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Still got CRT? Stick with it, don't go digital, see why
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Mr Bob




Joined: 23 Apr 2007
Posts: 19
Location: SF Bay Area, CA/San Lorenzo


PostLink    Posted: Mon Apr 12, 2010 9:53 pm    Post subject: Still got CRT? Stick with it, don't go digital, see why Reply with quote


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This thread is strictly for those of you digital owners who used to be CRT owners, and still have your CRT projector. Otherwise please forgive the intrusion and please go back to your regular surfing of this forum.


It has come to my attention that many triple gun CRT front projectors are still up and running on line doublers, triplers and quadruplers. These owners are pleased with their displays, which have been the best for decades. But many are now wondering about HD and whether they should buy new to get it.

DON'T!

There is no need for that! It would be a downgrade!

You gotta remember, HD was not around when these CRT front projectors were designed and built, but that the projectors themselves were designed for the highest of scanrates, then and in the future, many of them much higher than today's HD. As such, they can do 1080i and 1080p standing on their heads!

The best they had to use back then was Faroudja and Runco and 480i, and line doubling, tripling and quadrupling was the only game in town. C Band satellite - the big dish - was the best possible picture. Your projector was CAPABLE of HD, but there was no HD content yet, to display. It was still just a gleam in the eyes of its inventors.

Those who were lucky enough to have a C band in their back yard had the best possible picture, and those who had to play their content from other sources had fantastic scalers to make up the difference as much as possible.

Now everything has changed, and HD knocks the socks off any scaler built back then.

The important thing is, you don't have to replace your display to get HD! And HD looks better on triple gun CRT than even the best Faroudja, Runco Controller or Crystal Image upconverter did back then.

It also looks better than most of the fixed pixels you can buy out there today, including ALL of the relatively affordable ones. And still has the best blacks in the game, for both depth and shadow detail. The military has many applications of CRT in its displays, and sees no need to renovate them. Many planetariums use CRT triple gun displays, projecting seamless starfields and comets and swirling masses... I did a 3D display for a biogenetics company a few years ago that use today's shutter glasses, fed by IR rays sweeping the room at all times, to display DNA strands 3 dimensionally. Oakland Airport has a huge CRT video wall, with 12 separate screens all blended together seamlessly in the Southwest Terminal, that forms one huge picture and looks absolutely fabulous.

I am currently working on a DWIN CRT projector, and the owner and the integrator and I just sat down the other day to discuss it. These things all came out, and it's the second time in 2 months where this discussion had to happen. The other was a Marquee LC 9500 installation and calibration in San Luis Obispo for a doctor, a beautiful piece supplied by Curt. I steered the good doctor that way when he called me wanting me to repair his 7" gun Zenith. Since it was onto a 10' screen, a discussion was definitely needed, and his buying the 9" gun Marquee from Curt and having me install it and set it up was the result.

The doctor had never seen HD on his 10' screen before, which we shortened to 9' wide, markedly increasing the light level of his images. All he had seen before was the upconverted 480i from his Crystal Image, shot from 7" guns onto a 10' screen. I don't believe he's stopped grinning since...


KEEP YOUR CRT DISPLAY! Get it calibrated and put HD thru it and have images you only dreamed of before, with how your display was originally set up. I guaranty you that if you take it out of its mothballs and have me calibrate it for you, I'll put a big smile on your face.

If you want proof, check out the Screenshot War!!!!!!!! thread here on the AVS.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=900831

It features images from Cliff's CRT G90 doublestack that will knock your socks off. Others have chimed in, and the viewing there at that thread is absolutely eye-popping.

Wink

Mr Bob Very Happy Very Happy

_________________
Robert Jones
www.imageperfection.com
email: (spambot aversive, please reconstitute) bob at image perfection dot com
510-278-4247


Last edited by Mr Bob on Sat May 22, 2010 10:13 am; edited 1 time in total
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AnalogRocks
Forum Moderator



Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 26690
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada

TV/Projector: Sony 1252Q, AMPRO 4000G


PostLink    Posted: Mon Apr 12, 2010 10:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I sense a leaning towards CRT. Mr. Green I agree. Thumbs Up
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Mr Bob




Joined: 23 Apr 2007
Posts: 19
Location: SF Bay Area, CA/San Lorenzo


PostLink    Posted: Tue Apr 13, 2010 12:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well I would not want to ruffle any feathers in this section, but...

Yeah!

Very Happy


Mr Bob

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Robert Jones
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email: (spambot aversive, please reconstitute) bob at image perfection dot com
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cmjohnson




Joined: 03 Apr 2006
Posts: 5180
Location: Buried under G90s


PostLink    Posted: Sat May 22, 2010 3:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Very true.

What I find ironic is that all the top ranked CRT projectors were reviewed (usually glowingly) by the A/V magazines such as SGHT BEFORE
HD was even available. They didn't even have a source available to them at the time (other than high res STILL pictures from PCs) that even came CLOSE to challenging the capacity of those projectors at the time.

Nice though a properly line quadrupled image was, native 1080p HD blows the doors off it. These projectors were starting to get retired
BEFORE they'd even been allowed to show off their true capabilities at the dawn of the HD era. It's really a shame.

Frankly, I say that anyone who cared enough about picture quality to buy, for example, a G90 (New, no less!) and has switched to a digital
projector is a FOOL. They've DOWNGRADED. Or lost their will to do occasional tweaks to keep it in top shape. Which to me is one of
the things about CRT projectors that I LIKE. I'm a very "hands on" kind of guy. I like to mess with the adjustments.


A CRT projector is a high performance sports car in the video world. If you want a daily driver, get a digital PJ and be done with it,
but if a high performance picture is what you want, you want those three tubes!


CJ
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garyfritz




Joined: 08 Apr 2006
Posts: 12024
Location: Fort Collins, CO


PostLink    Posted: Sat May 22, 2010 4:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think it's amazing that they over-engineered those beasts so much. They built enough bandwidth into them to handle signals that wouldn't even exist for 10 years. Don't see that with many products these days.
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Mr. Green




Joined: 23 Feb 2007
Posts: 1394
Location: Calgary

TV/Projector: Marquee 9501LC / NEC 9PG+


PostLink    Posted: Sat May 22, 2010 9:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I guess the main problem is, how many guys out there can still calibrate these beasts? I guess I could have Curt come out when I can afford new blue and green tubes from him and get him to do Nash's new bellows and red C I got from Tom at the same time, even still he's over 10 hours drive away. I think most of the other guys are in the eastern USA. I love the picture on the 9501lc, but I know it's nowhere near what it could be.

Seriously, are there even that many guys out there that could calibrate a CRT to full potential?

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You can be young only once but, you can be immature forever.

Current Projector Marquee9501LC with PS3 (BLu-Ray) at 1080P LOVE IT! Screen is an Elunevision 120" 4:3 (2.4 gain - no hotspots). (also own a NEC 9PG+)
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Mr Bob




Joined: 23 Apr 2007
Posts: 19
Location: SF Bay Area, CA/San Lorenzo


PostLink    Posted: Sat May 22, 2010 10:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I and a few select others are the only ones left who have that staunch dedication to CRT. Others who were capable at the time have moved on to the much less time consuming fixed pixels, and seem to be very happy there.

I on the other hand am starved for more CRT work! I don't care if it's ceiling projector or self-contained RPTV work, if it's CRT I want it! Fly me in. Get others together with you or do it yourself, even just 1 projector is worth a trip across the country or to another one, for me. I install them, calibrated them, regun them, dial them in to supertightness when all they need is touchup...

Line 'em up!

If you want me to come to you, I'll check my passport and get it renewed if necessary. Last time I checked it had 2 years left on it, and I believe that was 1 year ago...

Contact me directly and post here about it as well. I'll take care of all the CRT projectors left that you can throw at me, along with my fellow CRT afficianado calibrators, which I am sure you can only count on one hand anymore. Curt and I have had spirited phone discussions on the subject, I can't wait to meet him one of these days.

Bring them on!

Shocked Razz

Mr Bob

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Robert Jones
www.imageperfection.com
email: (spambot aversive, please reconstitute) bob at image perfection dot com
510-278-4247
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Mr. Green




Joined: 23 Feb 2007
Posts: 1394
Location: Calgary

TV/Projector: Marquee 9501LC / NEC 9PG+


PostLink    Posted: Sat May 22, 2010 6:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You really need to meet Curt. ***Awesome*** guy. Thumbs Up

I can't afford to do anything right now as I'm off work as a stay at home dad. I'm saving up to get a new (newer) green and blue tube so I can do everything at once. I think I'll be doing the retubing, bellows and red C element myself. Then I'll look into calibrating it. Curt comes through Calgary every so often, so if I have it all ready to go I might be able to get him to make a stop for me. I'd love to get it to top performance and then just tweak afterwards. I plan on keeping the beast for many years still.

_________________
You can be young only once but, you can be immature forever.

Current Projector Marquee9501LC with PS3 (BLu-Ray) at 1080P LOVE IT! Screen is an Elunevision 120" 4:3 (2.4 gain - no hotspots). (also own a NEC 9PG+)
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cmjohnson




Joined: 03 Apr 2006
Posts: 5180
Location: Buried under G90s


PostLink    Posted: Sun May 23, 2010 4:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Calibration is really not that big a deal. I use a Spyder2 for grey scale calibration and when I'm done, white is really white. It works!


There are even better calibrators available now. You've seen the ads here at this site.


What is more time consuming is the overall setup of the projector. Mechanical alignment, magnetic alignment, then the alignments performed with the remote control: Focus, astig, geometry, skew, bow, convergence, etc... getting it right take several passes and some
reasonable degree of patience.


I'm gearing up for my THIRD round of modifications and general overhaul on my machine. Once I take it off the ceiling and put it into
the garage/workshop, I expect that it'll be in surgery for a month before I'm ready to reinstall it. I'm planning modifications that will
touch every circuit in the projector, practically. If I do what I plan and it all goes according to plan, when I'm done it could very well
be one of the very best performers in the world.

For me, CRT is not ONLY about the movies. The projector ITSELF is actually a hobby! Seeing how far out there I can boost it. Push it
to the absolute limit of its performance, and then modify it again to make it do even more. Fun stuff. But of course, the payoff is to
sit back, relax, and watch a great movie presented in STYLE.
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Tom.W




Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 6637



PostLink    Posted: Sun May 23, 2010 5:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

cmjohnson wrote:
Calibration is really not that big a deal. I use a Spyder2 for grey scale calibration and when I'm done, white is really white. It works!


There are even better calibrators available now. You've seen the ads here at this site.


What is more time consuming is the overall setup of the projector. Mechanical alignment, magnetic alignment, then the alignments performed with the remote control: Focus, astig, geometry, skew, bow, convergence, etc... getting it right take several passes and some
reasonable degree of patience.


I'm gearing up for my THIRD round of modifications and general overhaul on my machine. Once I take it off the ceiling and put it into
the garage/workshop, I expect that it'll be in surgery for a month before I'm ready to reinstall it. I'm planning modifications that will
touch every circuit in the projector, practically. If I do what I plan and it all goes according to plan, when I'm done it could very well
be one of the very best performers in the world.

For me, CRT is not ONLY about the movies. The projector ITSELF is actually a hobby! Seeing how far out there I can boost it. Push it
to the absolute limit of its performance, and then modify it again to make it do even more. Fun stuff. But of course, the payoff is to
sit back, relax, and watch a great movie presented in STYLE.





Thumbs Up Thumbs Up
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Mr. Green




Joined: 23 Feb 2007
Posts: 1394
Location: Calgary

TV/Projector: Marquee 9501LC / NEC 9PG+


PostLink    Posted: Sun May 23, 2010 9:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

cmjohnson wrote:
Calibration is really not that big a deal. I use a Spyder2 for grey scale calibration and when I'm done, white is really white. It works!


There are even better calibrators available now. You've seen the ads here at this site.


What is more time consuming is the overall setup of the projector. Mechanical alignment, magnetic alignment, then the alignments performed with the remote control: Focus, astig, geometry, skew, bow, convergence, etc... getting it right take several passes and some
reasonable degree of patience.


I'm gearing up for my THIRD round of modifications and general overhaul on my machine. Once I take it off the ceiling and put it into
the garage/workshop, I expect that it'll be in surgery for a month before I'm ready to reinstall it. I'm planning modifications that will
touch every circuit in the projector, practically. If I do what I plan and it all goes according to plan, when I'm done it could very well
be one of the very best performers in the world.

For me, CRT is not ONLY about the movies. The projector ITSELF is actually a hobby! Seeing how far out there I can boost it. Push it
to the absolute limit of its performance, and then modify it again to make it do even more. Fun stuff. But of course, the payoff is to
sit back, relax, and watch a great movie presented in STYLE.


I guess, you always hear guys saying you're missing out unless you have it calibrated. I'd like to get it to 100% of what it can do as well. Curt did a nice mechanical and I've dialed it in pretty well (I think). I'd still like a pro to look at it and tell me if it's missing anything.

Not bothering with calibrating until new tubes. Currently have a green and blue rectangle in white area due to previous owner using less phosphor. Only noticeable in white screens. No watching hockey for me right now.

_________________
You can be young only once but, you can be immature forever.

Current Projector Marquee9501LC with PS3 (BLu-Ray) at 1080P LOVE IT! Screen is an Elunevision 120" 4:3 (2.4 gain - no hotspots). (also own a NEC 9PG+)
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Spanky Ham




Joined: 22 Mar 2006
Posts: 5643
Location: Comedy Central


PostLink    Posted: Sun May 23, 2010 4:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cmjohnson wrote:

Frankly, I say that anyone who cared enough about picture quality to buy, for example, a G90 (New, no less!) and has switched to a digital
projector is a FOOL. They've DOWNGRADED. Or lost their will to do occasional tweaks to keep it in top shape. Which to me is one of
the things about CRT projectors that I LIKE. I'm a very "hands on" kind of guy. I like to mess with the adjustments.



CJ


I couldn't let this pass without comment. It looks like you are singling out Art. I don't think he was a fool for switching to digital. I think he made a decision on what was best for his theater and went with it.
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Mr Bob




Joined: 23 Apr 2007
Posts: 19
Location: SF Bay Area, CA/San Lorenzo


PostLink    Posted: Sun May 23, 2010 5:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't think he was singling out Art, who knows exactly what he's doing. I think he was talking about those others who are still unaware of what's possible on their current sets, in terms of HD. That takes $, and I think cm was talking about those who want to make the jump to fixed pixel without having to spend an arm and a leg. From that point of view, I think cm was dead on.

My point in starting this thread is to make absolutely clear to whoever doesn't know yet, that whoever already owns a primo CRT ceiling pj capable of at least line doubling doesn't really need to think about buying new just to get HD. That the older CRT scanrate decoding capable's are emminently ready to deliver jaw dropping HD without any significant changes and with current projector and signal chain equipment, and therefore without an awful lot of $ added to the pot. I mean, how much does it take to get your Bluray player's HDMI to your RGBHV input? The HD Fury series - II or III - is all it takes, available right here on this site. Period. No scaler is necessary. No new pj is necessary. For well under $500 you're all set! Then get it calibrated - or calibrate it yourself - as you would have done anyway.

I agree that with the exception of Art - our home cinema godfather - most other people who would replace a fully functional CRT ceiling pj with 99% of anything out there today IS a fool. Or just uneducated.

I can't do much about the former, but I am trying like mad to remedy the latter!

I know on this site there aren't too many more out there who don't know this stuff, I am just trying to get the last of them eddicated!

Very Happy

b

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www.imageperfection.com
email: (spambot aversive, please reconstitute) bob at image perfection dot com
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cmjohnson




Joined: 03 Apr 2006
Posts: 5180
Location: Buried under G90s


PostLink    Posted: Mon May 24, 2010 4:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Art's decision to switch would at least have been made with FULL awareness of what he's doing and absolutely realistic expectations of how this will change the quality of the picture he watches. My comments are aimed more at the person who switches without properly investigating the relative strengths and weaknesses of the competing technologies, or ended up with a G90 but doesn't properly appreciate
it and settles for a far inferior digital projector and doesn't seem to notice that the picture sucks suddenly.


CJ
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Sparky015




Joined: 12 May 2009
Posts: 1185
Location: Cleveland / Akron, OH


PostLink    Posted: Mon May 24, 2010 4:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bob,
What is the going rate for calibrating a CRT projector? Is there just one tier, which is full magnetics and color/grey scale, or are their multiple tiers of service? I've actually never gotten a quote or had it done, so I really don't have an idea. Feel free to PM me. I wouldn't expect you to make your pricing public.

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WanMan




Joined: 19 Mar 2006
Posts: 10273



PostLink    Posted: Thu Jul 08, 2010 9:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Three more CRT folks were spotted on AV$ in the digital forums. One bought and two are buying used digital projectors and selling/sold their CRTs.
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Mark_A_W




Joined: 15 Mar 2006
Posts: 3068
Location: Sunny Melbourne Australia


PostLink    Posted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 11:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I saw a Sony HW15 on the weekend - one of the Aussie CRT guys has switched.


It was amazing. Staggering. The only thing the CRT does better is absolute black. In every other way the CRT is thoroughly spanked.

I saw so many details in Avatar and Baraka that I had never noticed on my XG or on my 24" CRT monitor.


Most of us agreed we were on our last CRT. I have seen a 909, and I'm not sure if I would take the $65000 909, or the $3000 HW15.

(Actually I will wait until the HW15 equivalent can do 3D - but that won't be long.)


And having just changed XGs due to tube wear on green at 600 hours, the digital is cheaper to run.



I think Mr Bob is kidding himself.
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winduptoy




Joined: 25 Nov 2006
Posts: 187
Location: Lunenburg, Nova Scotia


PostLink    Posted: Wed Jul 14, 2010 12:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm with Bob & sticking with the CRT for the forseeable future. I'm happy with the picture I'm getting, and I have yet to see a digital display that comes close producing an image with the visceral impact that a well set up LC machine can deliver, blacks, gamma and color accuracy in particular. That impact is not possible to see in a screenshot. There is too much dynamic range for a digital camera to capture. Although it is possible to take very good screenshots. Here's a photo of my tube faces after over 2000 hours of use since I bought it over 2 years ago.









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Mark_A_W




Joined: 15 Mar 2006
Posts: 3068
Location: Sunny Melbourne Australia


PostLink    Posted: Wed Jul 14, 2010 12:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, the gamma and greyscale on an XG is terrible (measured with HCFR and Colorfacts).


And the color primaries fall short of Rec 709.


So no, the colours are not that good anymore. My tubes would look the same in a tube shot, but there was *just* noticable 2.40:1 wear showing on the 16:9 screen (90% 2.40:1 movies) at 600 hours. That was enough for me to swap to my spare chassis.



The HW15 is so much sharper, it's amazing. Like I said, absolute black level was the only flaw I could see (oh, I saw the iris move once).

Your screenshots, as with all screenshots, are blurry crap, and of no use whatsover to make any sort of judgement. Screenshots are completely pointless.
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Person99




Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4901
Location: Flower Mound, TX


PostLink    Posted: Wed Jul 14, 2010 9:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

winduptoy wrote:
I'm with Bob & sticking with the CRT for the forseeable future. I'm happy with the picture I'm getting, and I have yet to see a digital display that comes close producing an image with the visceral impact that a well set up LC machine can deliver, blacks, gamma and color accuracy in particular.


You have obviously not seen many of the current crop of decent digitals. I had one of the best 8" LC machines ever made (Zenith Pro 1200x), and all things being considered, there are many digitals that spank it all around.

Remember, Bob is not a neutral observer. Bob makes money doing calibrations, CRT calibrations take longer, Bob makes more money calibrating CRTs than digitals, Bob wants lots of CRTs in the world. Hmmmm.

Your screen shots are WAAAY too soft for me. I've become used to my on screen images being as sharp as real life.

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