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3D... It's working :)
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CIR Engineering




Joined: 25 Aug 2008
Posts: 4264
Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany


PostLink    Posted: Fri Sep 24, 2010 4:57 pm    Post subject: 3D... It's working :) Reply with quote


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So I have a very basic 3D system working on the G90 now. It is getting timing information from the Vsync pulse to send to the shutter glasses... but it works almost perfectly Smile

Right now this is only working on frame-sequential sent via RGBHV at 96Hz or 120Hz from my PC. However, when Lumagen releases the CRT 3D upgrade for the Radiance line, the processor will supply Bluray 3D through HDMI in frame-sequential format at either 96Hz or 120Hz. The Lumagen will decode the major 3D standards for 3D Bluray and convert them to a slightly lower resolution for CRT at these high refresh rates.

I have been talking to Moome a lot the past few days and he has been working on a similar sync extraction method as myself for the 3D shutter glasses. Either Moome or myself will be able to supply an interface that will be able to get 3D shutter glasses sync from the projector after feeding it HDMI.

Things are looking up. Now all I need is for Lumagen to come through with the CRT 3D upgrade release.

Image quality wise it is pretty decent at this point, though I hope it gets better. I do have a slight ghosting when watching 3D. However, I have the exact same amount of ghosting at any refresh rate and no matter where I set brightness or contrast on the G90. I also have the exact same ghosting on my PC CRT monitor.

This implies to me that the ghosting is not due to the decay rate of the phosphor, but is either a quality issue with the glasses I am using (they only cost $15), or is a timing issue with my sync extraction circuit. I have not built a timing delay into the circuit yet, but I plan to do so with a trimmer resistor. Once the timing is set on a given projector I think it will remain constant and never need tweaking again.

The only negative I have so far from an interface perspective is that the glasses have a 50% chance of being on the wrong frame. My circuit has no way to know which Vsync pulse is for the left or right eye, so half the time it is backwards. This is easy to realign with a manual toggle switch, but I don't have an automated way to make it happen or any idea on how to come up with one yet... anyone have an idea?

craigr

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Tim in Phoenix




Joined: 21 Oct 2006
Posts: 4378
Location: Phoenix


PostLink    Posted: Fri Sep 24, 2010 5:30 pm    Post subject: Re: 3D... It's working :) Reply with quote

CIR Engineering wrote:


This implies to me that the ghosting is not due to the decay rate of the phosphor, but is either a quality issue with the glasses I am using (they only cost $15), or is a timing issue with my sync extraction circuit. I have not built a timing delay into the circuit yet, but I plan to do so with a trimmer resistor. Once the timing is set on a gi

craigr



Trust me, it is probably the phosphor. P43 green is required for best performance, and then 60hz flicker can be a problem.


.
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CIR Engineering




Joined: 25 Aug 2008
Posts: 4264
Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany


PostLink    Posted: Fri Sep 24, 2010 5:38 pm    Post subject: Re: 3D... It's working :) Reply with quote

Tim in Phoenix wrote:
CIR Engineering wrote:


This implies to me that the ghosting is not due to the decay rate of the phosphor, but is either a quality issue with the glasses I am using (they only cost $15), or is a timing issue with my sync extraction circuit. I have not built a timing delay into the circuit yet, but I plan to do so with a trimmer resistor. Once the timing is set on a gi

craigr



Trust me, it is probably the phosphor. P43 green is required for best performance, and then 60hz flicker can be a problem.


.

Could be, but I get the same ghosting on my PC monitor that is direct view. And the ghosting does not change with respect to brightness or contrast setting in the projector or monitor. If it were the phosphor decay, turning down the contrast should reduce the ghosting but it does not. Also, ghosting will happen if there is even a slight time delay between the glasses and video and I have no timing adjustment on my current circuit so I can’t fine tune.

If we do need P43 phosphor I think 3D on CRT with shutter glasses will most likely be no good (at least with a single projector). With the shutter glasses working the image is much dimmer than 2D. The P43 has much less light output than conventional green and I think a further luma reduction will simply be too dark.

I can live with the ghosting as it is now, but the 3D doesn't look nearly as good as on the new Samsung LCD's that I have played with. Those have almost no ghosting at all.

craigr

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dvh99




Joined: 25 Dec 2009
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Location: nederland


PostLink    Posted: Fri Sep 24, 2010 5:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i havent seen any problems with 60hz, 48hz gives terrible flicker.
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CIR Engineering




Joined: 25 Aug 2008
Posts: 4264
Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany


PostLink    Posted: Fri Sep 24, 2010 5:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dvh99 wrote:
i havent seen any problems with 60hz, 48hz gives terrible flicker.

Have you looked at 3D with 60Hz though? With 3D shutter glasses you only get 30Hz for each eye and this is terrible flicker. Interestingly, with 96Hz you only get 48Hz for each eye, but I don't see the flicker like I do with 48Hz 2D (I don't like 48Hz for 2D either). With 96Hz 3D seems to be flicker free.

96Hz would be much better for us than 120Hz for several reasons... One is that with a lower refresh rate we can have a higher resolution because either way we will be running HDMI at its max bandwidth. And another is that with a lower refresh rate we should have less chance of ghosting due to phosphor decay.

craigr

_________________
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virusc




Joined: 11 Apr 2007
Posts: 317
Location: Massachusetts


PostLink    Posted: Fri Sep 24, 2010 5:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

96hz with 48 to each eye is different than 48hz in relation to flicker I would think due to the phosphor having little to no complete decay (black) between frames and the slight smear helps transition more smoothly.
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CIR Engineering




Joined: 25 Aug 2008
Posts: 4264
Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany


PostLink    Posted: Fri Sep 24, 2010 5:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

virusc wrote:
96hz with 48 to each eye is different than 48hz in relation to flicker I would think due to the phosphor having little to no complete decay (black) between frames and the slight smear helps transition more smoothly.

My thoughts exactly Wink

I am just pleased that 96Hz seems equal in performance to 120Hz.

craigr

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*NEW Light Illusion ColourSpace XPT Version β Color Calibration Software
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dvh99




Joined: 25 Dec 2009
Posts: 2158
Location: nederland


PostLink    Posted: Fri Sep 24, 2010 6:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

if the image is "smeared" then pq decreases with increasing refresh rate, this might be the reason why 96hz is the standard.

will regular polarized glasses work?

if i finish my addon vim (still need some ad834s Sad ) i will make a profile under powerstrip for 96hz and 120 hz at 1080p.
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perisoft




Joined: 29 Aug 2007
Posts: 2920
Location: Ithaca, NY


PostLink    Posted: Fri Sep 24, 2010 6:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What about running interlaced, with R/L running on the odd/even scanlines? At first blush you'd think you'd lose half the vertical res, but I'm not really sure it would look like that...
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CIR Engineering




Joined: 25 Aug 2008
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Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany


PostLink    Posted: Fri Sep 24, 2010 8:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dvh99 wrote:
if the image is "smeared" then pq decreases with increasing refresh rate, this might be the reason why 96hz is the standard.

will regular polarized glasses work?

if i finish my addon vim (still need some ad834s Sad ) i will make a profile under powerstrip for 96hz and 120 hz at 1080p.

Unless you have a polarizing lens system and a polarized screen you need shutter glasses.

CRT polarizer:
http://www.stereo3d.com/projection.htm#3dtv

craigr

_________________
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JETI 1211 Spectroradiometer
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*NEW Light Illusion ColourSpace XPT Version β Color Calibration Software
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CIR Engineering




Joined: 25 Aug 2008
Posts: 4264
Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany


PostLink    Posted: Fri Sep 24, 2010 8:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

perisoft wrote:
What about running interlaced, with R/L running on the odd/even scanlines? At first blush you'd think you'd lose half the vertical res, but I'm not really sure it would look like that...

It's being considered... however data suggests that this is not a good way to do it. Moome wants to try 1080i 144Hz but his HTPC can't do it. The Lumagen PLUS models have the bandwidth for 1080i 144Hz and can output 1080i 144Hz as far as I know. However, the Lumagen would have to convert the 3D source (presumably frame packed) to frame stacked, and right now they are going to concentrate on PROGRESSIVE for CRT if they ever manage to get to CRT 3D at all.

craigr

_________________
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JETI 1211 Spectroradiometer
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X-Rite i1Pro2 Spectroradiometer & Spyder Colorimeters *For JVC auto-calibration when Klein & Jeti are not applicable
Murideo Fresco SIX-G HDMI 2.x Multimedia Generator
Murideo Fresco SIX-A HDMI 2.x Analyzer
*NEW Light Illusion ColourSpace XPT Version β Color Calibration Software
Light Illusion LightSpace XPT Pro Version 10.x Color Calibration Software
*NEW OMARDRIS JVC Software Patch to use K10-A and Jeti with JVC OEM AutoCal Software!
Sencore CR7000 CRT Tube Analyzer / Rejuvenater
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www.CIR-Engineering.com - craigr@cir-engineering.com
Phone: 865-405-6892
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Tim in Phoenix




Joined: 21 Oct 2006
Posts: 4378
Location: Phoenix


PostLink    Posted: Fri Sep 24, 2010 10:11 pm    Post subject: Re: 3D... It's working :) Reply with quote

CIR Engineering wrote:

The only negative I have so far from an interface perspective is that the glasses have a 50% chance of being on the wrong frame. My circuit has no way to know which Vsync pulse is for the left or right eye, so half the time it is backwards. This is easy to realign with a manual toggle switch, but I don't have an automated way to make it happen or any idea on how to come up with one yet... anyone have an idea?

craigr


Try a v sync delay in the 50 or 60 millisecond range, that should output every other v pulse, better than random.


.
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CIR Engineering




Joined: 25 Aug 2008
Posts: 4264
Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany


PostLink    Posted: Fri Sep 24, 2010 10:46 pm    Post subject: Re: 3D... It's working :) Reply with quote

Tim in Phoenix wrote:
CIR Engineering wrote:

The only negative I have so far from an interface perspective is that the glasses have a 50% chance of being on the wrong frame. My circuit has no way to know which Vsync pulse is for the left or right eye, so half the time it is backwards. This is easy to realign with a manual toggle switch, but I don't have an automated way to make it happen or any idea on how to come up with one yet... anyone have an idea?

craigr


Try a v sync delay in the 50 or 60 millisecond range, that should output every other v pulse, better than random.


.

I'm not sure I follow Tim? I need every Vsync pulse. The problem is that the interface has no way to distinguish between the left eye V pulse or the right eye V pulse because they look exactly the same in analog. So the shutters wind up in reverse polarity half the time (50% chance).

The trigger output on the Radiance will be matched to the correct frame for each eye. So when and if the Radiance supports 3D CRT the XE and XD will not have this problem. The reverse shutter issue will come into play only if you want to run the XS processor (or a HTPC) with 3D because it does not have a trigger output.

I just talked to Patrick and Jim at Lumagen for a while and they are more optimistic about 3D CRT after my findings Smile For them to output frame-sequential 3D at 96Hz Patrick thinks will be pretty straight forward. So the Radiance will convert the primary 3D standards including frame-packed, side-by-side, and over-under all to frame-sequential.

The other cool thing is that the Radiance PLUS might have enough bandwidth to actually run full 1080p 96Hz for 3D. Jim says he will let me test it when they are ready. When I worked with them on the PLUS option I ran the processor near 200MHz for about a half hour with no video distortion on the screen.

craigr

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beun




Joined: 28 Jun 2006
Posts: 676



PostLink    Posted: Fri Sep 24, 2010 11:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In progressive video there is really no way to distinguish one frame from another. You would need to have other information like a special code on one of the invisible lines on top.
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CIR Engineering




Joined: 25 Aug 2008
Posts: 4264
Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany


PostLink    Posted: Sat Sep 25, 2010 1:58 am    Post subject: Re: 3D... It's working :) Reply with quote

Tim in Phoenix wrote:
CIR Engineering wrote:

This implies to me that the ghosting is not due to the decay rate of the phosphor, but is either a quality issue with the glasses I am using (they only cost $15), or is a timing issue with my sync extraction circuit. I have not built a timing delay into the circuit yet, but I plan to do so with a trimmer resistor. Once the timing is set on a gi

craigr

Trust me, it is probably the phosphor. P43 green is required for best performance, and then 60hz flicker can be a problem.


Well, I think you are right Tim. I tried an experiment. I muted green during playback and the magenta only image does not seem to have ghosting.

craigr

_________________
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Murideo Fresco SIX-G HDMI 2.x Multimedia Generator
Murideo Fresco SIX-A HDMI 2.x Analyzer
*NEW Light Illusion ColourSpace XPT Version β Color Calibration Software
Light Illusion LightSpace XPT Pro Version 10.x Color Calibration Software
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Phone: 865-405-6892
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Curt Palme
CRT Tech



Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 24293
Location: Langley, BC

TV/Projector: All of them!


PostLink    Posted: Sat Sep 25, 2010 2:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Let us see! Post a 3D picture!


Oh.... wait....Wink

Congrats, sounds like a fun experiment!
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David_Web




Joined: 02 May 2007
Posts: 418
Location: Sweden


PostLink    Posted: Sat Sep 25, 2010 9:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What if you tweak the timing to switch eyes just before it starts to draw the next frame?
Maybe adding a little extra porch.

A slower refresh rate would restrict the ghosting to only the bottom of the screen.
Maybe the glasses are just to slow in switching to allow the top part of the next frame to bleed though while allowing the bottom tail to ghost. Giving a full frame ghosting.

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the_maniac




Joined: 10 Jul 2009
Posts: 111
Location: Austria - Europe


PostLink    Posted: Sat Sep 25, 2010 1:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

which shutter glasses are you using ?
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CIR Engineering




Joined: 25 Aug 2008
Posts: 4264
Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany


PostLink    Posted: Sat Sep 25, 2010 4:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Curt Palme wrote:
Let us see! Post a 3D picture!


Oh.... wait....Wink

Congrats, sounds like a fun experiment!

I am having a blast. Typically though, I went to show my wife last night and the thing just would not work at all. It worked perfectly for 36 hours and then the second I try and show my wife it stops working. I start tinkering and she says, "are you going to be messing with this for much longer." Smile

craigr

_________________
*NEW JETI 1501-HiRes 2nm Spectroradiometer
JETI 1211 Spectroradiometer
Photo Research PR-650 Spectroradiometer
Klein K10-A Colorimeter
X-Rite i1Pro2 Spectroradiometer & Spyder Colorimeters *For JVC auto-calibration when Klein & Jeti are not applicable
Murideo Fresco SIX-G HDMI 2.x Multimedia Generator
Murideo Fresco SIX-A HDMI 2.x Analyzer
*NEW Light Illusion ColourSpace XPT Version β Color Calibration Software
Light Illusion LightSpace XPT Pro Version 10.x Color Calibration Software
*NEW OMARDRIS JVC Software Patch to use K10-A and Jeti with JVC OEM AutoCal Software!
Sencore CR7000 CRT Tube Analyzer / Rejuvenater
Authorized Dealer for Lumagen & just about everything worth buying Wink
www.CIR-Engineering.com - craigr@cir-engineering.com
Phone: 865-405-6892
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CIR Engineering




Joined: 25 Aug 2008
Posts: 4264
Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany


PostLink    Posted: Sat Sep 25, 2010 4:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

David_Web wrote:
What if you tweak the timing to switch eyes just before it starts to draw the next frame?
Maybe adding a little extra porch.

I am thinking about doing just that. However, I don't ever want a situation to occur where both eyes are shut at the same time for any amount of time. I am hoping that the delay circuit will help with the ghosting...

David_Web wrote:

A slower refresh rate would restrict the ghosting to only the bottom of the screen.
Maybe the glasses are just to slow in switching to allow the top part of the next frame to bleed though while allowing the bottom tail to ghost. Giving a full frame ghosting.

Exactly. Refresh rate does not seem to impact the amount of ghosting at all. 96Hz and 120Hz appear to me to have the same ghosting.

But I can't discount that my experiment with magenta only does not seem to have any ghosting. This implies a problem with green only and does not indicate a timing problem.

craigr

_________________
*NEW JETI 1501-HiRes 2nm Spectroradiometer
JETI 1211 Spectroradiometer
Photo Research PR-650 Spectroradiometer
Klein K10-A Colorimeter
X-Rite i1Pro2 Spectroradiometer & Spyder Colorimeters *For JVC auto-calibration when Klein & Jeti are not applicable
Murideo Fresco SIX-G HDMI 2.x Multimedia Generator
Murideo Fresco SIX-A HDMI 2.x Analyzer
*NEW Light Illusion ColourSpace XPT Version β Color Calibration Software
Light Illusion LightSpace XPT Pro Version 10.x Color Calibration Software
*NEW OMARDRIS JVC Software Patch to use K10-A and Jeti with JVC OEM AutoCal Software!
Sencore CR7000 CRT Tube Analyzer / Rejuvenater
Authorized Dealer for Lumagen & just about everything worth buying Wink
www.CIR-Engineering.com - craigr@cir-engineering.com
Phone: 865-405-6892
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