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Darbeevision
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Boilermaker



Joined: 21 May 2006
Posts: 527



PostLink    Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 7:21 pm    Post subject: Darbeevision Reply with quote


        Register to remove this ad. It's free!
Does anyone know anything about this new toy about to come out? Is it a gimmick, or does it actually do something positive?

It's at darbeevisiondotcom.

Bob

EDIT- NOW AVAILABLE FOR ORDER HERE:

http://www.curtpalme.com/Darbee.shtm
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Nashou66



Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16167
Location: West Seneca NY


PostLink    Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 7:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was reading about that on the Video processor forums on AVS. Mark Hafflic whos opinion I respect being a diehard CRT owner in the past says he loves it. How it works I have no idea. But from the buzz they can't live with out it now.

Athanasios

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Boilermaker



Joined: 21 May 2006
Posts: 527



PostLink    Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 8:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I also respect Mark's opinion. It almost appears as though it increases the dynamic contrast throughout the picture without losing proper gamma at the low end or overdriving the white end.

Knowing you as well as I do, I know you will have one on order before the end of the day so you will be able to tell all of us what it looks like on your blend! RIGHT?


Bob
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Nashou66



Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16167
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PostLink    Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 8:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No f*cking way!!!! those are expensive!!!

Very Happy

Nashou

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Boilermaker



Joined: 21 May 2006
Posts: 527



PostLink    Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 8:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

$258!!! You spend that much on a turbo boost for your rice-rocket!

I'm fascinated by it, so I sent them an email with questions on whether it can handle 1080P@72 and what effect it might have on calibration. I'll let you know what they say.

Bob
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Nashou66



Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16167
Location: West Seneca NY


PostLink    Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 8:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Boilermaker wrote:
$258!!! You spend that much on a turbo boost for your rice-rocket!

I'm fascinated by it, so I sent them an email with questions on whether it can handle 1080P@72 and what effect it might have on calibration. I'll let you know what they say.

Bob


wait, they were talking about another device in the same thread. Some color processor, spectracal sells it, I must have thought DV was that.

Still I'm saving up for a second pair of AR2,2x,2xA's to match the pair i already have to make a
quadraphonic set up.

Athanasios

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Boilermaker



Joined: 21 May 2006
Posts: 527



PostLink    Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 8:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think you should go to their site and look at the demo!
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Boilermaker



Joined: 21 May 2006
Posts: 527



PostLink    Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 8:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Still I'm saving up for a second pair of AR2,2x,2xA's to match the pair i already have to make a
quadraphonic set up.


I've probably got a bunch of old quadraphonic disc somewhere if you are interested - Do you have am old quad cartridge?
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Nashou66



Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16167
Location: West Seneca NY


PostLink    Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 8:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I heard you only need an elliptical one.

Nashou

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"Republicans believe every day is the Fourth of July, but the Democrats believe every day is April 15." --- President Reagan

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Boilermaker



Joined: 21 May 2006
Posts: 527



PostLink    Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 9:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I heard you only need an elliptical one.


I can't remember for sure but I think it has to have a frequency response out to about 35Khz and you will need a decoder which I assume you already have.
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Nashou66



Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16167
Location: West Seneca NY


PostLink    Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 9:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah I have a decoder, and over on the Quaddraphincquad.com they say any stylus will usually work. I think it was a sales gimmick to sell "quad" cartridges .

I have the Realistic ARS 727( rebadged fisher 601 quad) and recently found its original too in better shape than the ARS.

I have a set of AR2's I bought for 50 bucks maybe 20 years ago. I redid the cross over( pooged it!!) and removed the two 4" cone tweeters and replaced it with a high end soft dome 1 1/2" tweeter. For got the name. It was 119 a pair back then. But i must say the sound improvement was awesome!! I listen to vinyl a lot now on my HH Scott 299C, AR XA turntable with a denon DL110 cart and the AR2's.

Ok this thread went sideways!!!

Athanasios

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Don't blame your underwear for your crooked ass~ unknown Greek philosopher


"Republicans believe every day is the Fourth of July, but the Democrats believe every day is April 15." --- President Reagan

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Boilermaker



Joined: 21 May 2006
Posts: 527



PostLink    Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2012 2:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Ok this thread went sideways!!!


Curt doesn't mind - He's a sucker for audio talk!

I just heard back from Darbeevision. They said the maximum pixel clock is 165Mhz, so 72hz wouldn't work. That won't really effect anything in a blend, however. He also said that there would be no effect on calibration as there is no "global" changes to grayscale/gamma/cms. He did recommend to null out any "sharpness" controls as Darbeevision increases the apparent sharpness. I think the word "global" is a hint as to what this thing does. Their demo's are impressive, but I'm concerned if this won't come off as gimmickey.

Bob
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Nashou66



Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16167
Location: West Seneca NY


PostLink    Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2012 2:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Id put it after the BD player right?

Nashou

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Don't blame your underwear for your crooked ass~ unknown Greek philosopher


"Republicans believe every day is the Fourth of July, but the Democrats believe every day is April 15." --- President Reagan

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Boilermaker



Joined: 21 May 2006
Posts: 527



PostLink    Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2012 3:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Id put it after the BD player right?


Yes, and it should act as a pass-through device for hdcp to Mr. Moome without a hiccup.
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cinema mad



Joined: 25 Nov 2009
Posts: 219



PostLink    Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2012 3:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bob Just wondering if you got around to trying out your Darblet with your CRT blend yet..

cheers..
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CIR Engineering



Joined: 25 Aug 2008
Posts: 3872
Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany


PostLink    Posted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 2:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I really can't believe that people are lining up to pay money for a device that will intentionally add distortion to their video chain. Really unbelievable.

OK, I will shut up now and stay out of the Darbeevision thread.

craigr

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ecrabb
Forum Moderator


Joined: 13 Mar 2006
Posts: 15909
Location: Utah

TV/Projector: JVC RS40, Epson 5010


PostLink    Posted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 4:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Craig, almost everything adds distortion of the video chain! The display technology itself adds distortion to the video chain!

Question: Have you ever used a bass or treble knob on an audio setup?

SC
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HogPilot



Joined: 21 Jan 2010
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TV/Projector: Vizio P702ui-B3, Pioneer Elite Pro-151FD & 111FD


PostLink    Posted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 6:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ecrabb wrote:
Craig, almost everything adds distortion of the video chain! The display technology itself adds distortion to the video chain!


That goes without saying, if you look at "distortion" as changing the original signal in any way. However, given the limitations of mass produced consumer electronics and the fact that displays don't come to us already calibrated, "distorting" the video signal is the only way we have to correct for (or at least minimize) these issues.

If your projector is producing significantly oversaturated green, would you argue that you shouldn't "distort" the video signal, knowing that green is being incorrectly reproduced? No, because the image is already being distorted in a very objective and measurable way by the projector. Changing the video signal itself to return the image back to established imaging standards is quite different from something like the Darbee (or the sharpening control on any digital display) whose only purpose is to add distortion to the picture. Whether or not the end result is desirable is really up to the end user. But from a pure fidelity standpoint, the Darbee really has no place in a video chain.

ecrabb wrote:
Question: Have you ever used a bass or treble knob on an audio setup?

SC


What's really important is why one uses such controls. Ignoring the extreme coarseness of the particular controls you listed for a second, if you're cranking the bass because you just like more bass, then that's distorting the audio from how it was originally mastered to sound. However if you're doing it because of a deficiency in your speakers or room that leads to a non-linear frequency response, then from a fidelity standpoint it's perfectly acceptable.

Again, all of this - and Craig's comment - is stated from a standpoint that places fidelity above all other things. Obviously people can choose to strive for fidelity in their setups, or they can season to taste with more bass, more saturated greens, and bluer whites. Each person has to be able to enjoy and feel satisfied with their setup!

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ecrabb wrote:
Curt Palme wrote:
Interesting, Mac isn't returning my emails. Go figure.

He's mad at us for making Hog a moderator. He took his ball and went home.

SC
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Spanky Ham



Joined: 22 Mar 2006
Posts: 5634
Location: Comedy Central


PostLink    Posted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 9:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CIR Engineering wrote:
I really can't believe that people are lining up to pay money for a device that will intentionally add distortion to their video chain. Really unbelievable.

OK, I will shut up now and stay out of the Darbeevision thread.

craigr


I think there are a lot of people questioning the tech. A lot of those same people have tried it and liked it.
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VideoGrabber



Joined: 09 Apr 2006
Posts: 933
Location: Michigan


PostLink    Posted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 9:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CIR Engineering wrote:
I really can't believe that people are lining up to pay money for a device that will intentionally add distortion to their video chain. Really unbelievable.

I've found it a bit surprising as well. However it's possible that adding distortion isn't the only thing it can do. Even though that does seem to be the primary purpose it is being advertised for. Shocked

Quote:
OK, I will shut up now and stay out of the Darbeevision thread.

Actually, I'd prefer to see you contributing here on this, since you have the tech (both test gear and knowledge) to evaluate it's operation in a more objective fashion. While other evaluations will all be subjective, and probably highly variable (if not somewhat debatable Smile).

For example, Mark Hafner over at the other forum is running a Darblet between his Radiance XD and JVC RS20. His comments were:

"Results are very good in HD mode. Lifts a veil (defocus veil, but also a bit of a gray veil) and raises MTF without obvious artifacts, at lower settings."

Mark's been around a long time, has a discerning eye, and continuously upgrades his system for best performance. If he says that it can have a positive impact on the image, then I tend not to dismiss it. I'd be particularly interested in seeing if you could confirm his MTF extension claim.

One of the problems that I have with the Darblet (and I suspect Craig shares) is that it has a wide range of settings, most of which are intended to add various "effects". This can range from heavy contrast extension (making live sports 'pop'), to "just" a drop-shadow effect, for a "more 3D-like" image. This is going to tend to bias anyone who is interested in true image quality and accuracy against introducing such a device in the signal chain. Sure, there will be a handful of folks who like having a shadow 'effect', to 'add more depth'. Or boosting contrast on sports for more of a 'you are there' feel. Personally, I would not be in that group, but I would not begrudge others who were. This speaks to HogPilot's and ecrabb's comments.

However, it is possible that with it's rather unique capability of processing elements of a signal in such a way as to avoid the usual introduction of noise and artifacts, that it can restore a bit of the sharpness that is lost in the scaling process, or due to lower system MTF in certain display device (CRT, LCOS, etc.). Think of it possibly as a "pre-emphasis" type of processing, so that what comes out the end of the chain is closer to the MTF of the original signal. Of course, in this mode you'd be using very minimal amounts of processing (e.g. as umr did, with levels at 15% or less, dependent on the specific display). And you wouldn't be adding any 'pop', just 'lifting the veil'. It would NOT be a dramatic difference, though it might still be a worthwhile and appreciable one. Might. Like getting slightly better lenses, for example.

[No one would debate that getting better lenses can improve your PQ. That's because they have greater resolving power, hence higher MTF. And the total system MTF is the product of all the components in the signal chain. So whichever device in that chain has the lowest MTF is the weak link. Normally, that's the display. If it were possible to extract the data related to this contrast function, and process it in an orthogonal fashion, independent of the other aspects of the signal, one could boost the MTF to compensate for corresponding losses in the weakest link. It sounds like by working only with the luma component (which has higher S/N than the chroma), and applying a masking function which minimizes random elements (noise) while enhancing coherent data (contrast gradients) that the Darbee may be capable of doing just that.]

Two things make me think this may be possible, which is why I prefer to avoid discounting it out of hand, without actually testing it. The first is that long ago I spent several years doing professional video processing (hence my moniker here), where I extracted image frames from video recordings, and used various tools to try to turn them into something more "photograph-like". This involved things like digital convolution functions that I created in GraphicConverter, and USM in Photoshop, and a few other tools on a Mac. Whenever upscaling was involved there was always a loss of sharpness, and the goal was to recover some of that without introducing negative side-effects. I was able to get some very impressive results, though in some cases I also used temporal information (inter-frame data) to lower noise before processing. Other than that aspect though, what Darbee is doing doesn't sound too different (even the algorithms in his patent), except that his device operates in real-time. Which in itself is impressive.

The second is that Patrick (over at Lumagen) has indicated more than once that sharpening was the tough part of the image processing puzzle. Scaling can be done very cleanly, but always results in at least a bit of sharpness loss. And trying to restore that is hard without introducing artifacts that negate the process. Which is why they've always been very conservative on that front. Whereas DVDO was willing to be more aggressive with sharpening, and as a result do not have as clean a signal (ringing and EE, visible on larger screens). So the Lumagen position was not that modest resharpening was undesirable, just that it was hard to do properly.

One of the key problems I see from the commentary in the A-forum is that the more discriminating viewers are asking, "How can I get the most out of it, while still having the picture look natural?" The dilemma being, of course, that the 2 goals are diametrically opposed. In most setting ranges, the Darblet makes things look more dramatic, which is the polar opposite of natural. It's never going to look any more natural than the signal you originally started with. Smile

It's similar to the audio situation where folks will sometimes adjust the midrange controls of their receiver to boost the presence. But unless you started out with a loss in that region of the spectrum, over time it became wearing, because things were no longer in balance. It is perhaps then no accident that the Darbee processor (DVP-5000) is the Darbee Visual Presence device. A tone-control knob for the midrange.

When the Darblets show up on Amazon, I may pick one up, and would be willing to send it to Craig for him to run a battery of tests on it. Or, someone else who's not as much of a cheapskate as I am could do so now, if Craig was willing to take the time to look at it. Very Happy

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