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Kal's basement Home Theatre/Bar/Brewery build 2.0
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kal
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Joined: 06 Mar 2006
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Location: Ottawa, Canada

TV/Projector: JVC DLA-RS56


PostLink    Posted: Mon May 14, 2012 6:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote


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I spent some time yesterday figuring out how the vent hood will have to be modified to have it vent out the top instead of the side. Now I just need to find a shop to do the work:




Christmas came early today! The order from Micromatic arrived:



I knew the boxes would be big, but I wasn't prepared for how big. The wide angle lens on the camera is deceptive. The larger box on the right is nearly 4 feet long.

The 8-tap tower was well packaged and protected (spray foam is used to conform to the shape of the product):







The product lines are all stainless, the glycol lines are copper. Both have barbed ends that have been welded on:



Trunk line (8 product lines + 2 glycol lines):



Glycol only trunk line:



Drip tray with integrated glass rinser:



Stout faucets:



Inside the black shaft you can see the little restrictor plate with tiny holes. The beer is pushed through this plate which knocks out carbonation creating that nice creamy thick head that goes well with certain beer styles, Guiness of course being the most well known:





It's starting to feel a lot more real now that things are starting to arrive...

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My basement/HT/bar/brewery build 2.0
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kal
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TV/Projector: JVC DLA-RS56


PostLink    Posted: Tue May 15, 2012 1:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The form was removed from the shower area:



The lower part will be used to slope the floor towards the drain.

Most of the ducts have now been re-routed.
Below is a view from the first row of home theater seats towards the location where the screen wall will eventually be:



The screen wall will be in front of the big fat duct that drops the lowest. All that ductwork will be in the room behind the screen. You can start to make out how the left/right bulkheads will be laid out. (The door and walls to the left will eventually be removed too, widening the whole area - it's kept up now to keep noise out).

Some of it looks like something out of a 70's sci-fi movie:



Re-routing the supply duct in and around the bathroom:





Not much to really look at now and wrap your head around but it's getting there.

Some water lines were moved today by the plumber so that the ductwork can be finished tomorrow.
The subfloor for the bathroom/sauna/DVD storage area will start tomorrow along with some initial framing work.

Kal

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kal
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PostLink    Posted: Fri May 18, 2012 2:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interior framing as has started and the small room/landing with a door at the bottom of the stairs has been removed:



The home theater screen wall is 12 feet wide to accommodate my existing 8 foot wide screen and speakers on the left and right.

In an ideal world I would have preferred a 14-15 foot wide screen wall to give the speakers more room to breath (and/or allow a possibly larger future constant image height 2:35:1 ratio screen) but there simply isn't room in this basement for something that wide with two rows of seating if I keep my current screen due to the centralized nature of the staircase in this house.

There's room *behind* the screen which could allow me to do an accoustically transparent screen in the future. With the speakers behind the screen, I'd be able to easily go to 10 feet wide. For now I'm trying to keep the number of major changes to a minimum as there's enough to worry about.

The wall between the bar & brewery with framing for the door has been done:



There's still framing work to do for the windows between the two.

The rest of the subfloor for the DVD storage area, bathroom, and sauna is now complete:



Plywood (the lighter coloured stuff) is used where tile will be installed, and OSB (oriented strand board - darker coloured stuff) is used where carpet/underpad will be installed. Tile glue doesn't tend to stick as well to OSB hence the difference though some installers say it doesn't really matter. My understanding is that it's really only important to use plywood for tile if there will be foot traffic.

So why not install plywood everywhere? OSB's cheaper than plywood, so it's used first if possible. That said, they ran out of OSB and installed plywood is a few spots (like this room that's going behind the screen). It's cheaper to use plywood if you have an extra sheet than to run someone off to the store to get one extra sheet of OSB when you're paying people by the hour. Wink

Labour cost for most parts of projects like this is everything. It's not uncommon to pay a plumber $500 to come and lay $50 worth of pipe, or to pay an electrician $300 to install $30 worth of outlets and wiring. This is completely normal. You're paying a skilled trade for their knowledge and experience, not for the value of the parts installed. The cost of materials spent is not relevant.

Going back to the bar, there's going to be a niche with shelves and a linear wine rack installed on the side wall. Some the framing was started today:



We actually ended up switching places with the niche and wine racks as it meant not having to move the waste water stack (the big black vertical pipe in the picture above). Moving it would have meant jackhammering the floor, redoing the plumbing, and then pouring new concrete. Sometimes simple changes can save a lot of money...

Here's an example of what is meant by linear wine racks - they're bottles that run from floor the ceiling and are positioned sideways:



We've got room for about 3-4 rows floor to ceiling. The ones we're interested in are VintageView Wine Racks. They're reasonably priced and a lot cheaper than typical wine racks. They're also more modern than your typical wood wine rack which is in line with the style of what we want to go with.

The name of the game so far with this renovation/build has been "tight". Getting things to fit right has often been a matter of inches.

You can only go so far with architectural drawings as well. At the end of the day you need to dig in and start building and see how it all fits.

Some examples of the tight fits:





Kal

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Last edited by kal on Fri May 18, 2012 12:47 pm; edited 1 time in total
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ecrabb
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PostLink    Posted: Fri May 18, 2012 3:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kal wrote:
Labour cost for most parts of projects like this is everything. It's not uncommon to pay a plumber $500 to come and lay $50 worth of pipe, or to pay an electrician $300 to install $30 worth of outlets and wiring. This is completely normal. You're paying a skilled trade for their knowledge and experience, not for the value of the parts installed. The cost of materials spent is not relevant.


This is very true. The exception to this rule is when you're dealing with expensive materials (usually finish materials or floor-coverings), where the material/labor costs invert. Designer light fixtures, granite countertops and slate, high-end marble or travertine, and even hardwood floor and carpet, all typically cost much more than the labor to install them.

Looking really good, Kal!!!

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kal
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Joined: 06 Mar 2006
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Location: Ottawa, Canada

TV/Projector: JVC DLA-RS56


PostLink    Posted: Fri May 18, 2012 12:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ecrabb wrote:
Designer light fixtures, granite countertops and slate, high-end marble or travertine, and even hardwood floor and carpet, all typically cost much more than the labor to install them.


<I have my hands over my ears because I don't want to be reminded how much some of the finishings will cost...>

LA LA LA LA! I CAN'T HEAR YOU! LA LA LA LA!

</I have my hands over my ears because I don't want to be reminded how much some of the finishings will cost...>

Kal

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VideoGrabber



Joined: 09 Apr 2006
Posts: 933
Location: Michigan


PostLink    Posted: Fri May 18, 2012 10:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kal wrote:

> The home theater screen wall is 12 feet wide to accommodate my existing 8 foot wide screen and speakers on the left and right. <

That's the minimum I'd feel comfortable with. You may want to consider some strategically-placed absorptive material on the side walls to eliminate/reduce early reflections that could diminish the sound stage.

> In an ideal world I would have preferred a 14-15 foot wide screen wall to give the speakers more room to breath (and/or allow a possibly larger future constant image height 2:35:1 ratio screen) but there simply isn't room in this basement for something that wide with two rows of seating if I keep my current screen due to the centralized nature of the staircase in this house. <

The centralized staircase does constrain you in your current configuration. I'm not suggesting anything, but looking at your 3d-diagram on the first page, it seems like simply flipping your seating around 180-degrees would give you that 15' on the exterior wall. The obvious downside would be the loss of the window there.

> There's room *behind* the screen which could allow me to do an acoustically transparent screen in the future. With the speakers behind the screen, I'd be able to easily go to 10 feet wide. <

That sounds good. Make your AT screen 10' wide and 5' high. Why the extra height, when you only need 50" for 2.40 scope? So you can do CIA, instead of CIH. That would let you do regular 1.78-type video HD at 103x58, which is the same 6000-sq.inch area as scope. ~42-sq.feet. Then mask for each AR. (Or not*.) Just something to think about. You could use the full 60" high by 80 wide for old 4x3 classics. And have the space to take advantage of multi-AR films, like the IMAX stuff, without losing out on either height or width in a CIH or CIW compromise. It would certainly give you a 'unique' theater, unlike most others.

> For now I'm trying to keep the number of major changes to a minimum as there's enough to worry about. <

LMAO. Gutting and rebuilding the whole basement, but you're drawing the line at replacing your screen. Very Happy Seriously though, I understand the sentiment, but do you really want to have to tear things up later, if you decide you'd like to do an AT screen? Doing it now would eliminate that ugliness. At the minimum, I'd suggest you might want to consider framing in an aperture now for a future AT screen, and fill it with a temporary wall filler. Then you could just pull it later when the urge struck you. Wink

[* I don't want to give you another reason not to do it.]

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kal
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PostLink    Posted: Sat May 19, 2012 12:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

VideoGrabber wrote:
The centralized staircase does constrain you in your current configuration. I'm not suggesting anything, but looking at your 3d-diagram on the first page, it seems like simply flipping your seating around 180-degrees would give you that 15' on the exterior wall. The obvious downside would be the loss of the window there.

Yes, that was considered. The problem is that we still need a hallway at the bottom of the stairs so the HT seating would be still be somewhat the same distance from the bottom wall (just flipped 180 degrees). That defines where the screens goes. So you'd still have the ~2 feet or so on one side but then a lot of room on the other. You could move the HT seating towards the staircase a bit and reduce the size of the riser but then you start to encroach on the walking area and it may not have been as balanced (more space to the left near of the seats the outside wall than the stairs). We're already cutting it somewhat close. I will be using some accoustic tile as you suggested to hopefully open things up a bit.

VideoGrabber wrote:
Make your AT screen 10' wide and 5' high. Why the extra height, when you only need 50" for 2.40 scope? So you can do CIA, instead of CIH. That would let you do regular 1.78-type video HD at 103x58, which is the same 6000-sq.inch area as scope. ~42-sq.feet. Then mask for each AR. (Or not*.) Just something to think about. You could use the full 60" high by 80 wide for old 4x3 classics. And have the space to take advantage of multi-AR films, like the IMAX stuff, without losing out on either height or width in a CIH or CIW compromise. It would certainly give you a 'unique' theater, unlike most others.

Agreed. CIH or CIA is definitely something I want to leave as an option in the future. It's not for this itteration. I need to get into the space and use it and understand the limitations. CIA may actually work better for my needs I've thought. I only mentioned CIH as it's more common/more understood.

VideoGrabber wrote:
LMAO. Gutting and rebuilding the whole basement, but you're drawing the line at replacing your screen. Very Happy Seriously though, I understand the sentiment, but do you really want to have to tear things up later, if you decide you'd like to do an AT screen? Doing it now would eliminate that ugliness. At the minimum, I'd suggest you might want to consider framing in an aperture now for a future AT screen, and fill it with a temporary wall filler. Then you could just pull it later when the urge struck you. Wink

Smile True. But to do all that I'd really to know what sort of size I'd want to go with which means more research into what will fill given the space constraints (which were just finalized recently). Then there's how to isolate the back room from the mechanical room farther back to avoid noise. I'd probably need an extra isolated wall... (we're leaving room for that for the future). Then there's the anamorphic lens vs. no lens option for the projector (which I think I've finally finalized since the mounting distance had to be determined). I guess I'm just really fussy/anal about it and want to do it one step at a time. Going digital will be a big enough jump for me. Wink

Kal

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VideoGrabber



Joined: 09 Apr 2006
Posts: 933
Location: Michigan


PostLink    Posted: Sat May 19, 2012 1:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kal wrote:
Yes, that was considered.

I suspected as much.

Quote:
I need to get into the space and use it and understand the limitations.

That makes sense. Very prudent.

Quote:
But to do all that I'd really to know what sort of size I'd want to go with...

Ah, good point. Quite true.

Quote:
I guess I'm just really fussy/anal about it and want to do it one step at a time.

Nothing wrong with that.

You're building with a lot of flexibility already, with the space behind the screen wall. So you'll still have options, once you make up your mind. It's just a wall... not set in stone. Smile You'll probably have to pull your equipment rack though, and some of the cabling, when you do the mods.

Quote:
CIA may actually work better for my needs I've thought.

Glad to hear you're considering CIA. Most don't/won't.

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PostLink    Posted: Sat May 19, 2012 2:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kal,
Since the walls are all open and your considering a CIH/AT screen you might think about having the carpenter frame in advance for it.

Have him frame in the header and the sill like a windows then put with studs between them and cover with sheet rock. When your ready for CIH/AT screen it would be a snap to cut the drywall out remove the studs and install the screen.

Mike

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kal
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PostLink    Posted: Sat May 19, 2012 2:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

VideoGrabber wrote:
You're building with a lot of flexibility already, with the space behind the screen wall. So you'll still have options, once you make up your mind. It's just a wall... not set in stone. Smile You'll probably have to pull your equipment rack though, and some of the cabling, when you do the mods.

Yup. Not too hard. We haven't even discussed how the equiment rack will be set up at this point so once that starts to get solidified I'll have a better idea of what I can do in the future. My only concern right now is that the recessed equipment rack which goes into the wall behind the screen (outside the bathroom) may make it harder to have speakers behind an a wide AT screen. We'll see

I do *really* love having the dead space behind the screen for the flexibility it provides.
Quote:
Glad to hear you're considering CIA. Most don't/won't.

Yup. We watch a lot of 16:9 AR stuff. Part of me doesn't like the fact that 16:9 material on a 2.35:1 screen would most likely end up SMALLER than what I have today. CIA is a good solution for some people (IMHO).

Kal

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kal
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PostLink    Posted: Sat May 19, 2012 2:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

MikeEby wrote:
Kal,
Since the walls are all open and your considering a CIH/AT screen you might think about having the carpenter frame in advance for it.

Have him frame in the header and the sill like a windows then put with studs between them and cover with sheet rock. When your ready for CIH/AT screen it would be a snap to cut the drywall out remove the studs and install the screen.

Tim & I were just talking about this above... Wink
The biggest issues is that I'd have to decide exactly what size to go with now to let them know which means figuring if if I want to go CIH or CIA, which means researching screens and sizes ahead of time. It's just a lot of things to figure out ahead of time especially when I don't have the projector in front of me to measure light outputs on various screen sizes to make sure it'll work ok. I'd rather have the projector up and play with the zooms with a bulb that's at mid-life and measure light output to make sure I'm hitting the lumens I expect.

The carpentry's easy. I can do that later down the road myself when/if I decide I want to go this route.

Kal

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VideoGrabber



Joined: 09 Apr 2006
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PostLink    Posted: Sat May 19, 2012 4:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kal wrote:

> My only concern right now is that the recessed equipment rack which goes into the wall behind the screen (outside the bathroom) may make it harder to have speakers behind an a wide AT screen. We'll see. <

That was my first thought, and I was going to mention it. But it depends on how deep your rack is. The gear won't be more than 2' deep (usually 18-20"), but the rack could be 3'. Even with a 10' wide AT screen, you probably won't want your L/R speakers more than 8' apart. That could be problematic with a deep rack.

> We watch a lot of 16:9 AR stuff. Part of me doesn't like the fact that 16:9 material on a 2.35:1 screen would most likely end up SMALLER than what I have today. CIA is a good solution for some people (IMHO). <

That's the dilemma of compromises. CIH screens are optimized for scope material, and the rest suffers. CIW screens are optimized for 16:9, and scope suffers. With CIA, neither has to suffer. Even when you get a combination in, say, Batman, or one of the other handful of mixed AR IMAX films.

With a 10' wide CIA screen as I described, your 16:9 AR stuff would be bigger than it is now (on both axes), and scope films would be just a couple inches shorter than filling your current screen, but 2-feet wider! (And of course, 10" taller than scope now is on your current screen.)

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kal
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PostLink    Posted: Sat May 19, 2012 12:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

VideoGrabber wrote:
That's the dilemma of compromises. CIH screens are optimized for scope material, and the rest suffers. CIW screens are optimized for 16:9, and scope suffers. With CIA, neither has to suffer. Even when you get a combination in, say, Batman, or one of the other handful of mixed AR IMAX films.

Exactly. The only downside to CIA I've always thought is more complex masking (if you're going to do masking) since you need to do masking both horizontally & vertically. CIH only needs to mask horizontally so it's easier (ie: cheaper). That said, I haven't done much reading about DIY masking systems. There are quite a few ingenious systems out there.

Quote:
With a 10' wide CIA screen as I described, your 16:9 AR stuff would be bigger than it is now (on both axes), and scope films would be just a couple inches shorter than filling your current screen, but 2-feet wider! (And of course, 10" taller than scope now is on your current screen.)

Yup! It's a nice way to go about it in some setups.

The purists will argue that it breaks SMPTE (Society of Television and Motion Picture Engineers) rules which call for CIH. But those rules probably (mostly) only existed because historically commercial movie theaters used curtains that slide left/right to do masking because it was cheap.

I was hashing a lot of this out back last October here: http://www.curtpalme.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=28931
That's when I decided I was going to have my plate full enough with redesigning everything in the basement (including brewery & bar) so I'd keep the same screen I have for now. I was happy with what I had before, so I knew I'd be happy with the same going forward.

Kal

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paw



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PostLink    Posted: Sun May 20, 2012 6:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kal wrote:
Labour cost for most parts of projects like this is everything. It's not uncommon to pay a plumber $500 to come and lay $50 worth of pipe, or to pay an electrician $300 to install $30 worth of outlets and wiring. This is completely normal. You're paying a skilled trade for their knowledge and experience, not for the value of the parts installed. The cost of materials spent is not relevant.


You need to off shore this it India or China! They work much cheaper. <political rant off>

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kal
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PostLink    Posted: Sun May 20, 2012 9:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

paw wrote:
You need to off shore this it India or China! They work much cheaper. <political rant off>

Yup true. I know it was a joke, but even if I could, I wouldn't want to. I like to keep the money local if I can.

Kal

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Ile



Joined: 09 Mar 2006
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Location: Jyväskylä, Finland


PostLink    Posted: Tue May 22, 2012 8:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Looking good!

As a finn I have to ask, any plans for sauna yet?

Have visited in sauna that have good sight lines to theater screen...
http://www.dvdfreax.com/theater/october2005/index.php
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kal
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PostLink    Posted: Tue May 22, 2012 12:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ile wrote:
Looking good!

As a finn I have to ask, any plans for sauna yet?

Yup! Both my parents are Estonian so there were always saunas around. I remember spending the summers at my grandparents' cottage with my grandfathers stocking the wood fired saunas constantly so that they'd be really hot at night (traditional sauna).

I originally thought it would be nice just to put in a small infra-red sauna as small/simple ones are fairly inexpensive and come already almost all pre-built, but then it just kept growing and growing in size to the point where it made more sense to go with a traditional sauna

The sauna's off the bathroom near the top/middle:



It's going to be a 5x7 foot sauna with L-shaped 2 heights of seating. Sort of like this:



I'm used to a traditional sauna (high heat/low humidity) but we're planning on using a heater that does both traditional heat sauna and cooler steam sauna using a Tylo Combi heater:



Link: http://www.amazon.com/mn/search/?_encoding=UTF8&tag=curtpalmecrtp-20&linkCode=ur2&camp=1789&creative=390957&field-keywords=tylo%20combi&url=search-alias%3Daps

To quote the manufacturer:

Quote:
The TYLÖ COMBI is quite simply the most sophisticated sauna heater on the market - the only heater that lets you enjoy traditional saunas and steam or herbal saunas (Tylarium) in one and the same room. The choice is yours - a traditional sauna at 68-90°C (155-194°F) in a relative humidity of 5-35%, or a steam sauna at 45- 65°C (110- 150°F) with 40-65% humidity.

You can even add a little spice to your bathing with a refreshing herbal sauna. The heater has built-in dispensers for dried or fresh natural herbs and liquid essences, so you can blend your own favorite fragrance.

The Combi has all the hallmark features of a quality Tylö heater, plus a number of special technical innovations: electronic programming of bathing mode, time, temperature and humidity; stainless steel water reservoir; memory function for recall of previous bathing mode and temperature settings; up to 10 hours pre-set function and 1 hour bathing time; automatic and manual on/off options; electronic low-water cut-off; and automatic drying function after completion of steam sauna cycle. Tylö Combi has an electronic control panel integrated into the front of the heater’s buffer rail.

Incorporates all the standard Tylö sauna features, including:

· Built-in humidifiers
· Deep stainless steel rock compartment
· Triple-mantled construction
· Thermosafe, velvet-smooth (cool-touch) covering



Ile wrote:
Have visited in sauna that have good sight lines to theater screen...
http://www.dvdfreax.com/theater/october2005/index.php

Interesting! I remember reading about that theater years ago. I didn't know they had a sauna as well. I don't have sight lines to the screen however.If they were still around, I don't think my grandfathers would have approved something like that anyway. Wink I remember as a kid they used to drill into our heads the Estonian sauna 'code of conduct': You had to be very quiet in the sauna. It wasn't a place to play, socialize, or drink. It was almost a place to meditate. As small kids however they probably just wanted to keep us quiet. Wink

Kal

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benareeno



Joined: 22 Mar 2006
Posts: 1614
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PostLink    Posted: Tue May 22, 2012 5:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

please...please...just try watching a 16:9 movie on a 2:35:1 screen...and cut off the top and bottom. Unless it's a tv show, it will likely look fine with a bit cut from top and bottom. I just watched Uncle buck like this...no issues. Notice that seinfeld is in HD now...why? Because you can cut off the top and bottom of the frame and not miss anything. Scope just looks better...period.

With all the money you have...it would have been worth it to get your basement dug out another foot. My friend did this and the difference was amazing...but alas, what's done is done.

i would say 3 identical speakers behind the screen is a miraculous difference in sound quality..and do it if you can. The screen is cheap too...

Tallinn...or tallin? That is the capital of estonia, right? I'm trying to learn every world capital...almost there.
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PostLink    Posted: Tue May 22, 2012 6:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

benareeno wrote:
please...please...just try watching a 16:9 movie on a 2:35:1 screen...and cut off the top and bottom. Unless it's a tv show, it will likely look fine with a bit cut from top and bottom. I just watched Uncle buck like this...no issues. Notice that seinfeld is in HD now...why? Because you can cut off the top and bottom of the frame and not miss anything. Scope just looks better...period.

Sorry, but I don't like to crop the image even if sometimes it doesn't seem like that big of a deal.

Quote:
it would have been worth it to get your basement dug out another foot. My friend did this and the difference was amazing...but alas, what's done is done.

That was already done. We paid to have an extra foot of basement ceiling height. That took the I-beams from 7.5 to 8.5 feet off the floor. There were spots where the ducts dropped another foot which have now all been moved. More height at this point would not give us anything usable and more than a foot from the builder wasn't even an option (this wasn't a custom build).

Quote:
i would say 3 identical speakers behind the screen is a miraculous difference in sound quality..and do it if you can. The screen is cheap too...

Agreed. We went through all this last October here: http://www.curtpalme.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=28931

Quote:
Tallinn...or tallin? That is the capital of estonia, right?

Correct. Tallinn: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tallinn

Kal

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Last edited by kal on Tue May 22, 2012 7:37 pm; edited 1 time in total
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benareeno



Joined: 22 Mar 2006
Posts: 1614
Location: ottawa, canada


PostLink    Posted: Tue May 22, 2012 7:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You are like a computer!

When the apocalypse happens....do you have room for one more in your compound?? Smile
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