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Turntables - Are they spinning their way back?
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draganm




Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 8990
Location: Colorado


PostLink    Posted: Sun Dec 06, 2015 6:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote


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kal wrote:
draganm wrote:
I actually said 70% wrong, maybe now that I'm a better mood I might go 65% wrong Wink . but, you really want to debate percentages?

I don't. You keep changing your mind. Wink
pretty sure I haven't, unless you consider a 5% adjustment as being wish washy, and I was joking there hence the Wink

kal wrote:
draganm wrote:
Anyway, I love to argue

I don't. I like to have logical back and forth discussions.
For that reason, I'm outta here.
well an argument is just a heated debate. logical back and forth discussions is a matter of opinion, who's being logical and who's not. I thought my reasons for why the list is flawed were prety clearly and consistent.

Anyway, I put on my mint, original Sgt. Pooper yesterday. I skipped the first 3 songs since they've been played to death and I'm so jaded to them.
So starting with

4) getting better- mewling boy band chorus, happy go lucky song, teenagers worldwide loved it
5) fixing a hole- it's a good song, good composition, some interesting possibly unique musical themes. etc.
6) She's leaving home - ode to their original screaming girl audience , now grown up and leaving home, boo-hoo
7) being for the benefit of Mr. Kite- quaint little English song about life in , well, a small English town . sounds like a "filler tune", means absolutely nothing unless you grew up in a small English town

side 2
8) Withing you without you- This is supposedly the seminal work on this album , I mean the Beatles went to India, and wow they discovered Indian Music and were the first to put it on a western Album. This is amazing, like Columbus discovering America, a continent that had a half million people living on it already. Big f*cking deal, they didn't even bother to write something that was unique using Indian drums and Sitars, they just coped music that was already a thousand years old.
9)when I'm sixty four- one word, Garp with robbin Williams. A 1920's melody with some decent lyrics, it's ok
10) lovely rita- sounds like 50 previous Beatles songs, it's ok
11) Good morning, good morning- this song is second only to Lucy in the Sky for it's annoyance factor , their screechy voices are like fingernails on a chalkboard'
12) A Day in the life- The one truly great song on the album, you could make the argument one of the best songs ever. They keep the vocals under control, the music is beautiful, etc.

So is this the BEST ALBUM EVER, I can't imagine how much pot you would have to smoke to come to that conclusion. It's not even top 10
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El Duderino




Joined: 23 Jan 2011
Posts: 4627
Location: Portland, OR


PostLink    Posted: Sun Dec 06, 2015 9:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

draganm wrote:
I skipped the first 3 songs since they've been played to death and I'm so jaded to them.

They've been played to death, for nearly 5 decades, because, because, they suck?

draganm wrote:
11) Good morning, good morning- this song is second only to Lucy in the Sky for it's annoyance factor , their screechy voices are like fingernails on a chalkboard'

This one had me LOL. One of your favorite bands is Rush. (actually one of mine too). When it comes to high-pitched screechy vocals, see Geddy Lee. Laughing

There's plenty of other points I could argue with you here, as well as your previous response to me, but I wont bother much further. There's little need when you're largely torpedoing your own boat here. Confused
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garyfritz




Joined: 08 Apr 2006
Posts: 12024
Location: Fort Collins, CO


PostLink    Posted: Mon Dec 07, 2015 3:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gotta agree with you there Dude. I really like a lot of Rush's music, interesting and complex, but Geddy's voice drives me up a wall.
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draganm




Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 8990
Location: Colorado


PostLink    Posted: Mon Dec 07, 2015 5:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

El Duderino wrote:
draganm wrote:
I skipped the first 3 songs since they've been played to death and I'm so jaded to them.

They've been played to death, for nearly 5 decades, because, because, they suck?
they were played because they were popular, just like Stairway to Heaven was played a hell of a lot more and LZ4 is #69 on the list. The RS500 isn't supposed to be a pop contest.

El Duderino wrote:
draganm wrote:
11) Good morning, good morning- this song is second only to Lucy in the Sky for it's annoyance factor , their screechy voices are like fingernails on a chalkboard'

This one had me LOL. One of your favorite bands is Rush. (actually one of mine too). When it comes to high-pitched screechy vocals, see Geddy Lee. Laughing
well it's a matter of taste, Geddy's voice is a take it or leave it thing just like the annoying bleating of the Beatles. I'm not out on a limb here though, John Lennon hated the sound of his own voice and often asked Martin To cover it up during mastering, I just happen to agree with him.
But again, my review of Sgt. Poopers lonely sharts club band wasn't based entirely on the quality of the vocals, it was just one of it's many shortcomings.

El Duderino wrote:
There's plenty of other points I could argue with you here, as well as your previous response to me, but I wont bother much further. There's little need when you're largely torpedoing your own boat here. Confused
well it's good to see you admit you're wrong and concede defeat.

garyfritz wrote:
Gotta agree with you there Dude. I really like a lot of Rush's music, interesting and complex, but Geddy's voice drives me up a wall.
fair enough, I don't fault anyone for not liking Rush. BTW, not one of their albums made the top 500 , despite the fact that the music they wrote was practically an Anthem for a generation. Run DMC, a bunch of scratching yahoos who just copied and covered other peoples music with squeaks and Ebonics, have 2 albums right where Rush should have been. I could write a couple of Paragraphs why Rush should be on the list, their musical style, Pert's drumming, their unique time changes, and other things no one has done before or since, but hey who cares right, we all know and agree now that RS top 500 is 70% sh*t .
Wink


Last edited by draganm on Tue Dec 08, 2015 5:50 pm; edited 1 time in total
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garyfritz




Joined: 08 Apr 2006
Posts: 12024
Location: Fort Collins, CO


PostLink    Posted: Mon Dec 07, 2015 6:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You seem to think everybody is capitulating and agreeing with you. That's either self-delusion or wishful thinking. Smile

Yes, Rush had some real contributions -- but that English boy band you keep whining about was pretty big in that area too. Earlier bands and most other 60's bands were doing really basic 3-chord verse-chorus-bridge stuff. The Beatles cranked up the musical sophistication quite a bit, believe it or not. They started out in 3-chord mode, but many of their mid-60's songs had 8-10-12 chords or more, with a much higher level of harmonic complexity than other bands of the time. E.g. "If I Fell" in 1964 had 8 chords just in the intro, 10 or 11 in the whole song. That creates (or can create) a much more complex, layered, beautiful tune. The Beatles (actually mostly George Martin) also revolutionized rock music production, moving from the "Buddy Holly 3 guys in front of a microphone" model to the much more flexible and powerful studio model that everybody else adopted. Sgt Pepper was the culmination of that effort.

But I gotta admit Pert is a slightly better drummer than Ringo. Laughing
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Clarence




Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 3792
Location: Smith Mtn Lake, VA


PostLink    Posted: Tue Dec 08, 2015 4:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In Cincinnati this week. Several good record stores. Tonight's per diem was spent at "Everybody's Records".

RS500 finds:
Allman Bros at Fillmore
Notorious Byrd Brothers
Who at Leeds
Fleetwood Mac self-titled
Mott
Meat Loaf Bat

Non RS: Stones, Petty, OAR, Dire, UB40, Waterboys, Gilmour About Face, English Beat, and 2 BB Kings
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draganm




Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 8990
Location: Colorado


PostLink    Posted: Tue Dec 08, 2015 5:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garyfritz wrote:
You seem to think everybody is capitulating and agreeing with you. That's either self-delusion or wishful thinking. Smile
when you throw the towel into the ring your conceding that you lost Wink


garyfritz wrote:
The Beatles (actually mostly George Martin) also revolutionized rock music production, moving from the "Buddy Holly 3 guys in front of a microphone" model to the much more flexible and powerful studio model that everybody else adopted. Sgt Pepper was the culmination of that effort.
they weren't, the Kingsmen adopted this format at the same time or just prior, the Beatles just happened to hit it big using the 4 man format with Please Please Me . The only thing I can say is maybe the "first psychedelic album cover" with Revolver .

garyfritz wrote:
Yes, Rush had some real contributions -- but that English boy band you keep whining about was pretty big in that area too. Earlier bands and most other 60's bands were doing really basic 3-chord verse-chorus-bridge stuff. The Beatles cranked up the musical sophistication quite a bit, believe it or not. They started out in 3-chord mode, but many of their mid-60's songs had 8-10-12 chords or more, with a much higher level of harmonic complexity than other bands of the time. E.g. "If I Fell" in 1964 had 8 chords just in the intro, 10 or 11 in the whole song. That creates (or can create) a much more complex, layered, beautiful tune.
well maybe harmonic complexity just doesn't strike a chord with me . Seriously though, a lot of their stuff was also studio gimmicks. Look At Revolver, supposedly another trans formative album, they never performed it live. Why, because it was full of Studio tricks and things they couldn't reproduce in a live performance.

Even though I don't like their music , I never said they don't belong on the top 500 , or even top 10. Rubber soul was new, influential, and didn't sound like anything before it, first use of Sitar, introduced new genre now called " world music" , etc. I can see it in top 10 or maybe even #1. But Revolver and White Album and Sgt. Pooper at number 1, no way.
My biggest peeve with RS 500 is that so many great albums are skipped and so much garbage is included. The Beatles Fixation is peeve #2

garyfritz wrote:
But I gotta admit Pert is a slightly better drummer than Ringo. Laughing
not going ot pick on Ringo, still alive and involved with music, not an easy thing in that business.

Clarence wrote:
Who at Leeds
supposedly one of the best live Rock performances ever, by anyone , i'm actually missing that one:(

Clarence wrote:
Fleetwood Mac self-titled
first album with Nicks and Buckingham, excellent album,definitely a must-have for any serious vinyl collection. Nice thing about these is Warner Bros did an excellent job on the mass produced version and you don't really need an audiophile re-master, 180 gram, etc. Recorded/Mastered at Sound city, they made a movie about it and the all-analog console.
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garyfritz




Joined: 08 Apr 2006
Posts: 12024
Location: Fort Collins, CO


PostLink    Posted: Tue Dec 08, 2015 11:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

draganm wrote:
garyfritz wrote:
The Beatles (actually mostly George Martin) also revolutionized rock music production, moving from the "Buddy Holly 3 guys in front of a microphone" model to the much more flexible and powerful studio model that everybody else adopted. Sgt Pepper was the culmination of that effort.
they weren't, the Kingsmen adopted this format at the same time or just prior,

Where did you hear that? They sure didn't use anything like that for "Louie Louie," which was "4 guys in front of 3 microphones." I'm sure they got more sophisticated than that in later recordings, but I don't think any of their earlier songs could compare with Martin's production.

Many bands started doing more complex production as 4- and 8-track recorders became available in the 60's, but the Beatles were particularly creative and experimental with their studio time. See e.g. wikipedia.
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Curt Palme
CRT Tech



Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 24296
Location: Langley, BC

TV/Projector: All of them!


PostLink    Posted: Tue Dec 08, 2015 11:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

draganm wrote:

Clarence wrote:
Fleetwood Mac self-titled
first album with Nicks and Buckingham, excellent album,definitely a must-have for any serious vinyl collection. Nice thing about these is Warner Bros did an excellent job on the mass produced version and you don't really need an audiophile re-master, 180 gram, etc. Recorded/Mastered at Sound city, they made a movie about it and the all-analog console.


Helluva movie to watch, well worth it to buy on BluRay.
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draganm




Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 8990
Location: Colorado


PostLink    Posted: Wed Dec 09, 2015 1:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

garyfritz wrote:
Where did you hear that? They sure didn't use anything like that for "Louie Louie," which was "4 guys in front of 3 microphones." I'm sure they got more sophisticated than that in later recordings, but I don't think any of their earlier songs could compare with Martin's production.
Not really sure what your getting at here, the Beatles got rid of 1 microphone? let me know if this sounds familiar

In 1959, Lynn Easton invited Jack Ely to play with him at a Portland Hotel gig, with Ely singing and playing guitar and Easton on the drum kit.[2] The two teenagers grew up together, as their parents were close friends.[2] Easton and Ely performed at yacht club parties, and soon added Mike Mitchell on guitar and Bob Nordby on bass to round out the band. They called themselves the Kingsmen, taking the name from a recently disbanded group.[3] The Kingsmen began their collective career playing at fashion shows, Red Cross events, and supermarket promotions, generally avoiding rock songs on their setlist.

Sounds a lot like and "John and Paul were best friends, and eventually invited George to come join them as they played neighborhood gigs in 1960. Eventually they found Ringo and soon young girls everywhere going thru puberty would scream their heads off. "



garyfritz wrote:
Many bands started doing more complex production as 4- and 8-track recorders became available in the 60's, but the Beatles were particularly creative and experimental with their studio time.
the first multi-track (more than 2) recording machine was designed by Les Paul and ordered from Ampex in the early 50's as a custom 8 track machine. (same guy who invented electric guitar before we credit the Beatles with that too) .
So to say the Beatles pioneered a 4 or 8 track format is , once again, just Beatlemania.

Anyway, this is getting off topic, we were talking about the RS500 and whether Sgt. Pooper is the BEST album EVER! Surprised or not.
Whether 3 more of the 10 best albums ever also belong to them, or not.
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garyfritz




Joined: 08 Apr 2006
Posts: 12024
Location: Fort Collins, CO


PostLink    Posted: Wed Dec 09, 2015 2:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

draganm wrote:
Not really sure what your getting at here, the Beatles got rid of 1 microphone? let me know if this sounds familiar

No, the Beatles moved away from the "live performance in front of a mike / several mikes" format (which the Kingsmen used in the Louie Louie recording you referenced) and started using the studio itself as a very flexible "instrument." See the wiki I linked above for some descriptions of the things they tried with their basically-unlimited studio time at Abbey Road.

Quote:
the first multi-track (more than 2) recording machine was designed by Les Paul and ordered from Ampex in the early 50's as a custom 8 track machine.

According to this wiki article, it was conceived and designed by Ross Snyder at Ampex and sold to Les Paul (and the Gibson website agrees) but Paul might have been involved in the design process. But the article I linked above said (non-custom) 4-track decks weren't really available until 1963.

Ol' Les was a pretty amazing tinkerer / inventor / builder / ubermusician. See e.g. http://www.gibson.com/News-Lifestyle/Features/en-us/Les-Paul-Recording-Innovations.aspx

Here's Les & Mary Ford on an early multi-track recording. Imagine how incredible this sounded in 1951 !!!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NkGf1GHAxhE
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Clarence




Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 3792
Location: Smith Mtn Lake, VA


PostLink    Posted: Thu Dec 10, 2015 1:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tonight's per diem at a great record store in downtown Cinci, Shake It...

RS500:
98 Elvis Costello this years model
173 Todd rundgren something anything
174 Dylan desire
188 buffalo Springfield again
194 Lou reed transformer
266 bs&t child is father
270 Rolling Stones some girls
315 petty torpedoes
351 Neil Young rust never sleeps
484 Mott young dudes

Non RS:
SRV in step
Foo fighters sonic highways
Drivin n Cryin mystery road
2 cage the elephant
3 JJ Cale
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Clarence




Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 3792
Location: Smith Mtn Lake, VA


PostLink    Posted: Fri Dec 11, 2015 1:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tonight's dinner at Cinci's "Plaid Room Record Shop"

81 clash
162 Radiohead ok computer
246 mothers of invention
267 who quadrophenia
383 talking heads buildings and food
467 Springsteen tunnel of love
486 earth wind & fire

U2 wide awake in America
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Clarence




Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 3792
Location: Smith Mtn Lake, VA


PostLink    Posted: Sat Dec 12, 2015 1:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dragan, another interesting list site:
http://www.besteveralbums.com/overall.php
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draganm




Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 8990
Location: Colorado


PostLink    Posted: Sun Dec 20, 2015 5:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Clarence wrote:
dragan, another interesting list site:
http://www.besteveralbums.com/overall.php
I'm not familiar with some of those albums but at least that one is starting to make sense. Wink
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garyfritz




Joined: 08 Apr 2006
Posts: 12024
Location: Fort Collins, CO


PostLink    Posted: Mon Dec 21, 2015 4:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Note, Dragan: that list is a consolidation of thousands of "top XX" lists -- and it has 3 Beatles albums in the top 5. Most people don't agree with your "screechy boy band" opinion!
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draganm




Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 8990
Location: Colorado


PostLink    Posted: Mon Dec 21, 2015 9:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garyfritz wrote:
Note, Dragan: that list is a consolidation of thousands of "top XX" lists -- and it has 3 Beatles albums in the top 5. Most people don't agree with your "screechy boy band" opinion!
notice how I highlighted "starting" to make sense?
The friggin Beach Boys were just as influential and revolutionary as the Beatles, the 2 bands produced concurrently and influenced each other, yest I don't see Pet Sounds on the RS 500 at all. At least in the "compilation" it's at 13. IT also puts Revolver and Abbey Road ahead Sgt Poopers and Dark side of the Moon is ahead of all of them. Of course #1 is a head scratcher but ........
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garyfritz




Joined: 08 Apr 2006
Posts: 12024
Location: Fort Collins, CO


PostLink    Posted: Mon Dec 21, 2015 10:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

draganm wrote:
Of course #1 is a head scratcher but ........

Yeah, that IS pretty suspicious. And #6 is Radiohead too!? And #15 and #16!?? Something's not right there.

And who the f*** is "Neutral Milk Hotel" at # 17!?

And much as I love the Beach Boys, I wouldn't put them anywhere near the same league as the Beatles. Their music (including a lot of Pet Sounds, certainly the commercially-successful songs) was almost entirely the same surf-flavored style. IMO the Beatles were a lot more inventive and creative, once they got past the "I wanna hold your hand" stage. Especially later, they pushed in all kinds of directions.
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Clarence




Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 3792
Location: Smith Mtn Lake, VA


PostLink    Posted: Tue Dec 22, 2015 1:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

draganm wrote:
The friggin Beach Boys were just as influential and revolutionary as the Beatles, the 2 bands produced concurrently and influenced each other, yest I don't see Pet Sounds on the RS 500 at all.
Look at #2:
http://loco-photo.com/rs500.htm

I don't add the graphic of the album cover until the LP is on my shelf.
Pet Sounds is under our Christmas tree. Cool


Last edited by Clarence on Tue Dec 22, 2015 1:29 am; edited 2 times in total
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Clarence




Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 3792
Location: Smith Mtn Lake, VA


PostLink    Posted: Tue Dec 22, 2015 1:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

garyfritz wrote:
draganm wrote:
Of course #1 is a head scratcher but ........

Yeah, that IS pretty suspicious. And #6 is Radiohead too!? And #15 and #16!?? Something's not right there.


Yeah, waaaay too much Radiohead. I bought OK Computer on vinyl and just don't get it. My oldest son says I need to keep trying.
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