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Is my screen to small?
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dturco



Joined: 06 Feb 2009
Posts: 3779
Location: Eastern Shore Maryland

TV/Projector: Runco DLP VX-3000i Marquee 9500 parts doner


PostLink    Posted: Mon Jun 22, 2009 2:59 pm    Post subject: Is my screen to small? Reply with quote


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Is my screen to small for my Marquee 9500L/C? My screensize is 100" diagonal 92" wide 87 viewable. Could this be the reason I feel the image is, Smeared ,confined, compressed? Just not sharp enough?

The 9500 is 108" from the screen to the green tube face. The picture size is 90 h 35 v

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WayneB



Joined: 24 Dec 2008
Posts: 113
Location: Victoria, BC

TV/Projector: Marquee 9500LC Ultra


PostLink    Posted: Mon Jun 22, 2009 5:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My screen is 16x9 72" wide (83 diagonal) and I am also at 108" with my 9500LC.
So I hope the general concensis is "NO" you are not too close, because my screen is fixed and I can't change it.
I think my picture is pretty good, but there is a lot of room for improvement.
Did you actually do your magnetics yet?
Can you expand on your definition of "Smeared ,confined, compressed? Just not sharp enough?"
...Wayne
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dturco



Joined: 06 Feb 2009
Posts: 3779
Location: Eastern Shore Maryland

TV/Projector: Runco DLP VX-3000i Marquee 9500 parts doner


PostLink    Posted: Mon Jun 22, 2009 5:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Wayne. Yes I did the magnetics the best that I could. [ EDIT the focus mags with the brass nuts only, I think there is another set but I haven't touch them yet.] They could use another tweak but I'm just not up to 8 more hours of that kind of fun. The smeared.... etc is during a close up of someones face they look off colored and plastic-like or wax-like. The natural pores of the skin never show.

I'm sorry I can't explain it better it just doesn't look right.

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draganm



Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 8948
Location: Colorado


PostLink    Posted: Mon Jun 22, 2009 6:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dturco wrote:
Is my screen to small for my Marquee 9500L/C? My screensize is 100" diagonal 92" wide 87 viewable. The 9500 is 108" from the screen to the green tube face. The picture size is 90 h 35 v
you;'ve got this backward, the image quality decreases as the screen get's bigger. The smaller the screen the sharper, brighter, and more dynamic it should be.


dturco wrote:
Could this be the reason I feel the image is, Smeared ,confined, compressed? Just not sharp enough?
Wow, i've never heard those terms used in relation to CRT before.

dturco wrote:
The smeared.... etc is during a close up of someones face they look off colored and plastic-like or wax-like. The natural pores of the skin never show. I'm sorry I can't explain it better it just doesn't look right.
somethings wrong here, really wrong. Of all things CRT does well, close-ups of peoples faces are top of the list. People's faces should be just popping off the screen, like that person was there and staring at you. I have a normal 8500 and face close ups are one fo those moments when you get distracted fro mthe movie and just say " WOW, that looks good".
I'm really not sure where to start diagnosing your problem, maybe start by listing the entire system from PJ to screen including type of cables, length, viewing environment, etc.
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dturco



Joined: 06 Feb 2009
Posts: 3779
Location: Eastern Shore Maryland

TV/Projector: Runco DLP VX-3000i Marquee 9500 parts doner


PostLink    Posted: Tue Jun 23, 2009 12:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Dragan, Well I'm full of first ain't I. Laughing

It maybe the upscaling of the DVD's that is causing this issue. I watched a Blu-ray last night and it wasn't as bad.
I got the idea of smearing from here http://www.curtpalme.com/CRTPrimer_14.shtm.

I also re-read this where it says a 7 ft screen is used by the diehard fans of CRT. So..... I guess not, on the screen size. Maybe screen material, but that's for later anyway.


When I did the Focus Mags the edges went out of focus and the image went softer but had more depth and color saturation.But also this out of focus kinda-sorta thing happened. It's not terrible, just not as good as I think it should be and is sometimes.

I was hoping for a scape goat so I didn't have to do the mags again. Sad

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garyfritz



Joined: 08 Apr 2006
Posts: 10959
Location: Fort Collins, CO


PostLink    Posted: Tue Jun 23, 2009 1:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You know, if you paid for someone to do a real setup/calibration on this thing, I bet you wouldn't even recognize it. I'd guarantee a pro could figure out what's wrong and make it look 10x better than it does now, and better than you could ever do. (Even those of us amateurs who are pretty darn good at setting these things up can't match the results a real pro gets.)

Did you do the zone focus after doing the magnetics?

Upscaled SD DVDs will definitely not look tack-sharp. They look great on a 30-40" screen but when you blow 'em up for a 100" screen you see the limitations of the signal. If Blu-Ray disks look good, that means you've at least got the projector doing better than the SD DVD is capable of, at least in some areas of the screen. Try getting a Blu-Ray test-pattern disk (e.g. this free one) and see how your focus looks with that.
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dturco



Joined: 06 Feb 2009
Posts: 3779
Location: Eastern Shore Maryland

TV/Projector: Runco DLP VX-3000i Marquee 9500 parts doner


PostLink    Posted: Tue Jun 23, 2009 1:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Better than I could ever do? Sir you insult me..... I take umbrage... I... I.... your right Laughing

I fully agree a pro is the only way I could ever be happy. I am just so CRITICAL/ANAL about image quality.

I wonder if I can send back the eye one? It piss' me off real quick, and without the proper set up what good will it do?

The zone Focus I believe so. I had Bill Blue's set up guide in my hands for the whole procedure,I followed it to the sentence, I won't say letter because I'm sure I missed something. I did the very best I could.

I have tried to take pictures of the screen images but the camera doesn't like the dark. I had out the instruction manual for the camera. I Tried night scene , open or increase shutter speed, No flash , with flash. It became just one more thing I had to learn to do, just to learn to use the other thing and well.... Patience ran out again.

But I digress.

If I go the route of the Pro should it be before the new Moome card, instead of the new Moome card,with the new Moome card?

Gary, thank you again.

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emdawgz1



Joined: 14 Mar 2006
Posts: 7949



PostLink    Posted: Tue Jun 23, 2009 2:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

gary is right.

There's times to "cheap out" and times to spend some dough.

You've got one of the best Pj's around, spend a little coin and maximize it.

If you had a Ferrari you wouldn't take it to the Jiffy lube to save a couple of bucks...Would'ja????? Cool

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dturco



Joined: 06 Feb 2009
Posts: 3779
Location: Eastern Shore Maryland

TV/Projector: Runco DLP VX-3000i Marquee 9500 parts doner


PostLink    Posted: Tue Jun 23, 2009 2:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

emdawgz1 wrote:
gary is right.

There's times to "cheap out" and times to spend some dough.

You've got one of the best Pj's around, spend a little coin and maximize it.

If you had a Ferrari you wouldn't take it to the Jiffy lube to save a couple of bucks...Would'ja????? Cool




Some of it IS money, most of it IS silly pride. Embarassed

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garyfritz



Joined: 08 Apr 2006
Posts: 10959
Location: Fort Collins, CO


PostLink    Posted: Tue Jun 23, 2009 8:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Don't feel bad. Tweeking these things for maximal performance is an EXTREMELY involved and complex procedure involving dozens of independent and interacting factors: physical/mechanical setup, optical focus, electrical focus, magnetic setup, convergence, color calibration ... It's a hobby in and of itself, just as if you decided to work on your Ferrari yourself in the garage. If you really know what you're doing, and you really enjoy working on the car, then cool. But like John said, you wouldn't do it to save a few bucks. If you don't enjoy it, and you aren't getting the results you want, then by all means take that Ferrari to a specialist and let him coax out everything it is capable of.

Definitely get the Moome card and anything else that you plan to get before doing it. The pro will calibrate for every signal source. If you change sources (or modify it in the case of the Moome card), you'll throw off his carefully-tuned results as much as if you changed out the engine in the Ferrari after taking it to the mechanic for a tuneup. Well, maybe not QUITE that much. Smile

BTW on the SD DVD resolution issue: here's a bit of data to help you understand why SD DVDs won't look sharp on your 100" screen. DVDs store the 16x9 image in a 720x480 resolution. So each pixel on the screen is about 90/720 = 1/8" square! Set up a ruler on your screen and see if you can discern the 1/8" markings from your viewing position. The pixels will look pretty small, but not as small as your vision can discern. By contrast the HD pixels are about 90/1920 = .0468" or about 1/21" across. You have to sit within about 1.8x screen width to resolve individual 1920x1080 pixels, assuming 20/20 vision. So if you're sitting within 162" = 13.5' of your 90"-wide screen -- and most of us do -- you're within the range where you can see individual HD pixels. So SD pixels will look huge and blocky. If not for good upscaling DVD players, you couldn't stand to watch SD. A good upscaler will make an SD DVD look Really Good, but it can't look as sharp as HD. The information just isn't there.
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dturco



Joined: 06 Feb 2009
Posts: 3779
Location: Eastern Shore Maryland

TV/Projector: Runco DLP VX-3000i Marquee 9500 parts doner


PostLink    Posted: Tue Jun 23, 2009 9:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Or how about the Chevy mechanic trying to work on the Ferrari. They both have an engine ,transmission, and four wheels, then it gets far more complicated. Thats how I feel. I understand what it does, but I can't get it to do what it does at top performance.

Edit : I just gleaned that link on the eye. Cool.

So lets see We have the tube face, then the projector lense, then the screen reflecting back to me. Then we have my glasses, my intraocular lens in one eye, my natural lenses in the other eye then the retina, then my fried brain.

Quite the chain for the light to follow.

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draganm



Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 8948
Location: Colorado


PostLink    Posted: Tue Jun 23, 2009 10:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not as sold on the pro set-up thing. One big sticking point for me is you will spend the next 5 years worrying you might accidentalty screw up his'perfect set-up". that sucks really, I recomend pro set-ups for people who , no matter how hard the ytry, just can't grasp the concept of what;s happening. IT's obviosu that even though you've made some blunders you do get the basics and if you could undertsand the BB guide then yuor well on down the road and that little bit of perfect is a matter of time.
Maybe there's something else wrong? What screne do you have?
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dturco



Joined: 06 Feb 2009
Posts: 3779
Location: Eastern Shore Maryland

TV/Projector: Runco DLP VX-3000i Marquee 9500 parts doner


PostLink    Posted: Tue Jun 23, 2009 11:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well thanks for the kind words?

I agree about the pro set up for the reasons you posted, along with if something happens then I have to pay again. Also I really wanted to do it myself sense of accomplishment and all that.

The screen is this http://www.htmarket.com/hocisemaschd.html

I know the screen is not great. However I doubt it is the screen causing the edges to be out of focus.

The focus thing is very obvious on the edges. When the focus menu is done the edges are at 12 or 35 for the red, 50 on the center for red, and mostly 50's across the board for the green and blue.

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draganm



Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 8948
Location: Colorado


PostLink    Posted: Wed Jun 24, 2009 2:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

it's hard to say with those cheap screens, some people have reported better results with painting their own using Behr Ultra white.

dturco wrote:
The focus thing is very obvious on the edges. When the focus menu is done the edges are at 12 or 35 for the red, 50 on the center for red, and mostly 50's across the board for the green and blue.
the numbers don't mean anything in and of themselves. They can be all over the place.
Set master focsu (PIC 4 ) to 50 then do the individual zones in gthe service menu. Push the # key and bring up the grid. Try and get the lines as thin as possible by ramping the focus up/down. You should do it with your nose right up to the screen. If it's still off on the egdes then it's probably your lens flapping (Scheimphlug)
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dturco



Joined: 06 Feb 2009
Posts: 3779
Location: Eastern Shore Maryland

TV/Projector: Runco DLP VX-3000i Marquee 9500 parts doner


PostLink    Posted: Wed Jun 24, 2009 12:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lens Flapping can cause this out of focus on the edges? I am still having problems with getting that right. Infact I have been doing a cursory pass on that all the time. A few quick turns of the bolts and on to the next step. That could be the issue.

Are the any tips to insure a good result from lens flapping?

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garyfritz



Joined: 08 Apr 2006
Posts: 10959
Location: Fort Collins, CO


PostLink    Posted: Wed Jun 24, 2009 1:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lens flapping works to get the focus uniform top-to-bottom, OR left-to-right. So yes, if e.g. the left/right flapping is bad, then if you focus it in the center, the left and right edges will be out of focus.

You can also have focus trouble with ALL edges if you haven't done the edge-focus adjustment on the lenses, but I assume I've done that?
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dturco



Joined: 06 Feb 2009
Posts: 3779
Location: Eastern Shore Maryland

TV/Projector: Runco DLP VX-3000i Marquee 9500 parts doner


PostLink    Posted: Wed Jun 24, 2009 2:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garyfritz wrote:
Lens flapping works to get the focus uniform top-to-bottom, OR left-to-right. So yes, if e.g. the left/right flapping is bad, then if you focus it in the center, the left and right edges will be out of focus.

You can also have focus trouble with ALL edges if you haven't done the edge-focus adjustment on the lenses, but I assume I've done that?


I have tried to do that on numerous occasions. I don't think I have it right though. Yet again one more thing to learn/master.

This feels like a causality loop. Adjust then side of lens, adjust the top of lens, go back and re-focus lens, adjust top of lens, adjust side of lens, re-focus lens........

I am trying, but I'm at that worn down stage again.

The Red C-Element will be a refreshing change. Once it's in, it should be a complete project. It either leaks or it doesn't, a finality. A small victory, an accomplishment.

Then I'll mount it on the ceiling and then do a set-up all over again including an 8 hour marathon of, Magnetics, Lens flapping, and a final convergence.Then the Eye-One will come out to play.

God help me.

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draganm



Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 8948
Location: Colorado


PostLink    Posted: Wed Jun 24, 2009 3:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

it's too bad there are no Marquee experts close by. There is always the chance that the machine is dialed in fairly well, maybe up to 90% ofit's potential and it just doesn't appeal to your eyes. Some people are satisifed by and respond to certain quality's like ultimate pin-in-yuor eye sharpness that only an LCD can deliver.
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ecrabb
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Joined: 13 Mar 2006
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TV/Projector: JVC RS40, Epson 5010


PostLink    Posted: Wed Jun 24, 2009 4:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Have you maximized your rasters so they are extremely close the edge of the tube face? If so, that can cause poor L-R edge focus and especially poor corner focus on the tight corner. If you're floor-mounted, the two bottom corners will be the worst; if you can't seem to get them any sharper, that could be part of your problem.

Just throwing it out there as one more thing to look at.

SC
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dturco



Joined: 06 Feb 2009
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Location: Eastern Shore Maryland

TV/Projector: Runco DLP VX-3000i Marquee 9500 parts doner


PostLink    Posted: Wed Jun 24, 2009 7:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dragan Remember I am comparing this to a CRT rptv. I just want to match the picture to the Mitsubishi, which has a great picture that I love.

Ecrabb yes the raster is maxed out on the tube face and the corners are decidedly out of focus. I am floor mounted and it is the lower corners. HHmmmmm.

So shrink the raster, do more lens flapping and maybe that will be it?

Easy enough to do I'll report back.

Thanks again every one

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