I'm new to CRT and I really appreciate the things I've learned on this forum, and the support I've already received!
I've been using a DVDO Iscan HD to convert a component signal to RGBHV for the pj. I then picked up an RTC2200 to add gamma boost. I tried removing the Iscan and using just the RTC2200, but I lost a few inches on the right side of the screen. When I put the Iscan back in the loop, as long as the signal is treated, the image is all there. If the signal is not treated, but goes through the passthru, I still get a few inches clipped on the right. I started to think that maybe my lines are too long or of poor quality (my VGA to 5-bnc break-out is 20 feet long, and the cables are really spindly). I then picked up a Moome Ext-HD box. Since it has only bnc connectors, I needed to replace the spindly breakouts. I took some RG6 cable I had, made 17 foot lengths with a 10 foot high speed HDMI cable to the Ext-HD. The image is still clipping. I tried all possible combinations with the Iscan, RTC2200 and Ext-HD, and the only way the image is not clipped is when the Iscan is converting a signal. I tried a 6' HDMI run, a 3' HDMI run; fruitless. If I put on a test image from the pj, it fills the screen, but as soon as I give the signal from the Blu-ray, minus 3.75 inches. What gives?
Joined: 08 Mar 2006 Posts: 5080 Location: Colorado
Link Posted: Wed May 30, 2012 3:21 pm Post subject:
this is not a cable issue, it's a video timing issue and affects all cRT's. The back porches on typical BD video are too short, you can Wiki what that is if your interested.
The ONLY way to fix it is with a VP, which is why it doesn't clip the image with the I-scan . Someone must have set it to increase porch times which is a good thing.
find a way to incorporate it into the video chain _________________ MARQUEE HD MODS: Bring your Marquee CRT projector (or clone) back up to spec and offer even greater performance!
Joined: 03 Dec 2011 Posts: 60 Location: Boucherville, Qc
Link Posted: Thu May 31, 2012 4:58 pm Post subject:
Thanks for the reply. I'm disappointed to hear that since the Iscan HD will not process an HD signal. That means that I'll have to set the output from the Blu-ray player to 480p so that the Iscan will convert it, which means downgrading a Blu-ray image to then upconvert it again. I don't really have budget to get another VP either. The advantage, I thought, to having the Moome box was that the Blu-ray player upconverts SD material via the hdmi port, but not from the component output.
Is there a more common term used on this forum to describe what I've called "image clipping"? I am a little bewildered that this is a problem with all crt pj's since I don't recall reading anything about it in the setup guides or anything else. Are there certain resolutions that are less affected than others?
Besides losing some of the image on the right side, there is also a 6" vertical band that appears slightly lighter in very dark images. Could this have something to do with the porches also?
Joined: 09 Nov 2008 Posts: 1968 Location: QLD, Australia
Link Posted: Fri Jun 01, 2012 8:05 am Post subject:
Why not connect the Bluray player to the MOOME box and be done with? If its not working on an NEC, you simply need to set the projector up properly.
Use the image shift and center the image, then adjust the amplitude to fit the screen. Its not hard to do. This is why youre getting differing brightnesses id say.
I have 2 NECs here, both of which work perfectly fine with both my Bluray players set up that way, and i know of 5 more i can go and test on if need be...
There is no good reason why your NEC will not display a perfect picture with that Bluray player, set it to either 1920x1080i, or even 1280x720p if you want to, and it will be capable of working perfectly.
P.S. Being a RUNCO, it may even have component input via the BNC plugs. Mine does.
Joined: 03 Dec 2011 Posts: 60 Location: Boucherville, Qc
Link Posted: Fri Jun 01, 2012 12:24 pm Post subject:
CasetheCorvetteman wrote:
Why not connect the Bluray player to the MOOME box and be done with? If its not working on an NEC, you simply need to set the projector up properly.
Use the image shift and center the image, then adjust the amplitude to fit the screen. Its not hard to do. This is why youre getting differing brightnesses id say.
I have 2 NECs here, both of which work perfectly fine with both my Bluray players set up that way, and i know of 5 more i can go and test on if need be...
There is no good reason why your NEC will not display a perfect picture with that Bluray player, set it to either 1920x1080i, or even 1280x720p if you want to, and it will be capable of working perfectly.
P.S. Being a RUNCO, it may even have component input via the BNC plugs. Mine does.
Even with the MOOME box, I'm losing about 4 inches of the image on the right side. Is there a setup I can do to recover that part of the image, or are you suggesting that I just forget the 4 inches and stretch the image to fill the screen?
I'm running 720p right now; I told myself I would setup 1080i once I was happy with the 720p setup. Thing is, I've spent so many hours on it already and I'm not that happy with it; I'm not doing the machine justice. The image is soft, it's not too impressive. I'd love to see another crt setup properly.
What about this component input via the BNC plugs? Is there something I need to do on the pj? or do I just feed the component signal? I think I tried that before and only got a green image.
Joined: 08 Mar 2006 Posts: 5080 Location: Colorado
Link Posted: Fri Jun 01, 2012 5:52 pm Post subject:
do a search for porch sizes and video timings, there's pages of talk concerning it. My marquee takes BD direct through moome card and I lose about 2 inches per side. I just center the clipped image, no big deal. When you think about it losing 4 inches on a 92" wide screen isn't much. I mean there's nothing happening there which changes how you see the movie.
Joined: 09 Nov 2008 Posts: 1968 Location: QLD, Australia
Link Posted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 1:47 am Post subject:
Draganm, this is an NEC, we dont usually have those issues of losing image unless its 1080p. Ive NEVER had it. Not ever. Numerous sources and not once. Could ALWAYS correct it with image shift, either internal or external.
Also, on some RUNCO NECs, you CAN feed component into the RGB-HV input. I know this, cause i do it every time i use my Nintendo Wii on my RUNCO DTV 991. It even says "COMPONENT" on the screen, and its connected to the R, G, and B plugs, with nothing in the H and V.
Im not saying his WILL do it, but some certainly CAN do it, so i dont think its a really good idea to come along and say "you cant do that" because in some cases "yes you can". If the FAQs say that, then the FAQs need to be amended to say that on some projectors it DOES work.
Untuned, forget 720p for now, and start straight away on 1920x1080i. There is no good reason you should lose image with that projector unless it has some sort of internal scaler and it is set wrong. The MOOME box has some sort of image centering on it, and if you adjust that you should see the picture's cut off portion move. If it doesnt, you might want to consider removal of the MOOME box and replace it with a HD Fury 3. Dont see why you should have to do that though, id expect the MOOME box to have everything the Fury 3 has.
If you look at where you do a new signal entry, it will ask you to select from inputs for this entry, on my RUNCO it says VIDEO, RGB, COMPONENT, S-VIDEO, and if yours is missing component, then it might not do it. You cant just plug in component and run it on the same source as you were using RGB-HV on, cause then it WILL come up green.
You should probably start by removing all the old entries, then make a new one for 1920x1080i, make sure your rasters are all centered on the tubes, make sure the image is centered in the raster, and set it all up from full on zero.
I just dont see why you would experience this issue on an NEC when i never ever have with loads of sources and not been able to correct it.
Joined: 05 Jun 2010 Posts: 934 Location: Budapest, Hungary
Link Posted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 6:33 am Post subject:
Runco did very few REAL extension to "their" projectors, Untuned has a PG xtra which never accepted component input, but some factory XG (mostly 852) do accept, this is why it's possible on your XG , Case.
I feed my NEC from a PC, and I also get cropped image with stock 1080i/p settings, the best way to adjust those porches as Dragan said.
Own experience: too small back porches can cause image banding as well. _________________ NEC 6PG xtra
Joined: 09 Nov 2008 Posts: 1968 Location: QLD, Australia
Link Posted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 8:10 am Post subject:
Ive never had that GJaky, and ive fed both my NECs ( PG and an XG ) with a load of sources including 4 different PCs, 2 different digital TV boxes, 2 Bluray players, all via HDMI through both the HD Fury 3 and the internal MOOME and have also compared the PCs and one digital TV box using RGB-HV ( all 1080i, 1080p, or 720p, but every one of them did 1080i ). Could always correct it with image shift every time!! No cut off parts. I have a CRT monitor here to compare the images, so i can tell if any is gone, and its just never occured.
Wonder if it is something to do with it being a "6" and not a "9" is why you both have seen this and i have not? Wouldnt have thought that would do it.
My RUNCO is an XG 75. I was under the impression it was only the XG 85 and the RUNCOs that had the component. Im not sure what they do to the 6 XTRA, but i thought they put a scaler of sorts in that one.
Joined: 03 Dec 2011 Posts: 60 Location: Boucherville, Qc
Link Posted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 4:37 pm Post subject:
Thanks for all your input!
My pj is the Runco 933. As far as I can tell, I only have the RGBHV input on the pj, although it came with an external line doubler that had the video, s-video, and component inputs with the RGBHV output. (See http://www.curtpalme.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30076). I tried a new signal input, and I did not have any options as Case mentions, only the name and whether I choose from Default, Temporary, or another input.
I tried the image shift as Case suggested, and I seem to have recovered the missing inches! The image width (all there) is 76"; I wanted 80" to at least fill the screen, but my placement for screen and pj were limited. The whole setup process was very laborious and I would nearly say painful, especially given the results. I read a post this week (http://www.curtpalme.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31089&highlight=canon) and I'm going to try that: get a digital pj to project the grid, and line up on that. I know my current geometry is not perfect, never mind the convergence of red and blue on green. I'm still concerned about astig setup. I never could figure it out and I was going buggy staring at those dots, so I did the best I could and went ahead with the rest.
Joined: 09 Nov 2008 Posts: 1968 Location: QLD, Australia
Link Posted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 2:38 am Post subject:
Aha!! I was sure RUNCO would have a way to get component into this thing. I didnt know it was an external line doubler, but ive never looked that hard into it.
If you cant get the image to fill the screen, you can increase the amplitude, as long as the image doesnt get too close to the tube edges ( unless youve allready got a small wear pattern from a previous owner ) Then run the blanking right to the edge of the image and youre safe.
Make sure all 3 images are in the center of their tube faces, that is CRITICAL for good even focus.
NECs are very easy to set up when you know what all the adjustments do, they are probably the BEST in terms of just how perfect you can get the convergence. The point convergence on an NEC is second to none, and the stability on a well set up NEC is exceptional, as is the picture quality.
I was quite confident that the image shift would correct your problem. When i say ive never seen this on an NEC, i have seen it, but ALWAYS been able to correct it easily, and ive never once d**ked around with porch settings.
I also have to wonder if you tried adjusting your blanking to see if that was covering it up... I shouldve mensioned that earlier, but i didnt think of it. You really need to zero every setting ( 100 in the case of blanking ) and start from the start to get a base for your whole setup, then when it is as perfect as you can get it, save that as your default, and base all new signal inputs from that.
Joined: 08 Mar 2006 Posts: 5080 Location: Colorado
Link Posted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 5:12 pm Post subject:
CasetheCorvetteman wrote:
I was quite confident that the image shift would correct your problem. When i say ive never seen this on an NEC, i have seen it, but ALWAYS been able to correct it easily, and ive never once d**ked around with porch settings.
that's because you can't run 1080P. Even if yuo could, there's no way you could "verify" the image is all there on a little LCD screen, we're talking 4 inches clipped off a 92" wide projection. What does that come out to on an LCD screen, 1/16th of an inch?
On the Runco 980 I recently set-up I remember a little clipping on both sides wth 720P from a PS3. You can center it with image shift but your getting 95%, not 100. Like I said, It's not a big deal and not something I would not buy a VP to fix.
The VP is more important at 1080P to increase porches and reduce the load on the horizontal deflection amplifier.
Joined: 09 Nov 2008 Posts: 1968 Location: QLD, Australia
Link Posted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 7:45 am Post subject:
draganm wrote:
that's because you can't run 1080P. Even if yuo could, there's no way you could "verify" the image is all there on a little LCD screen
Youre all full of "cant's" arent you.... Where do you get this rubbish from??? Youre incorrect on both counts... 9PG CAN do 1920x1080p, RUNCO DTV 991 CAN do 1920x1080p... So yes, i CAN do 1080p thanks... Why you ever thought i couldnt is beyond me, but you quoted me and followed with that line, so i guess i have to ask...
Now, where does the little LCD screen come into it?? Im using a CRT computer monitor... And YEP, it goes to 1920x1440p so yes i CAN verify if the image is all there or not...
draganm wrote:
On the Runco 980 I recently set-up I remember a little clipping on both sides wth 720P from a PS3. You can center it with image shift but your getting 95%, not 100.
I remember the thread, and i remember you complaining about the convergence system ( which i maintain is the BEST on any projector ) so with abit more experience, and a proper source device ( not a PS3 ) you couldve got that to display properly with 100%. Was that an ULTRA or a plain 980?
draganm wrote:
It's not a big deal and not something I would not buy a VP to fix.
You can fix it without that.
draganm wrote:
Untunesd, like Case said, on the PG's it's super important to wipe all the previous memory's and start fresh. For some reason these machine have a considerable amount of memory cross-talk between channels. At least that's the impression I got.
I just dont reckon its a good idea to have entries not pertaining to that particular setup, i dont think there could be an issue with cross talk.
Its also not a good idea to take an exsisting entry and adjust it to suit a new installation, you should set all settings to their center points, with the exception of blanking which when the time comes should be wound out to 100 when you know the raster is not too close or over the tube face edges.
If you build from an existing entry, you will likely end up with settings correcting other settings, and thats not good for anything.
Start from zero, do PHASE first, then follow the logical procedure. When its perfect, save that as default, then on most new entries, you start from the default, adjust the PHASE, then make what ever minor changes you need to, and i like to start with AMPLITUDE. ( cause it can affect almost all other settings )
draganm wrote:
I'm not an NEC expert by any means
Then why are you telling people what they CANT do with their NECs? Its not good. People are going to start to think their NEC projector is no better than a Marquee!!
Joined: 05 Jun 2010 Posts: 934 Location: Budapest, Hungary
Link Posted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 8:19 am Post subject:
Quote:
Its also not a good idea to take an exsisting entry and adjust it to suit a new installation, you should set all settings to their center points, with the exception of blanking which when the time comes should be wound out to 100 when you know the raster is not too close or over the tube face edges.
I keep a preset with all 'zeroed' settings, so when I want to start from scratch then just copy the convergence data from that preset, very time efficient. _________________ NEC 6PG xtra
Joined: 09 Nov 2008 Posts: 1968 Location: QLD, Australia
Link Posted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 9:07 am Post subject:
Yeah that is something i did for a while, but its so quick to zero the settings on an NEC when you know the shortcut key combo. Still there is no harm i can see in doing that, and it is quicker and easier, even if only by a tiny bit!!
Joined: 05 Jun 2010 Posts: 934 Location: Budapest, Hungary
Link Posted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 9:20 am Post subject:
Well I don't have the remote, instead I use the PC control software, and with that it is very painful to zero all settings _________________ NEC 6PG xtra
Joined: 08 Mar 2006 Posts: 5080 Location: Colorado
Link Posted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 4:35 pm Post subject:
CasetheCorvetteman wrote:
draganm wrote:
I'm not an NEC expert by any means
Then why are you telling people what they CANT do with their NECs? Its not good. People are going to start to think their NEC projector is no better than a Marquee!!
you own an XG75 and a PG and you think you know everything about CRT's. What a f*cking joke. there are dozens of posts from people who have run the top of the line NEC, the XG135LC, at 1080P and have image problems like image fold-over, a well known issue with NEC';s at higher resolutions. But hey, you know better, your NEC's can do everything under the sun
tomgilmartin wrote:
Hi guys,
Last night I hooked up my PS3 to my XG 135LC. Looked good, did a quick setup/convergence for 1080P and had a great looking picture. Then I started playing the Blu-Ray movie Alvin and the Chipmunks for the kids. I started to see wavy ghosts at left on the screen and when the screen was changing quickly (action scenes) there were faint wide horizontal lines appearing. On a static shot it looked great. I reduced the output of the PS3 to 720p and then it looked great all the time. Here's the chain of connections:
PS3 HDMI -> HDMI-DVI cable -> HDFury -> VGA in on Faroudja NRS ->
RGBHV out from Faroudja NRS -> 30ft 5BNC cable -> PJ BNC in
I'm not sure whether the projector or the Faroudja is the limit here.
Projector is supposed to be capable of 2500x2000 so 1080p should be EASY.
Any thoughts?
jarseneau wrote:
I'm pretty sure the key difference is that the guy running 1080p72 is using HTPC VGA as the source which allows you to adjust timing and porches of the signal. I also have been trying to do 1080p from PS3 or HD-DVD via HDMI and have seen the same things as Tom. They seem to be from the picture folding back on itself and you can minimize by shifting and using blanking but it doesn't seem to totally eliminate it.
MikeEby wrote:
I thinks your right Jerry back a long time ago, some people tried running 1080p on an XG with an Xbox 360 w/ VGA adapter and similar issues, this is why I use an HTPC w/Powerstrip I suppose an outboard scalar would work too if you can set porch settings. Perhaps the new Moome card will resolve this but I wouldn't bet on it, Moome card will not change the timings if that is what the issue is. When I ran straight 1080p 60 without a custom Powerstrip timing on my HTPC I had fold over issues too, this is what prompted the change to an ATI card and use of Powerstrip.
Running 1080p on an XG IMO takes a lot of tweaking, more than a lot of people are willing to do.
Mike
Joined: 03 Dec 2011 Posts: 60 Location: Boucherville, Qc
Link Posted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 4:41 pm Post subject:
CasetheCorvetteman wrote:
Yeah that is something i did for a while, but its so quick to zero the settings on an NEC when you know the shortcut key combo. Still there is no harm i can see in doing that, and it is quicker and easier, even if only by a tiny bit!!
Case, what's the shortcut key combo for resetting to zero all the settings?
Any hints on the astig setup? I read the advanced procedure that Curt wrote, and it was helpful, but I think I just need to see someone do it.
Also, I'll need to do some Scheimpflug adjustments, any hints on that for my machine? The pj is aimed about halfway between 12 degrees and 0.
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Where do you get this rubbish from??? Youre incorrect on both counts... 9PG 
