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CRT_Ben
Joined: 28 Aug 2006
Posts: 1684
Location: Northern Virginia
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 Link Posted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 8:50 pm Post subject: |
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| emdawgz1 wrote: | | CRT_Ben wrote: | | emdawgz1 wrote: |  |
What the heck is this? A "Russian Doll" house? |
thats what we call in Phila a "rowhome". They are townhouses built on a street that runs kinda diagonally. they are stepped in order to maximise the lot space. It's actually 3 houses. |
The perspective must be really weird or something, because each one looks (to me) WAY smaller than the next, far smaller than could be accounted for by 8-10ft of offset. The fourth especially looks like a midget house.
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WanMan
Joined: 19 Mar 2006
Posts: 10273
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| Link Posted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 10:09 pm Post subject: |
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How the heck did we get onto housing prices? You fricken button pushers and thread hijackers. 
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AnalogRocks
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| Link Posted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 2:18 am Post subject: |
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| WanMan wrote: | | How the heck did we get onto housing prices? You fricken button pushers and thread hijackers. |
It's just the way we flow. 
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paw
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 1176
Location: Arvada, CO
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| Link Posted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 4:26 am Post subject: |
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| WanMan wrote: | | How the heck did we get onto housing prices? You fricken button pushers and thread hijackers. |
I was wondering the same thing. 
"home theater" is a pretty loosey goosey term. There's not even an AV industry standard for what it should be. Look at what Webster sayes
an entertainment system for the home that usually consists of a large television with video components (as a DVD player and VCR) and an audio system offering surround sound
VCR!!!! Not in the 21st century. Yeah, yeah, yeah we shouldn't look to Webster for AV term definitions but Joe Six Pack would.
I agree that the typical living room set up is more of a media room but most people have never heard that term.
Home theater as a word(s) is kind like car as a word. Car can mean a Yugo or a Lambo. When someone mentions their Bose HTIB is a "home theater", just smile and nod your head. If they are a friend, invite them over for a beer and movie.
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Aubrey
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greg_mitch
Joined: 03 May 2006
Posts: 5321
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| Link Posted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 4:47 am Post subject: |
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I tend to agree with Wan (  ).
To each his own but really...your living room is a home theater?? Do you know what a theater looks like?
Call me snobby...I don't care.
When I convinced my parents to buy that JVC HTiB...what seems like 15 years ago...I started bragging about surround sound...but I never called it home theater because it was in our living room.
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MikeEby
Joined: 24 Jun 2007
Posts: 5238
Location: Osceola, Indiana
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| Link Posted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 4:58 am Post subject: |
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I'm with the rest of the snobs here...I can hardly watch a movie anymore in my living room too many distractions.
Mike
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AnalogRocks
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| Link Posted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 6:41 am Post subject: |
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SO what shall we call a room that we live in and watch movies in with a theater like experience but also doubles as a gathering place for friends and family?
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dturco
Joined: 06 Feb 2009
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| Link Posted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 1:09 pm Post subject: |
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Media- Entertainment Room.[ with the occasional flying guest, in your case] That's the Real Estate term for the multi purpose rooms. To qualify as a theater it must be able to be closed off from all other parts of the home, and be a able to be light controlled.
I am Not saying that everyone adheres to that, but that is what the better builders and real estate agents ,have decided it should be. It does Not however take into consideration the theater equipment though. I don't think it should anyway. So the HTB's still count that way, unfortunately.
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Person99
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4901
Location: Flower Mound, TX
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| Link Posted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 10:34 pm Post subject: |
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| emdawgz1 wrote: | i'll show what the housing bubble did to phila...
Look at this graph... Now i have said and continue to say that homes do NOT double in VALUE in 10 years.
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Dude, I am rightously confused by your statement. You say that homes do NOT double in value every 10 years. Then you post a graph that shows that the current price of houses in your market is currently OVER double what it was almost exactly 10 years ago (from 58K in Jan 2000 to the current about 130K in Dec 2009).  WTF? Are your math skills bad or something?
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Dave
A train station is where the train stops. A bus station is where the bus stops. On my desk, I have a work station....
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garyfritz
Joined: 08 Apr 2006
Posts: 12026
Location: Fort Collins, CO
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| Link Posted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 10:50 pm Post subject: |
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He said they don't double in VALUE -- but they DID double in PRICE. I think that was the distinction he was making.
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Person99
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
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Location: Flower Mound, TX
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| Link Posted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 11:07 pm Post subject: |
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| garyfritz wrote: | | He said they don't double in VALUE -- but they DID double in PRICE. I think that was the distinction he was making. |
For a home, what the hell criteria would one use to seperate value from price? That does not make it make anymore sense?!?!?!?
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Dave
A train station is where the train stops. A bus station is where the bus stops. On my desk, I have a work station....
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garyfritz
Joined: 08 Apr 2006
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Location: Fort Collins, CO
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| Link Posted: Thu Dec 10, 2009 4:47 pm Post subject: |
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Well let's say you're in a crazy market and house prices go from X to 10X in 10 years. Then reality hits, the sub-prime crisis readjusts people's perceptions, and prices fall from 10X to 3X. That kind of price action happened, in SoCal and elsewhere.
Did the house value *really* go to 10X? I'd say no. Prices got out of whack with reality due to a speculative bubble with people gambling with their houses. Speculative bubbles increase PRICE, but not VALUE.
Price is easy to track. Value is much harder. If you knew the true value, you'd know better than to bid up prices to crazy levels. If you DON'T have any way to assess true value, then you ought to treat your house as a place to live instead of a lotto ticket.
The things that define value tend to be things like replacement costs, job growth, population growth, etc. Median house value should roughly track median wages. If people with a typical job can't afford a typical house, then prices have probably outstripped value.
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emdawgz1
Joined: 14 Mar 2006
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| Link Posted: Thu Dec 10, 2009 5:03 pm Post subject: |
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| garyfritz wrote: | | He said they don't double in VALUE -- but they DID double in PRICE. I think that was the distinction he was making. |
DING DING DING DING DING!!!
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emdawgz1
Joined: 14 Mar 2006
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| Link Posted: Thu Dec 10, 2009 5:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Person99 wrote: | | garyfritz wrote: | | He said they don't double in VALUE -- but they DID double in PRICE. I think that was the distinction he was making. |
For a home, what the hell criteria would one use to seperate value from price? That does not make it make anymore sense?!?!?!? |
This is the key Distinction. The reason so many owners are in trouble now is that distinction...
Example.
Bob buys a house, he pays 500k for it and because his credit was so so he only can get a ARM. So he has low payments for 2 yrs and then it adjusts. The lender tells him "Dont worry, in 2 yrs this home will appreciate, and you can refinance w/ a low fixed rate." 2yrs later...(today) he tries to re-fi... and he finds not only has the house not appreciated, but he overpaid. So while the PRICE he paid was 500k the value of the property was only 400k.
Yes house prices may rise quickly. The VALUE does not.
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Person99
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4901
Location: Flower Mound, TX
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| Link Posted: Thu Dec 10, 2009 5:14 pm Post subject: |
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| emdawgz1 wrote: | | garyfritz wrote: | | He said they don't double in VALUE -- but they DID double in PRICE. I think that was the distinction he was making. |
DING DING DING DING DING!!! |
Please explain this distinction in a meaningful way. The value of real estate is what people will pay for it. The price of real estate is what people will pay for it. In real estate value=price.
I can say arbitrarily that the value of 1 acre of land is X and the price of the one acre in downtown NYC is 1000000x and in BFE Arkansas is .0001X. This makes no sense at all.
So, I'm back to this: for real estate, please provide a meaningful definition of "value" that is seperated from the "price" the market is willing to pay.
Further, you example wasn't 10X is was questioning the started 2X increase since WW2. In this perspective, wild fluctuations are "smoothed out" (and, for that matter, the posted graph did not have anything close to "10X" it wasn't even 3X so I have no idea where the "10x" came from.
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Dave
A train station is where the train stops. A bus station is where the bus stops. On my desk, I have a work station....
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Person99
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4901
Location: Flower Mound, TX
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| Link Posted: Thu Dec 10, 2009 5:26 pm Post subject: |
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| emdawgz1 wrote: | | Person99 wrote: | | garyfritz wrote: | | He said they don't double in VALUE -- but they DID double in PRICE. I think that was the distinction he was making. |
For a home, what the hell criteria would one use to seperate value from price? That does not make it make anymore sense?!?!?!? |
This is the key Distinction. The reason so many owners are in trouble now is that distinction...
Example.
Bob buys a house, he pays 500k for it and because his credit was so so he only can get a ARM. So he has low payments for 2 yrs and then it adjusts. The lender tells him "Dont worry, in 2 yrs this home will appreciate, and you can refinance w/ a low fixed rate." 2yrs later...(today) he tries to re-fi... and he finds not only has the house not appreciated, but he overpaid. So while the PRICE he paid was 500k the value of the property was only 400k.
Yes house prices may rise quickly. The VALUE does not. |
Your example here has nothing to do with "value" and "price". The example is nothing more than demonstrating the the prediction was wrong. For instance, lets say I go by a piece of art for $100,000 (could be stock or anything) with the expectation that it will go up to $500,000 in 6 years. Now, 6 years comes around, lets look at two scenerios:
1) I was wrong, the art only sold at auction for $90,000.
2) It was better than I thought, my art sold sold at auction for $900,000.
Now, in these scenerios, there is no intrinsic "value" that the art has in both scenerios. There is not single constant "value". Real estate is the same which is why the assertion you are trying to make is nonsensical.
Your statement "So while the PRICE he paid was 500k the value of the property was only 400k" is not correct unless you are using the terms to talk about a discrete instance. For example, if everyone is buying commodity X at $400 and I buy it at $900, then the "value" of the item is $400 and the "price" for most people is $400 but since I overpaid, for me it was "$900". But, using the terms like this, I cannot generate generalization. For instance, if everyone is paying $900, then the "value" and the "price" is $900.
So, it seems like you are talking about the market in general which is why your value/price distinction makes little sense (value is simply defined as the price people are willing to pay). If you were trying to talk about discrete instances in which a specific individual overpaid, then it makes sense.
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Dave
A train station is where the train stops. A bus station is where the bus stops. On my desk, I have a work station....
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emdawgz1
Joined: 14 Mar 2006
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| Link Posted: Thu Dec 10, 2009 5:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Person99 wrote: | | emdawgz1 wrote: | | garyfritz wrote: | | He said they don't double in VALUE -- but they DID double in PRICE. I think that was the distinction he was making. |
DING DING DING DING DING!!! |
Please explain this distinction in a meaningful way. The value of real estate is what people will pay for it. The price of real estate is what people will pay for it. In real estate value=price.
I can say arbitrarily that the value of 1 acre of land is X and the price of the one acre in downtown NYC is 1000000x and in BFE Arkansas is .0001X. This makes no sense at all.
So, I'm back to this: for real estate, please provide a meaningful definition of "value" that is seperated from the "price" the market is willing to pay.
Further, you example wasn't 10X is was questioning the started 2X increase since WW2. In this perspective, wild fluctuations are "smoothed out" (and, for that matter, the posted graph did not have anything close to "10X" it wasn't even 3X so I have no idea where the "10x" came from. |
Value and price are almost never equal. It's often expedient to think of them as the same but price is easy to determine. Value is not.
as you state, 1 acre in DesMoines is not the same as 1 in downtown NYC or Tokyo, or Coastal California. Their value is determined by many things. Availability, Desirability, means of those who seek the commodity, etc...
The determinates of Value tend to change slowly. Price on the other hand , can fluctuate wildly. In the current crisis, the flood of cheap money from the Fed, relaxing of Regulation by the Government, lowering of lending standards by lenders, and the ability to sell bad debt in MBS's Combined to vastly inflate Real estate PRICES. The values did not change. Hence the problems we have now.
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Last edited by emdawgz1 on Thu Dec 10, 2009 5:37 pm; edited 1 time in total
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emdawgz1
Joined: 14 Mar 2006
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| Link Posted: Thu Dec 10, 2009 5:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Person99 wrote: |
Your example here has nothing to do with "value" and "price". The example is nothing more than demonstrating the the prediction was wrong. For instance, lets say I go by a piece of art for $100,000 (could be stock or anything) with the expectation that it will go up to $500,000 in 6 years. Now, 6 years comes around, lets look at two scenerios:
1) I was wrong, the art only sold at auction for $90,000.
2) It was better than I thought, my art sold sold at auction for $900,000.
Now, in these scenerios, there is no intrinsic "value" that the art has in both scenerios. There is not single constant "value". Real estate is the same which is why the assertion you are trying to make is nonsensical.
Your statement "So while the PRICE he paid was 500k the value of the property was only 400k" is not correct unless you are using the terms to talk about a discrete instance. For example, if everyone is buying commodity X at $400 and I buy it at $900, then the "value" of the item is $400 and the "price" for most people is $400 but since I overpaid, for me it was "$900". But, using the terms like this, I cannot generate generalization. For instance, if everyone is paying $900, then the "value" and the "price" is $900.
So, it seems like you are talking about the market in general which is why your value/price distinction makes little sense (value is simply defined as the price people are willing to pay). If you were trying to talk about discrete instances in which a specific individual overpaid, then it makes sense. |
If i'm buying Art at auction i should not be guessing at the PRICE i should be trying to determine the VALUE. Who is the artist? Is he dead or Alive? Is he prolific or not? What is the medium? Is the medium prolific? There are many things that go into it. So what i'm trying to say is that as i buy a new house i'm trying to be a value shopper.
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garyfritz
Joined: 08 Apr 2006
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Location: Fort Collins, CO
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| Link Posted: Thu Dec 10, 2009 5:42 pm Post subject: |
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Dave, you're basically defining "value == price" as an axiom. If you start with that assumption, then of course value = price and anything else doesn't make sense.
John and I are saying they are NOT the same thing. "Price" is the short-term number that the market is willing to pay for something at the moment. Whereas "value" is the intrinsic worth of the thing -- which can fluctuate, but not as wildly as the price. The value of a house can increase because, say, you added another bedroom, or more jobs become available nearby, or the city puts in a light-rail line 2 blocks away -- making the house more desirable. Those are changes in the actual character of the house and its position in the market.
Whereas "price" is whatever some idiot (any ONE idiot) is willing to pay. It may have very little connection to the actual value -- which is how you get into speculative bubbles.
"Value" is determined by the intrinsic worth. "Price" is determined by emotions (fear and greed).
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emdawgz1
Joined: 14 Mar 2006
Posts: 7949
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| Link Posted: Thu Dec 10, 2009 5:50 pm Post subject: |
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| garyfritz wrote: | Dave, you're basically defining "value == price" as an axiom. If you start with that assumption, then of course value = price and anything else doesn't make sense.
John and I are saying they are NOT the same thing. "Price" is the short-term number that the market is willing to pay for something at the moment. Whereas "value" is the intrinsic worth of the thing -- which can fluctuate, but not as wildly as the price. The value of a house can increase because, say, you added another bedroom, or more jobs become available nearby, or the city puts in a light-rail line 2 blocks away -- making the house more desirable. Those are changes in the actual character of the house and its position in the market.
Whereas "price" is whatever some idiot (any ONE idiot) is willing to pay. It may have very little connection to the actual value -- which is how you get into speculative bubbles.
"Value" is determined by the intrinsic worth. "Price" is determined by emotions (fear and greed). |
What he said!
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