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mp20748
Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 5681
Location: Maryland
TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM
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 Link Posted: Mon Sep 06, 2010 12:54 pm Post subject: How to get more H WIDTH out of Marquee (1080P) |
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And at the same time, also solve that dreaded ringing issue on the left side of the screen when running 1080P (60/72hz)..
I've been testing and running these changes for the past five months. In my testing the projector is left on for a many of hours, and at times for days - so it's well tested.
I'll let you guys figure this out. In the first picture below I'm showing my 9500LC projected on an 8' wide screen. The scan rate is 1920X1080P 72hz/ - the following two pictures shows two areas of my HDM...
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HK-Steve
Joined: 15 Jul 2006
Posts: 849
Location: Switzerland
TV/Projector: Marquee 9500, Epson 8100
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| Link Posted: Mon Sep 06, 2010 1:14 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks for posting Mike,
Why do you think that the coils are creating this issue?
Inductance problem?
The ferrite core??
Great to see it was a simple fix.
Cheers
Steve
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dvh99
Joined: 25 Dec 2009
Posts: 2158
Location: nederland
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| Link Posted: Mon Sep 06, 2010 1:18 pm Post subject: |
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mike are you trying to get the hor width of the raster beyond the tubes edges to a degree that the backporch falls mostly outside and the active image starts just after the edge of the tube?
btw i saw some ringing in your screenshots.
my settings with powerstrip (unfortunately no radiance xs+) are:
hor
active 1920
front : 86
sync width: 56
back porch: 246
total : 2308
vert refresh rate 71.994hz
scan rate: 80.994.
this gives me no ringing.
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marquee 9500ultra HD10L moome hdmi1.3 v3+ some mods.
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mp20748
Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 5681
Location: Maryland
TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM
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| Link Posted: Mon Sep 06, 2010 1:56 pm Post subject: |
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| dvh99 wrote: | | mike are you trying to get the hor width of the raster beyond the tubes edges to a degree that the backporch falls mostly outside and the active image starts just after the edge of the tube? |
No, I'm simple increasing the width. Whatever was on the screen prior, is just sized out with the H size adjustment. It doee not effect any porches at all, only WIDTH.
| Quote: | | btw i saw some ringing in your screenshots |
That is there because it was a serious problem on the HDM before the changes at almost any scan rate. The changes greatly decreased it, and if you knew how bad it looked before the changes, you'll understand in comparison what a great change it has even made a HDM that had a huge ringing problem
| Quote: | my settings with powerstrip (unfortunately no radiance xs+) are:
hor
active 1920
front : 86
sync width: 56
back porch: 246
total : 2308
vert refresh rate 71.994hz
scan rate: 80.994.
this gives me no ringing. |
I don't do HTPS's. I know you can go into powerstrip and get around this, but I'd rather look at doing something about this in the projector.
However, the ringing problem is not the capture of the thread. being able to get extra sizing for a lot of Marquees running at Full 1080P was somewhat of a problem. And to be able to fill your screen without pushing your deflection circuit as hard, makes for a cooler running HDM.
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tse
Joined: 03 May 2006
Posts: 1014
Location: Sweatbucket, Fl.
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| Link Posted: Mon Sep 06, 2010 1:59 pm Post subject: |
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From what I have seen the ringing is caused by the resonance of the interwinding capacitance of the horizontal deflection yoke and any series inductance. That includes the wires connecting the HDM and the yokes. You should see how bad the ringing gets when you make the wires longer. Making those wires shorter might help even more, though there is not much that can be done. Making them different lengths might make the ringing less noticable.
Scott
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dvh99
Joined: 25 Dec 2009
Posts: 2158
Location: nederland
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| Link Posted: Mon Sep 06, 2010 2:08 pm Post subject: |
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yeah scott i was thinking about the wires too and maybe use silver cables with a bigger diameter and keep them as short as possible to each tube, but this is something i will play with later on.
mike i must say that my hor width is somewhere around 92 or so to fill the entire tube but despite the setting in the pj it looks to me the hdm still has to sweep a certain width on the raster regardless of the value.
i might be completely wrong of course so if i am correct me.
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1 answer always poses multiple questions.
marquee 9500ultra HD10L moome hdmi1.3 v3+ some mods.
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mp20748
Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 5681
Location: Maryland
TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM
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| Link Posted: Mon Sep 06, 2010 2:27 pm Post subject: |
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| dvh99 wrote: |
mike i must say that my hor width is somewhere around 92 or so to fill the entire tube but despite the setting in the pj it looks to me the hdm still has to sweep a certain width on the raster regardless of the value.
i might be completely wrong of course so if i am correct me. |
No, I won't say you're wrong. I'd rather say that the Marquee has always had a problem with width at FULL 1080P. Not a problem on everyone of them, but it has been a problem. So much so that you had to put the jumper on the HDM to extend the width.
Oh, and removing that coil, it greatly reduced the ringing. Ringing is usually associated with both wiring and inductance.
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David_Web
Joined: 02 May 2007
Posts: 418
Location: Sweden
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| Link Posted: Mon Sep 06, 2010 2:56 pm Post subject: |
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Is there any advantage or disadvantage doing this even if you don't need extra h-size?
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Nashou66
Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16171
Location: West Seneca NY
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draganm
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 8990
Location: Colorado
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| Link Posted: Mon Sep 06, 2010 5:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Nashou66 wrote: | Not sure David but the coils are used for different frequencies. Not sure what would happen if you use 480i with that coil removed, hopefully not POOF, snap or Crack!!!
Athanasios |
yeah that's what I would like to know too. On the one hand who gives 2-shits about 480i but on the other if someone accidentally fed the PJ 480i what would happen? Perspiring minds want to know.
normally I never even adjust those coils and only match raster width's at higher frequencies. Those coils, like synch on Green in the VIM, are like dinosaur bones in the Marquee. totally useless for today's applications.
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Nashou66
Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16171
Location: West Seneca NY
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mp20748
Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 5681
Location: Maryland
TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM
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| Link Posted: Mon Sep 06, 2010 5:35 pm Post subject: |
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| draganm wrote: | | Nashou66 wrote: | Not sure David but the coils are used for different frequencies. Not sure what would happen if you use 480i with that coil removed, hopefully not POOF, snap or Crack!!!
Athanasios |
yeah that's what I would like to know too. On the one hand who gives 2-shits about 480i but on the other if someone accidentally fed the PJ 480i what would happen? Perspiring minds want to know.
normally I never even adjust those coils and only match raster width's at higher frequencies. Those coils, like synch on Green in the VIM, are like dinosaur bones in the Marquee. totally useless for today's applications. |
Everything including 31 khz has been tested. Both high and low bands. And you are 100% correct in their usefulness today.
The low band coils are still in place, so nothing changes with the low band.
The original purpose of those coils was to allow for precise width alignment of each color. For the high band alignment, you need to input a signal between 60 and 65khz - remove all dynamic convergence (conv - 1 -2 exit exit) which only effects the present frequency. from there adjust all three high band slugs to the top, then adjust each to match each other in the tubes.......which has always been a complete waste of time with very little end results, at least to me.
Now on my HDM with the coils removed, I've yet to find a reason to adjust the width. Much like how it is on all other CRT projectors. To me, if the width was slightly off, it was corrected in convergence.
The coils were not a problem before 1920x1080P 60hz up. That scan rate caused a problem of both ringing and width. removing those coils makes things better for width and ringing.
Plus, the HDM runs cooler...
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Nashou66
Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16171
Location: West Seneca NY
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dturco
Joined: 06 Feb 2009
Posts: 3779
Location: Eastern Shore Maryland
TV/Projector: Runco DLP VX-3000i Marquee 9500 parts doner
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| Link Posted: Mon Sep 06, 2010 5:49 pm Post subject: |
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I can tell you that with all of the coils broken off and dangling, there is no effect on the picture. Remember when I dropped my HDM ? It still worked fine, but I bought another just to make me feel good.
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Ile
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 1491
Location: Jyväskylä, Finland
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| Link Posted: Mon Sep 06, 2010 5:53 pm Post subject: |
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All Barcos have width coils for similar purpose...
Who want to test what happen? 
I can't right now, all my barcos are still in carage.
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mp20748
Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 5681
Location: Maryland
TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM
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| Link Posted: Mon Sep 06, 2010 6:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Ile wrote: | All Barcos have width coils for similar purpose...
Who want to test what happen?
I can't right now, all my barcos are still in carage. |
Dang, I forgot about the Barcos. And that again explains why they have such a ringing problem on the left of the screen. It's even on the 909's that I service that's running very high scan rates.
Also, you cannot remove the relays. They are a must, because the scan yokes needs to operate different from high to low band. High band puts the dual horizontal yokes in parallel. That's not required for low band.
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draganm
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 8990
Location: Colorado
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| Link Posted: Mon Sep 06, 2010 6:05 pm Post subject: |
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oh, the the red tipped low band coils are still there! I just automatically assumed they were were the ones removed.
I wonder if having the CVA do the extra work is a problem or not? I know it can be very tube/coil dependent. On some machines you don't need to do much but on others tweaking the coils really makes Convergence line up much easier.
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mp20748
Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 5681
Location: Maryland
TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM
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| Link Posted: Mon Sep 06, 2010 6:35 pm Post subject: |
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It's really not that bad on a Marquee once you remove the coils (L420,L400, L410). The coils really never did much, not like on the barcos.
Once you zero out the dynamic convergence, and center the image in the tubes, you'll notice that convergence grid is either wider on one end and smaller on the other. So you'll have to do some tugging on one end or the other.
The width once you zero out things should be about the same. The coils on a Marquee really don't help that much if it's really off. You'll have to correct using convergence just like what you have to do even with the coils still in place.
I'm not having any convergence or width issues. The vertical grid lines align up on top of each other perfectly.
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Nashou66
Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16171
Location: West Seneca NY
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| Link Posted: Mon Sep 06, 2010 6:37 pm Post subject: |
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| mp20748 wrote: |
Also, you cannot remove the relays. They are a must, because the scan yokes needs to operate different from high to low band. High band puts the dual horizontal yokes in parallel. That's not required for low band. |
Exactly, If the width coils are removed then you wouldn't even need to switch them in or out right?
What you said is redundant sounding to me. Remove a coil but then you can't remove the relay that switches it in since you need to run in both bands, but its NOT there anymore? Which is which? And i know there are two sweep coils on the yoke but you tied them in with that jumper wire. So couldn't you remove the relays but somehow keep the circuit in play at all time as you do now. Or is there a signal sensor somewhere that tells the DPB what to do?
Athanasios
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David_Web
Joined: 02 May 2007
Posts: 418
Location: Sweden
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| Link Posted: Mon Sep 06, 2010 8:33 pm Post subject: |
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Running the yokes in parallel at all times would most likely trip the over current protection at lower scanrate (as it starts up) leading to no HV.
Just a guess though.
So there is no reason to remove the coil if you jumper it?
Might give it a try some time. Very reverseable as you just cut the jumper then.
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