake up calls regarding sound. And looking forward it looks sad.. more mastering for laptop speakers and wireless surround sound bars.

We/ i'm a dying race, no one see a marked for it.

I think we are lucky that the trend is bigger tv, so they don't need to compress the image so much to point out the details.
I love the image of many Blu Ray movies, but i could dream about higher framerate than 24hz, and full color resolution.
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