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Kal's basement Home Theatre/Bar/Brewery build 2.0
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ecrabb
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PostLink    Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 7:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote


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kal wrote:
Ordered 100 sq ft of B-Quiet Ultimate - a viscoelastic deadener with a supercharged butyl based adhesive. It's a less expensive version of Dynamat and originally meant to deaden the sound in cars but is often used to quiet HVAC ducts and pipes as well. Similar to what you see installed under many sinks.


Quote:
Great stuff.

Here are some pics.




Great tip on the Dynamat / B-Quiet deadener, Kal. I've been meaning to do it to my house for some time, but never get around to it.

I don't know how the prices compare, but Elemental Designs (Iowa subwoofer manufacturer) also sells their own deadener called "E-Dead". They have the roll-on adhesive stuff, but they also have paint. Not sure how the prices compare to the other stuff.

http://www.edesignaudio.com/index.php?cPath=1_24

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zaphod



Joined: 16 Jun 2006
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PostLink    Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 8:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="kal"]Got it to work... lots of Carlon/Thomas & Betts distributors around Ottawa:

Quote:
Results of Search for Distributors within 25 miles of OTTAWA, ON

Kal


i've been looking for the same stuff and found the best price at smarthome.com. 100' roll of 3/4" (enough for 5.1 drops) for $60 or so.

i believe that home despot sells the 2" stuff and lots of connectors.

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kal
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TV/Projector: JVC DLA-RS56


PostLink    Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 9:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Smarthome wants $134 to ship the 2" dia stuff to me. Crazy. 3/4" isn't big enough IMHO.

I looked at a couple of my bigger HD's and they didn't have any 2" stuff.

I took a look at the ductwork and everything up there again and I think I have room to run Central PVC in a straight line. It's tight, goes against the joists for part of it (and the joists are jam packed with ducts) but I have the time to do it even if it takes 2-3 hours to run 20 feet.

Kal

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zaphod



Joined: 16 Jun 2006
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PostLink    Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 9:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kal wrote:
Smarthome wants $134 to ship the 2" dia stuff to me. Crazy. 3/4" isn't big enough IMHO.

I looked at a couple of my bigger HD's and they didn't have any 2" stuff.

I took a look at the ductwork and everything up there again and I think I have room to run Central PVC in a straight line. It's tight, goes against the joists for part of it (and the joists are jam packed with ducts) but I have the time to do it even if it takes 2-3 hours to run 20 feet.

Kal


but shipping is free to the lower 48 - i thought that you used a package receiver at the border. my bad. $134 is a silly price.

for the 5.1 i'm only running 1 line of canare starquad to each location and *maybe* some cheesy speaker cable for the next homeowner. the 3/4 should be fine for that. for the projector i'm stuck with a 2.5" elephant trunk feeding the lens pack and the hole for that is too big for the joists. i'm building a bulkhead for that.

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kal
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PostLink    Posted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 1:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So I managed to run 20' of standard central vac pipe for the conduit from the room behind the screen to the projector. Was fairly easy! Total cost: $13. Cool.


Question for you guys:

I'm installing these CARLON 1-Gang Plastic Low-Voltage Electrical Boxes in the walls before drywalling to run speaker wires:



The idea is to then later place these 1-Gang Recessed Low Voltage Cable Wall Plates on top:




The CARLON electrical boxes have top/bottom screws 3.25" apart just like a regular metal box where you might install a standard light switch.

But normally when you install a regular light switch, the switch itself screws to these holes 3.25" apart and then the cover place attaches to the switch itself with holes that are 3.75" apart.

So my question is: Does anyone know if Recessed Low Voltage Cable Wall Plates have holes 3.25" apart such that they can be installed into a standard junction box, or 3.75" requiring some sort of adapter? I'm assuming 3.25" ... I can't seem to find any sort of adapter to go between the two.

Back to the basement... got 500' of speaker wire to pull...

I need to get busy and post more pictures too. Electrical rough-in is all done now. Took the electrician 2.5 days.

Kal

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zaphod



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PostLink    Posted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 2:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i'm pretty sure that something which is designed to attach to a box (low or high voltage) will have 3.25 spacing. be it moderna, old school or what have you.

In my last place i used snap-in keystone style plates and they went directly onto 3.25" box spacing even though they were a "plate".

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kal
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PostLink    Posted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 4:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks! That's what I figured.

Kal

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kal
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PostLink    Posted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 5:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yesterday the electrician finished up doing all the pre-wiring. That's basically pulling all the necessary wiring to the various plugs, switches, pot lights, and installing gang boxes where required. It took two and half days. The ESA (electrical safety authority) inspection was done yesterday. No issues were found. After drywall goes up the wires are connected and another inspection takes place.






Prior to the electrician arriving we spent a few hours with the designer going over the wiring layout. What switch goes where, what lights are covered by which switch, where we want outlets. It was a few hours of wandering around writing on the studs like this one in the bathroom:



Translation: '$' means a switch is needed. In this case 4 switches are installed as follows:

1. A switch for the pot light over the bench beside the sauna and the two shower pots.
2. A switch for the two pot lights in the sauna.
3. A switch for the ceiling fan.
4. A switch for the vanity light.

We're installing 4 dedicated circuits for the home theater equipment as follows:

- One 15A dedicated circuit for the powered subwoofer (1 sub now, capacity for a second in the future if required).
- One 15A dedicated circuit for the projector.
- Two 20A dedicated circuits for the equipment rack.

In addition to a few regular lights and outlets, the brewery also gets the following:

- Three 15A dedicated circuits for (up to) three freezers/fridges. One retrofitted freezer (above 32F) is for the 8 kegs on tap, a second fridge or retrofitted freezer (at about 32F) will be for lagering/aging before kegs are put on tap, and a third small freezer (standard freezer temp below freezing) for storing hops/yeast/etc that will also serve to chill the antifreeze used keep the beer lines cold.

- A 30A/240V circuit for the brewery control panel. Normally this would call for 10/3 wire but I had the electrician install 6/3 so that if I ever want to upgrade to a higher power 50A control panel (to make larger batches of beer) it would be simple. The run was short so the cost difference should be negligible. You can oversize wire like this just fine. For now the receptacle will be a standard 30A/240V dryer outlet and the panel breaker will be standard 30A/2-pole. Both can easily be changed after the fact. Wiring in the walls cannot.


Speaking of upgrading... our electrical panel is 100A and the house is fairly large. This is completely to code. If you go through the math using the Ontario Electrical Code Book, as build, the house requires a 79.2A panel which means a 100A panel is adequate. If you finish the basement with nothing out of the ordinary (just standard lights/outlets done to minimum code requirements) and add air conditioning, this jumps up to 93A. Both are still below 100A so the builder installs a 100A panel as is required.

With a sauna, brewery, and possible future hot tub/pool in the backward it was obvious to me that we'd need a 200A panel. The builder wanted what I considered an overly high amount of money to upgrade the 100A panel to 200A so I said no as that's a fairly easy job to do after the fact (just time consuming): All houses around here have 200A from the transformer to the meter already. All that needs to be done is to replace the short 100A service conductor between the meter and panel with 200A wire (usually only a few feet through the wall and down), and swap out the panel/move the breakers. You have to pay the hydro service to come and turn your service off and then back on too of course.

Well, turns out that shortly before we moved in, after all the house wiring was already done, the builder realized that they had put the meter on the wrong side of the house. So the meter was moved to the other side outside the garage wall. A new ~75 to 100 foot service conductor was pulled from the meter to the panel since the two are now far apart. Because of the long length, a 100A breaker is needed to protect the service conductor. This breaker is on the inside of our garage (on the wall directly opposite the new meter location):



When I first saw this I found it odd but it's completely to code and is more common than I thought.

The unfortunate part is that now replacing our existing 100A panel with 200A means having to also replace that very long run of service conductor wire since it only supports 100A. That's an expensive piece of wire, and pulling that isn't easy as there's no conduit. I'm not even exactly sure where it goes since the garage floor was poured and all of the drywall everywhere was up I believe before they moved the meter. From the panel the service conductor goes up through the ceiling near the outside of the house. I think it may actually go all the way up to the attic and then down the other side of the house. It may even be 200' long! The existing 100A panel is the basement is also far away from the brewery which just happens to use the largest wire (6/3), so upgrading the existing panel isn't the best choice.

So change of plan! Instead what we're doing is installing a main 200A panel in the garage where the 100A service conductor breaker is today. That 100A breaker gets moved into main 200A panel as a branch circuit breaker, making the existing 100A basement panel a sub-panel that controls the entire house and most of the basement. Circuits from the brewery, bar, and sauna (about 8 circuits total) were then pulled to the garage to be served by the new 200A panel. You can see the wires coming in to the garage in the corner in the previous photo above. A channel/chase will be built out of 1x3's and 2x4's at the bottom of the drywall to enclose the wire. It'll then be drywalled and mudded.

So a pretty elegant solution since it allows the higher current devices (sauna & brewery) to use shorter wires and also allows us an easy way to pull wires to the backyard in the future for a hottub/pool (if required). Should be more than enough capacity. The sauna draws 29A while the brewery draws 23A when brewing (the control panel) plus a few freezers (about 1A each continuous).


Looking up, we have about 40 pot lights that will be installed. The lighting layout was done on paper first:



The pots are reno pots which means they go in after drywall (not before) so all that needed to be done now was to run the 14/2 wire to the various locations where it'll be needed. Once drywall goes up round holes are cut and wires attached.


While we don't use it, the house has a central vac rough-in with drops the basement. None of the drops are connected so some time was spend connecting all this up redirecting a couple of pipes to the mechanical room in case we ever wanted to use central vac in the future. Not much to see... here are some of the leftover pieces: Wink



I'm not a fan of central vac systems (I'm the 'vacuumer' in the house). I prefer our Miele canister vacuum - it's (IMHO) considerably easier to move around than the giant 30' hoses that central vac systems come with. The one place I do find that central vac works well is in kitchens where you can have little floor vents you can sweep into. That would be convenient.


With the larger shower and sauna, the builder installed bathroom ceiling fan that was part of the rough-in had to be replaced with a larger one:



We had originally paid the builder for a "basement bathroom rough-in" which included plumbing, electrical, framing, and fan. I think about the only think left from the rough-in is the $15 GFCI outlet and the $20 of 4" flexhose for the fan to the outside. Wink The framing was torn down because the room size was wrong, the plumbing was moved because of the addition of the urinal and the larger shower, the electrical was all redone, and now the fan isn't the right size. Ah well. Live and learn.

EDIT/CORRECTION: Actually, the builder GFCI is white. We're going to want black. So there you go... only the $20 flexhose is left. Money well spent. Wink


Over the bar is going to be a dropped ceiling/bulkhead that juts into the room with 3 pots. That was framed as well:



Getting closer one step at a time!

Now that electrical's all pulled I've started doing the low voltage wiring (speakers, CAT5, CAT6, RG6 coax). I wanted to wait until electrical was done because I want to try and keep the low voltage wiring away from the higher current wiring as much as possible. More on this next time...

Kal

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VideoGrabber



Joined: 09 Apr 2006
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PostLink    Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 12:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kal,

> The one place I do find that central vac works well is in kitchens where you can have little floor vents you can sweep into. That would be convenient. <

I was going to suggest you just get a Roomba for that. Wink But I took a look at the price, and those puppies are kind of expensive. Not to mention not very efficient.

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kal
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PostLink    Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 12:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

VideoGrabber wrote:
Kal,

> The one place I do find that central vac works well is in kitchens where you can have little floor vents you can sweep into. That would be convenient. <

I was going to suggest you just get a Roomba for that. Wink But I took a look at the price, and those puppies are kind of expensive. Not to mention not very efficient.

... and after 2 days of cleaning up food bits behind a 5 and 8 year old that robot would probably jam/choke. Amazing that kids grow at all given how much food ends up on the floor instead of in their mouth. </end parenting rant> Wink

Kal

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kal
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PostLink    Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 9:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

We're getting close to having to insulate the ceilings and inside walls for soundproofing and I thought I'd share something as there are insulation products available that are directly marketed for soundproofing such as OC Pink QuietZone and Roxul Safe and Sound.






The short answer:

Use regular cheap pink insulation. Costs less and is slightly better in some cases.

The long answer:

- For walls & ceilings use standard fibreglass insulation, the cheapest available.
- There is little benefit to using more than 6” of insulation (R13) even in ceiling joists, so don’t.
- It doesn’t matter where the insulation is in the joist cavity (top or bottom).
- Try not to compress it too much.
- Sometimes it’s easier to use paper backed insulation on ceilings so that you can staple it up.

Reasons:

1. Fiberglass has a slight edge in the low frequencies (where it is needed the most).
2. Don't ever compress the insulation. Compression increases density, lowering low frequency absorption and increasing conduction.
3. There is no data that supports that any other insulation (including the “acoustic” labelled, and recycled cotton) works better, no matter what Owens Corning or Roxul will tell you.
4. Don’t use foam. Foam (open or closed cell) is superior for thermal, but distinctly worse for acoustic.

The NRC in Canada put this all to rest in their big study IR 693. NRC Canada proved standard fibreglass it to be slightly better at low frequencies than mineral fiber, cellulose, polyester and cotton. They showed that low density is better than high density, open cell is better than closed cell. Cellulose, mineral and fiberglass are all close, but fiberglass was the marginal winner in the low frequencies. The good news is that fiberglass is not only the best choice, but the cheapest. OC Pink QuietZone and Roxul Safe and Sound have zero benefit for sound isolating.

Backed by:

NRC Canada study IR693: http://www.nrc-cnrc.gc.ca/obj/irc/doc/pubs/ir/ir832/ir832.pdf

Dennis Erskine CFI, CFII, MEI
Architectural Acoustics
Subject Matter Expert
Certified Home Theater Designer
CEDIA Board of Directors

Ted White – Founder http://www.soundproofingcompany.com/ - makers of Green Glue.

Terry Montlick
Terry Montlick Laboratories
Home Theater Acoustics
Critical Listening Rooms
Design, Evaluation, Alpha Certification

... and thousands of others.

Kal

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zaphod



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PostLink    Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 10:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

very very interesting. The roxul stuff gets lots of promotion for acoustic treatments (particularly stuffing corners for bass traps). i'll have to pull that article.
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kal
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PostLink    Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 2:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kal wrote:
The CARLON electrical boxes have top/bottom screws 3.25" apart just like a regular metal box where you might install a standard light switch.

But normally when you install a regular light switch, the switch itself screws to these holes 3.25" apart and then the cover place attaches to the switch itself with holes that are 3.75" apart.

So my question is: Does anyone know if Recessed Low Voltage Cable Wall Plates have holes 3.25" apart such that they can be installed into a standard junction box, or 3.75" requiring some sort of adapter? I'm assuming 3.25" ... I can't seem to find any sort of adapter to go between the two.

Got the low voltage black plates in and they fit perfectly as I suspected. Whoever designed these was also nice enough to offset the screws slightly so that if you have two 1-gang boxes side by side, one with regular outlets and one with this low voltage plate, that the covers line up. Make sense!

Kal

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kal
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PostLink    Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 8:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The parts for the sauna arrived today:



The layout is going to look like this:



All finished in clear cedar so it looks something like this:



Benches at two heights: Lower row is L-shaped and has a depth of 16", the upper row has a depth of 20". Because heat rises, the higher you sit in a sauna, the hotter it is. Having two different heights allows people to share the sauna but not necessarily experience the same heat.

Sizing the heater correctly is important. Too small and you won't be able to heat the room correctly. Our 5x7' sauna room has ceilings just uner 82" high so 239 cubic feet. We chose the Swedish made Tylo Combi U7 heater which provides 7000W of heating power (29A current draw, requires a 40A/240V circuit). It's said to be sufficient for rooms from 140 to 320 cubic feet. Ours is right in the middle so it should work great. There's a U8 model available too for larger rooms (up to 440 cubic feet). They look like this:



Tylo Combi heaters are unique as they give you the option of traditional saunas or steam saunas in the same room. A traditional sauna is typically hotter at 68-90°C (155-194°F) in a lower relative humidity of 5-35%, while a steam sauna is typically cooler at 45- 65°C (110- 150°F) with a higher 40-65% humidity.

Some Finns/Estonians will argue that anything below 200°F isn't a "real" sauna as they tend to like higher temperatures: 176-230F. The relatively low humidity allows air temperatures that could boil water to be tolerated and even enjoyed for longer periods of time. These hotter saunas are what I'm used to given my Estonian background.

Doing some research, it seems that temperatures above 194°F (90°C) are not allowed in North America because of C.S.A. and U.L. standards set back in 1982. At that time, it was also mandated that there must be a high-temperature limit switch within the sauna heater. The limit switch must shut down the heater under any abnormal operating condition and have a one-hour timer maximum on all residential sauna controls. Hmmm, we'll see. There's likely a bypass switch somewhere. Wink

The control panel is integrated into the front of the heater’s buffer rail which is nice. No need to put something on the outside wall. The "Thermosafe" velvet-smooth (cool-touch) covering is also a bonus.

Kal

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PostLink    Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 8:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

> Our 5x7' sauna room has ceilings just uner 82" high so 239 sq ft. < (and elsewhere)

Cubic.

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PostLink    Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 8:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Doh! Yes, of course. I'll fix the post.

Kal

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ecrabb
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PostLink    Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 9:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hmmm... I'll have to try sauna some time. I can see how it would be good for the skin, but it doesn't seem like an overly pleasant experience otherwise. I live in a farm field though, so excuse my ignorance on the subject. Wink

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PostLink    Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 10:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can imagine the cold beer bringing more pleasure in the sauna.. Looks great Kal.
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kal
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PostLink    Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 1:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's been years but I find that it's after the sauna that you reap the biggest rewards: You've just sweat profusely which helps clean out the pores. Once you're cooled off and having a cold one, it's the most relaxing feeling in the world. You sleep like a rock.

Kal

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PostLink    Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 7:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kal wrote:
Sizing the heater correctly is important. Too small and you won't be able to heat the room correctly.


If sauna have glass door/wall or wall areas without insulation like tiles it's needed pay more attention to heeter sizing. It's good to multiple room cubic volume by least 1.5 to be at safe side.

I think your 7kW heater will be good for that size room and it will heat pretty fast, probably around 45 minutes to 85 C (185 F). Knowing swedish and norwegian saunas, I guess that you need least 2 times more stones to heater and +20 degree to preset temp. Laughing

I agree, cold beer after sauna rocks. Thumbs Up
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