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Person99
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4901
Location: Flower Mound, TX
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 Link Posted: Wed Jul 14, 2010 9:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Mark_A_W wrote: | | Like I said, absolute black level was the only flaw I could see (oh, I saw the iris move once). |
Much as I love ya Mark, I think this is still over hyped. With my CRT I tried every gamma curve mod out there (Kim's, tweaking low levels with my Lumagen, etc) and the CRT can never get perfect. If you want that inky black with a CRT you are going to HAVE to crush and kill some shadow details. It is the simple physics of the way they work.
So, with a CRT you can choose less shadow detail and inky blacks, or blacks about as good as decent digitals with shadow details close to the digitals.
This absolute black is way too overhyped, and most people that have it (I never did because I like shadow detail) have crushed the ever loving sh!t out of black.
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Dave
A train station is where the train stops. A bus station is where the bus stops. On my desk, I have a work station....
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Spanky Ham
Joined: 22 Mar 2006
Posts: 5643
Location: Comedy Central
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| Link Posted: Thu Jul 15, 2010 1:01 am Post subject: |
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| Person99 wrote: | | winduptoy wrote: | | I'm with Bob & sticking with the CRT for the forseeable future. I'm happy with the picture I'm getting, and I have yet to see a digital display that comes close producing an image with the visceral impact that a well set up LC machine can deliver, blacks, gamma and color accuracy in particular. |
You have obviously not seen many of the current crop of decent digitals. I had one of the best 8" LC machines ever made (Zenith Pro 1200x), and all things being considered, there are many digitals that spank it all around.
Remember, Bob is not a neutral observer. Bob makes money doing calibrations, CRT calibrations take longer, Bob makes more money calibrating CRTs than digitals, Bob wants lots of CRTs in the world. Hmmmm.
Your screen shots are WAAAY too soft for me. I've become used to my on screen images being as sharp as real life. |
No way, you mean Bob didn't spam multiple forums out of the goodness of his heart. 
Actually, I do believe Bob truly believes what he is saying even though he is far from unbiased. I am curious what his honest opinion would be if he sat down and viewed a calibrated JVC.
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Spanky Ham
Joined: 22 Mar 2006
Posts: 5643
Location: Comedy Central
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| Link Posted: Thu Jul 15, 2010 1:13 am Post subject: |
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| Person99 wrote: | | Mark_A_W wrote: | | Like I said, absolute black level was the only flaw I could see (oh, I saw the iris move once). |
Much as I love ya Mark, I think this is still over hyped. With my CRT I tried every gamma curve mod out there (Kim's, tweaking low levels with my Lumagen, etc) and the CRT can never get perfect. If you want that inky black with a CRT you are going to HAVE to crush and kill some shadow details. It is the simple physics of the way they work.
So, with a CRT you can choose less shadow detail and inky blacks, or blacks about as good as decent digitals with shadow details close to the digitals.
This absolute black is way too overhyped, and most people that have it (I never did because I like shadow detail) have crushed the ever loving sh!t out of black. |
You may be right, but I do love the look of having absolute black even though it means crushing 1-5. I would be curious how many CRT lovers would switch if they could get a JVC cheap after seeing a demo. It looks like Energeezer just switched. The JVCs let me forget about on/off and just enjoy the picture.
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mp20748
Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 5681
Location: Maryland
TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM
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| Link Posted: Thu Jul 15, 2010 2:27 am Post subject: |
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| Person99 wrote: |
Much as I love ya Mark, I think this is still over hyped. With my CRT I tried every gamma curve mod out there (Kim's, tweaking low levels with my Lumagen, etc) and the CRT can never get perfect. If you want that inky black with a CRT you are going to HAVE to crush and kill some shadow details. It is the simple physics of the way they work
Wow, why do you still base everything CRT on the CRT setup that you owned?
The Moome cards latest version to include the later gamma circuit that he he's using now, and even the a better CRT projector than an 8" Barco is more of a reason to not make such claims.
And on my setup using the latest Radiance and Craig's settings, I'm not having any problems with shadow detail at all. But of course this is an entirely different setup than what you base your CRT reference on.
[b]So, with a CRT you can choose less shadow detail and inky blacks, or blacks about as good as decent digitals with shadow details close to the digitals.
This absolute black is way too overhyped, and most people that have it (I never did because I like shadow detail) have crushed the ever loving sh!t out of black. |
I'm curious as to what the hype is about the GREAT shadow detail and low end performance from these latest digitals, when I'm working on systems that has the latest high end commercial digitals, and every expert in the commercial field, regardless of the make and model, be it Sony 4K, Christies best, Barco's best to include the well hyped Top DPI HD Titan will disagree with your low end claims.
The low end on every digital with the exception of LED is still TOO BRIGHT in commercial and super High End systems. So maybe what's thoughts of as shadow detail is simply too much light.
I get to see these projectors in very expensive Stereo and 3D systems that some are using special Super Computers called NODES, and some are using ram as high as 60gigs for super rendering with multiple $5000.00 Nvidia video cards.
I can go on and on mentioning the equipment and cost, because these systems were designed for the absolute best in video performance with low end being crucial because of the applications. And in every application and event, the virtue over CRT is the same: SHARPNESS and BRIGHTNESS. The low end still SUCKs!
So I'll have to look at some of these later model inexpensive consumer digitals to understand what the hype is about. I'd like to see for myself, and maybe that would convince me that it's more than a few people who's really excited about brightness and sharpness and may not even understand that the entire low end of digital technology is still not there, and it's more than an on/off of thing.
All that's required to really understand the low end problem on a digital is when you see one in a rear screen setup... the room is painted completely black to dampen light spill, with instrument lights or light reflections not being behind the screen. It's only then that you really get to see how broken digitals still are, because there's no way to get rid of the extra light that's NOT in the source. A real pain in the butt, and a hard thing to understand, considering how far digitals have come.
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Spanky Ham
Joined: 22 Mar 2006
Posts: 5643
Location: Comedy Central
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| Link Posted: Thu Jul 15, 2010 3:18 am Post subject: |
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Mike,
The problem with commercial is as you mention lack of on/off in favor of sharpness and brightness. The HT market has different priorities although they do align somewhat. You should see a JVC pj and then decide if digital on/off is good enough.
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mp20748
Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 5681
Location: Maryland
TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM
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garyfritz
Joined: 08 Apr 2006
Posts: 12026
Location: Fort Collins, CO
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| Link Posted: Thu Jul 15, 2010 4:39 am Post subject: |
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| Person99 wrote: | | This absolute black is way too overhyped, and most people that have it (I never did because I like shadow detail) have crushed the ever loving sh!t out of black. |
I gotta agree 100% with Dave here. (Damn I hate when that happens  )
I've calibrated my 8500 a dozen times with two different colorimeters. I've set the gamma properly at 2.2, and I've tried it at lower gamma levels so the low end is brighter. I've got a gamma booster (== lower gamma) in my Moome box. I always end up nowhere near "fade to black" because if I do, it crushes the crap out of low IREs and the whole image looks too dark. That's the way it looks on my 8500, and that's the way it looked on my G70, my Dwin, and my XG.
I'd much rather have a good vibrant image for the 98% of the movie that isn't black, and accept a non-FTB calibration, than every minute of every movie thinking "damn that image is way too dark, I can't see anything."
When I eventually make the shift to digital, they may have the perfect blacks worked out by then. But if they don't I won't care, because in MY theater at least, I've never liked full FTB anyway. Burn me as a heretic but that's how I see it in my HT.
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WanMan
Joined: 19 Mar 2006
Posts: 10273
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| Link Posted: Thu Jul 15, 2010 9:34 am Post subject: |
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Considering what the costs are to get into 1080P on CRT from source to projection with an ease that even the significant other can use makes continuing with CRT a financial challenge. I'm guessing this is why many CRTers are being spotted these days buying digitals. And while the entry-level digitals are not worth the salt, they do represent a challenge for the almighty dollar.
Those that calibrate for a living must find it difficult to stay alive.
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Trust no one. Absolutely no one. Advice of the board.
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ecrabb
Forum Moderator
Joined: 13 Mar 2006
Posts: 15909
Location: Utah
TV/Projector: JVC RS40, Epson 5010
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| Link Posted: Thu Jul 15, 2010 3:14 pm Post subject: |
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| WanMan wrote: | | Considering what the costs are to get into 1080P on CRT from source to projection with an ease that even the significant other can use makes continuing with CRT a financial challenge. |
Huh? How so? When you've already spent thousands on amplifiers and speakers alone, how is $300 for an HD Fury 3 or Moome card a "financial challenge"?
I guess since you have an XG, you'll need to either run 1080i, or get a scaler, but what's a used scaler, a few hundred bucks? So, call it $500 to use the CRT you have vs. spending $3000 on a new LCoS or SXRD projector... I'm not quite seeing where the financial challenge is.
SC
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ecrabb
Forum Moderator
Joined: 13 Mar 2006
Posts: 15909
Location: Utah
TV/Projector: JVC RS40, Epson 5010
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| Link Posted: Thu Jul 15, 2010 6:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Spanky Ham wrote: | | Person99 wrote: | | winduptoy wrote: | | I'm with Bob & sticking with the CRT for the forseeable future. I'm happy with the picture I'm getting, and I have yet to see a digital display that comes close producing an image with the visceral impact that a well set up LC machine can deliver, blacks, gamma and color accuracy in particular. |
You have obviously not seen many of the current crop of decent digitals. I had one of the best 8" LC machines ever made (Zenith Pro 1200x), and all things being considered, there are many digitals that spank it all around.
Remember, Bob is not a neutral observer. Bob makes money doing calibrations, CRT calibrations take longer, Bob makes more money calibrating CRTs than digitals, Bob wants lots of CRTs in the world. Hmmmm. |
No way, you mean Bob didn't spam multiple forums out of the goodness of his heart.
Actually, I do believe Bob truly believes what he is saying even though he is far from unbiased. I am curious what his honest opinion would be if he sat down and viewed a calibrated JVC. |
Oh, and I'd also like to point out that while Bob may not be a neutral observer, neither are the plethora of sales people pushing NEW projectors. I don't see Bob's post as so much proactive CRT evangelizing to support his calibration business, but as more of a response to the digital pushers that want to push new equipment, regardless of how good something is that somebody already has. We've all heard the stories about guys yanking out a perfectly good G90 or whatever because when he went to a dealer asking about installing Blu-ray or some other HD source, the dealer told him his projector was obsolete and he needed to replace it something new that supported HDMI.
So, while the "non-neutral observer" thing is happening on both sides, I see Bob's position as more of a response to an existing condition... While there are certainly performance gains to be had in certain areas, the idea that nobody needs to replace a perfectly good working CRT, and could continue to watch the latest formats in a very high-quality manner is a perfectly valid viewpoint. Maybe I'm mistaken, but it seems like that's all Bob is really suggesting.
SC
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Person99
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4901
Location: Flower Mound, TX
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| Link Posted: Thu Jul 15, 2010 6:12 pm Post subject: |
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Mike,
Spanky is right. Commercial grade projectors go for brightness over blacks. And remember, they are replacing film projectors which don't do a great black in the first place. Film has about 2000:1 on/off best case with far less than 1500:1 (around 1000:1) being typical in theaters.
The Sony 4K commercial projectors in my local theater are brighter (over 16000 lumens--the new Sony is 21000) than film and have a CR better than film (the new Sonys are 3000:1).
My DLP with no DI does better blacks than that Sony. A JVC will blow it out of the water. Commercial projectors have been targetted as replacing film and prioritizing brightness, they are far different beasts than the good home theater projectors.
_________________
Dave
A train station is where the train stops. A bus station is where the bus stops. On my desk, I have a work station....
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Spanky Ham
Joined: 22 Mar 2006
Posts: 5643
Location: Comedy Central
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| Link Posted: Thu Jul 15, 2010 6:16 pm Post subject: |
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Crabb,
You may need to reread his original post when he said going digital is a downgrade. At worst, it is a side-grade at this point. For many, it would be an upgrade. Also, Bob didn't mention tube condition, set hours, etc.. A brand new JVC might look better to a lot of people than a G90 with 10k hours on the tubes. Finally, he mentions to get it calibrated by him to get you to that better than digital look.
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Person99
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4901
Location: Flower Mound, TX
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| Link Posted: Thu Jul 15, 2010 6:19 pm Post subject: |
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SC, I agree that if you are happy with what you have, stick with it and don't spend money. Not only does no one "needs" to replace a working CRT, no one "needs" a projector in the first place!
However, Bob's argument did not seem like the "hey, what you got works, is decent, and you should be happy with it". It seemed much more like a misleading "CRTs are still better than digital". And really, that claim is just plain rediculous. The current crop of reasonably priced digis blow away over 90% of the CRTs anyone has in their house and 99% of people will be able to get a better image out of them then they have from their CRT. It is this BS claim to which I object.
I can only tell you that for the fairly modest investment I made, my family's (and visiting friends) viewing enjoyment has gone up significantly from the CRT to the current digi set up, and my digi is not the latest and greatest.
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Dave
A train station is where the train stops. A bus station is where the bus stops. On my desk, I have a work station....
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ecrabb
Forum Moderator
Joined: 13 Mar 2006
Posts: 15909
Location: Utah
TV/Projector: JVC RS40, Epson 5010
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| Link Posted: Thu Jul 15, 2010 6:38 pm Post subject: |
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Fair enough, guys... Rereading his post, there was a little hyperbole there in the "downgrade" comment and a couple others. But, I still say the spirit of his post was to try inform guys that many CRT's are perfectly capable of displaying a great HD image, and that for many people, it makes no sense to tear out a perfectly good working projector and replace it with a digital.
Dave, is it a bit of an exaggeration to say your family's viewing enjoyment has "gone up significantly" from your old CRT setup? Why? Just because the image is a little bigger and brighter? Come on, aren't we exaggerating a little? Your wife and kids don't really give two shits if the ANSI is a little better and image is a little brighter. The bigger, brighter screen I can see, but otherwise it's you who cares about it a whole lot more than anybody else... The family would have fun and enjoy it regardless of what projector you were using.
Personally, I'm getting a GREAT image from my G70 - I'm thrilled with it. Considering what I could sell it for, and what it would cost to replace it with something I'd enjoy watching, I'm still sitting tight - probably for at least a year or so - maybe a bit longer. But, no question there's probably an LCoS or SXRD projector in my future. I've spent a bit of time watching only a pseudo-calibrated RS2, and I could certainly live with it. But, it ain't in the family budget to buy a $2000-3000 projector right now, and I can't see just giving away the G70 for half or a third of what I paid for it just a few years ago (and I got it crazy cheap!).
Cheers,
SC
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Spanky Ham
Joined: 22 Mar 2006
Posts: 5643
Location: Comedy Central
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| Link Posted: Thu Jul 15, 2010 8:07 pm Post subject: |
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Crabb,
I understand what you are saying, but having read Bob's posts for awhile I think his passion is overshadowed by his marketing.
As for keeping the G70, I totally agree. I still have mine and will only sell if I get a good offer or I can't set them up anytime soon. I recently stopped by Kiev's place to see his G70 rear pro and was impressed. It had me chomping at the bit to get mine up and running.
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mp20748
Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 5681
Location: Maryland
TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM
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| Link Posted: Thu Jul 15, 2010 8:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Spanky Ham wrote: | Crabb,
I understand what you are saying, but having read Bob's posts for awhile I think his passion is overshadowed by his marketing.
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Hey, but what gets me is that Bob posted his passion and belief from his perspective. Therefore the only people I'm having a problem with here is those trying to shoot down what he posted and at the same time boasting about how great digitals really are..
Is it really fair to shoot him down for giving his perspective on things?
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Person99
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4901
Location: Flower Mound, TX
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| Link Posted: Thu Jul 15, 2010 8:37 pm Post subject: |
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| mp20748 wrote: | | Spanky Ham wrote: | Crabb,
I understand what you are saying, but having read Bob's posts for awhile I think his passion is overshadowed by his marketing.
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Hey, but what gets me is that Bob posted his passion and belief from his perspective. Therefore the only people I'm having a problem with here is those trying to shoot down what he posted and at the same time boasting about how great digitals really are..
Is it really fair to shoot him down for giving his perspective on things? |
Mike,
His perspective is fine, but it is not presented that way.
He makes the statement "it would be a downgrade". That is just simply false. I know Guy Kuo (respected CRT guru) would disagree with this. I know Joe Kane would disagree with this. I know the vast majority of people would disagree with this. So, what is presented as "fact" is in reality a very small minority opinion which is actually proved wrong by facts (the majorities preference, instrument readings, etc).
He then goes on to say "It also looks better than most of the fixed pixels you can buy out there today, including ALL of the relatively affordable ones. "
This is another bad opinion/outright lie. A $1500 digi will spank the sh!t out of every 7" and almost all 8". In the <$3K space, you have digitals that will spank all but the VERY best set up and tuned 9" (a very small minority of CRTs in use) and even there, a majority of people will prefer the digital (I've seen many 9" machines pulled out to replace with machines not even as good as some current digitals).
I don't have a problem with folks liking what they have. I have a problem with lies and uninformed opinions. 
So, I don't have a problem with you loving your bone stock Honda Civic, but if you post saying your bone stock Civic can kick the crap out of a new Porsche 911 Turbo, I'm going to have to call BULLSH!T.
The funny thing is he is talking about how great a CRT is on HD and they can't even do proper HD colors, they all fall short of Rec 709 color points!!!!! You can't say something does something great when it doesn't even do it at all!!!!!
_________________
Dave
A train station is where the train stops. A bus station is where the bus stops. On my desk, I have a work station....
Last edited by Person99 on Thu Jul 15, 2010 8:46 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Person99
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4901
Location: Flower Mound, TX
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| Link Posted: Thu Jul 15, 2010 8:45 pm Post subject: |
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| ecrabb wrote: |
Dave, is it a bit of an exaggeration to say your family's viewing enjoyment has "gone up significantly" from your old CRT setup? Why? Just because the image is a little bigger and brighter? Come on, aren't we exaggerating a little? Your wife and kids don't really give two shits if the ANSI is a little better and image is a little brighter. |
They like:
1) CIH (which is your "bigger", most 2.40:1 movies)
2) Brighter (a brighter picture looks significantly better to people, 8 ftL to 16 ftL is like night and day!)
3) Sharper (doesn't look soft, looks more like real life)
My daughter gets a total kick out of 2.40:1 movies now--almost 10 foot wide screen. Is she saying "Dad, I find this 647:1 ANSI CR to be much nicer than our old 110:1"? No, but she like the pop and fun of a big 2.40:1 image--she is actually disappointed when a movie is 1.85:1 now!
My wife's phrase was, "I like this much better". And she doesn't normally say much about A/V stuff.
Again, I'm only relating our experience FWIW.
I'm not suggesting that you should dump your G70 if you are happy! I just really get the impression that folks here don't know how good the affordable options are now.
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Dave
A train station is where the train stops. A bus station is where the bus stops. On my desk, I have a work station....
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ecrabb
Forum Moderator
Joined: 13 Mar 2006
Posts: 15909
Location: Utah
TV/Projector: JVC RS40, Epson 5010
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| Link Posted: Thu Jul 15, 2010 8:56 pm Post subject: |
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That's cool, Dave. I can see how they think the bigger/wider screen is cool, and I know the brightness is addictive. Just stacking the old 12xx's was fun to see, even if totally impractical and displaying a relatively crappy image in every other respect.
| Person99 wrote: | | I'm not suggesting that you should dump your G70 if you are happy! I just really get the impression that folks here don't know how good the affordable options are now. |
Oh, I know you weren't - I was just throwing that out there. I think you're exactly right though that many here base their negative impression of digital projectors on stuff from five years ago, most which IMHO really was sub-par.
I have some other questions for you, but I think I'll ask them in the other thread where it's more relevant.
Thanks,
SC
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garyfritz
Joined: 08 Apr 2006
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Location: Fort Collins, CO
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