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Corleone88
Joined: 09 Dec 2006
Posts: 449
Location: France
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 Link Posted: Thu Jun 04, 2009 7:53 am Post subject: Picture too redish with Eye one |
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Hi,
This is my first time trying to calibrate my system. I own a BG808 with HD-144, a Lumagen HDQ, a Panasonic BD-35.
I bought a Eye one sensor and follow the Greyscale and colour calibration for Dummies. First I set the colour Temp of the BG808 at 6500K. The picture looks ok but well, it is just my eyes so I want to be sure I have the best possible picture concerning greyscale and colour. So I plugged The Eye One to my old laptop and run HCFR. I set to Eye One LCD (with CRT option, it cannot be calibrated) and calibrate the sensor by putting it on a flat DVD case (avoiding external light). Then I started the continuous mesureament and was surprised by the results (even if I knew that my colours looked a bit cold): 60% red, 110% green and 135% blue on a window 100% white pattern (from Lumagen). If I measure the full greyscale, it seems that my red is too low and my blue too high. By changing the 11 points of my Lumagen gamut in order to get my greyscale right, I end up having a horrible redish picture. So is my sensor faulty or have I done something wrong ?
By the way, I also calibrated my TV (CRT) directly from a LG DVD player (no Lumagen this time) and the colours look really good even if I had only the drive and cutoff parameters of each colour to play with in mi TV service menu.
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Nashou66
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Corleone88
Joined: 09 Dec 2006
Posts: 449
Location: France
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| Link Posted: Thu Jun 04, 2009 1:15 pm Post subject: |
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TV : 50Hz
BG808 : 72Hz
Do you think it can be related to the refresh rate?
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Nashou66
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Corleone88
Joined: 09 Dec 2006
Posts: 449
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| Link Posted: Thu Jun 04, 2009 2:29 pm Post subject: |
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Ok I get it 
It was one week between the two sessions.
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Nashou66
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Citation4444
Joined: 17 Sep 2008
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Location: North GA Mountains
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| Link Posted: Thu Jun 04, 2009 3:32 pm Post subject: |
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When measuring the projector was the i1 sensor facing the screen or facing the projector? If facing the projector did you use the snap-on diffuser? You should have. I have an i1DisplayLT and find when facing the screen (without the diffuser) it reads red Y (brightness) consistently lower than my other 3 sensors. So when you calibrate to this sensor's readings you have to boost red, resulting in a slightly red push. This is a very commonly reported shortcoming of this sensor. I'm sure it varies somewhat from sample to sample, but generally it has a slight red push - meaning it underreads the brightness of red.
If you were using it facing the projector and using the diffuser (as you should), all bets are off as these diffusers are not color neutral. So, unless you have a method to account for the color shift of the diffuser, your results will probably not be too good.
I have 4 color meters: i1 Pro, i1DisplayLT, Progressive Labs C-5 and Minolta CL-200. The DisplayLT is IMO the least accurate of all so I never use it. Don't ask why I have so many meters. 
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Corleone88
Joined: 09 Dec 2006
Posts: 449
Location: France
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| Link Posted: Thu Jun 04, 2009 3:42 pm Post subject: |
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Well, the sensor (I1 Display 2) is facing the screen. I have a CRT pj (BG808) and I didn't know that you could face the projector but how do you place your sensor? Stuck in the middle of the screen?
Anyway, what is best? Facing the screen or the pj?
Are you telling me that whatever I do with my Eye one Display 2, i would never get my colours right? 
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Citation4444
Joined: 17 Sep 2008
Posts: 59
Location: North GA Mountains
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| Link Posted: Thu Jun 04, 2009 4:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Corleone88 wrote: | | Well, the sensor (I1 Display 2) is facing the screen. I have a CRT pj (BG808) and I didn't know that you could face the projector but how do you place your sensor? Stuck in the middle of the screen? |
Place your sensor as close to the screen as you can and directly facing the projector.
| Corleone88 wrote: | | Anyway, what is best? Facing the screen or the pj? |
It depends on how bright your projector is. Facing the screen is generally better because it takes into account any color shift due to the screen. However, with CRT's lower light levels most sensors won't have enough light for accurate readings at the lower brightness levels. And, with CRT's the lower brightness levels are very important because gamma corrections are required to get an appropriate gamma curve. One solution, if you have the means to do it, is to determine the screen offset and use that to compensate the readings when facing the projector. When facing the projector, the light levels are much higher so that the sensor can be more accurate. In the case of the display2, the problem is the diffuser must be accounted for as I've said. Another solution is to borrow a known better meter, such as an i1 Pro and profile your Display2 to that meter. I don't know what software you're using, but HCFR and Calman have this feature.
| Corleone88 wrote: | | Are you telling me that whatever I do with my Eye one Display 2, i would never get my colours right? |
I don't want to tell you that, but if you're getting obviously bad visual results (assuming you're doing everything properly) you'll have to do something different. In this case, you'll either have to find a way to adjust your readings or use another meter.
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Citation4444
Joined: 17 Sep 2008
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Location: North GA Mountains
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| Link Posted: Thu Jun 04, 2009 4:19 pm Post subject: |
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I don't mean to imply that all display2 or displayLT meters are bad as that is obviously not the case. Many people are getting very good calibrations using these meters. In my case, as I've said, my displayLT slightly under-reads red levels. The resulting calibration using it is still very pleasing; in fact, some people might even prefer it due to the slightly more colorful facial tones. My experience is with my DLP projector, which has very oversaturated R and G primaries. I have not tried my displayLT with either of my CRT's, but I expect it would perform better with the CRT's.
So, I guess what I'm saying, is that you make absolutely sure you know how to use the software so that the proper calibration tables are selected and that you're doing everything else right.
If you have a very obvious reddish image, my first inclination is that you're doing something wrong. After making sure you're doing it right, then begin to suspect your meter.
Bob
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Nashou66
Joined: 12 Jan 2007
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Location: West Seneca NY
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| Link Posted: Thu Jun 04, 2009 8:35 pm Post subject: |
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I actually bouhgt a new Eye One D2 from Spectracal and did not use it till about 8 months later, it was off and was reading too much red so everything had a greenish yellow tint to it. Those Probes are great when new but after some time they need to be replaced. If you have someone who has a better probe you can borrow it and profile your probe to their probe. But this would have to be done again over time.
Athanasios
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ecrabb
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Joined: 13 Mar 2006
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Location: Utah
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| Link Posted: Thu Jun 04, 2009 9:05 pm Post subject: |
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Man, 8 months and i1d2 was out of whack?!?! Mine is almost that old now, too I think.
I figured an annual check and slight tweak would be adequate for this kind of equipment. What is it about the sensors in these instruments that they are so unstable? Would they drift in a temp/humidity controlled environment, and if so... What is changing about the value so much that the drift results in an obvious shift to another color?
I guess I just realized that I don't know the mechanism by which a colorimeter like the i1 actually senses light wavelength/amplitude.
SC
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Nashou66
Joined: 12 Jan 2007
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| Link Posted: Thu Jun 04, 2009 9:20 pm Post subject: |
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I was told this by the guys at Spectracal. They say the Eye one new is a very good sensor but after a year you should purchase a new one. It only has tree sensors compared to the 100 diode type sensors of the Eye1 Pro, these can be sent back and re-calibrated where it is not worth it for the D2. I am going pt go with the Eye1 pro, Spectracal guys are very cool and tested my D2 for me and it was off, that was why i was having trouble with the Blend set up.
For my set up they think the EYE1 pro is better since I would need more accurate reading between sessions since it will take more time for me to dial in both PJ's.
The D2 is stil a great sensor if you plan to do all your calibrating right away instead of over time.
Here is some info form the Faq's
| kal wrote: | Which Meter Is Right for Me?
Many meters are available for greyscale and colour calibration. What follows below is a short list of meters recommended by CurtPalme.com.
Colorimeters, Spectroradiometers: What's the difference and why do I care?
A tristimulus colorimeter measures the color dynamics of a display by using three separate meters. Each of the three meters sits behind a filter that isolates a particular color. Using a tristimulus colorimeter is conceptually equivalent to using a normal white light meter and putting different filters on it for measuring different colors. The filters in a TriStim are modeled, and the results weighted, to mimic the human eye's response to Red, Blue and Green.
A spectroradiometer (also called a spectrophotometer) works by sampling the spectrum in very small bands and then using an industry standard formula to calculate the Red, Blue and Green response.
The Spyder2, EyeOne Display 2 / LT, Chroma 5, Hubble, and the Klein K-10 are colorimeters, the EyeOne Pro is a spectroradiometer.
Each technology has its advantages, and each has its drawbacks. We'll list these below.
Most of the very bad meters that clutter the world, delivering unreliable and wildly inaccurate results, are tristimulus colorimeters. That is because colorimeters can be manufactured very cheaply. But anyone who has made it through the first exercise in the first chapter in a logic book knows that just because bad meters are colorimeters, that does not mean all colorimeters are bad meters. Designed and manufactured correctly, either technology can provide excellent results. The underlying technology employed is not the way to judge a meter.
Budget Meters:
Budget meters are typically what home users on a budget will consider for calibration use. They do not have a program for National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST) re-certification to ensure that they remain accurate. In fact, some of the cheaper ones are not individually calibrated to begin with (as we mention below). They are filter based meters so they will drift over time and should be replaced every few years for accuracy.
Spyder1/2/3 meters
The Spyder meters typically delivers results that are not reliable enough to be used for display calibration. Approximately 1/3 of Spyder units seem to be very accurate. The next 1/3 are slightly off. The last third are considerably more inaccurate. Unfortunately there's no way to know how your Spyder unit rates unless you have a known accurate meter to compare it against. Therefore most calibration experts do not recommend that the Spyder be used as you simply don't know what sort of results to expect unless you've measured your Spyder against a known correct meter.
The advantage of the Spyder is cost: It can be had for under $70. For the amount of time you're going to spend doing calibration however, you're better off spending just a little more to get something that has some sort of guaranteed level of reliability. See our Spyder2 and Eye-One Sensor Comparison for more information and example graphs of readings done with these samples of these meters.
The Spyder meters cannot be NIST certified or re-calibrated.
The Spyder2 is supported by our Greyscale & Colour Calibration for Dummies guide and CalMAN.
EyeOne Display 2 / LT
 
The EyeOne Display 2/LT meter is the least expensive, reasonably accurate sensor recommended for home theater enthusiasts for display calibration. If you're the type of person that only will only be calibrating their own display rarely, is on a budget, and doesn't need absolute perfection, this is the meter for you.
The EyeOne Display 2 units sold through our site here at CurtPalme.com have a current calibration date so it is up to specs and has not drifted. The same cannot be said for EyeOne Display 2 units sold elsewhere: The EyeOne Display 2 meter may have been sitting around at distributors or in a storeroom for quite some time before being sold to you.
It is not temperature compensated so care must be taken when measuring on displays on which the temperature may vary (such as Plasmas). Care must also be taken to avoid having stray light hit the meter from the side. For this reason this meter will be more reliable in some situations as a contact meter (where the meter is placed against the display) instead of as a non-contact meter (for calibrating projectors). The meter reads very fast (much faster than the Spyder2) and also reads fairly low (ie: darker patterns) such that you're likely to get reasonable accurate readings all the way down to 20 IRE. If you require very accurate readings right down to very close to essentially black (0 IRE), consider the Hubble or Klein K-10 (see below).
The EyeOne Display 2 / LT cannot be NIST certified. It can be re-calibrated but the cost of recalibration is likely to be more expensive than just buying a new meter (which is calibrated at the factory).
The Eye-One Display 2 / LT is supported by our Greyscale & Colour Calibration for Dummies guide and CalMAN. Because SpectraCal is an OEM of X-rite, CalMAN however has access to a much lower interface in the meter functions and is more tightly integrated that any other software.
More information & specs on the EyeOne Display 2 »
Higher-End Meters:
Three higher-end meters are typically used for video display calibration: The EyeOne Pro (which you will sometimes see referred to as the "i1 Pro"), the Chroma 5, the Hubble, and the Klein K-10. The first three are manufactured by X-rite (as is the EyeOne Display 2 / LT), the latter is manufactured by Klein. All are excellent meters and provide great accuracy and are manufactured to X-rite's and Klein's high standards, so any of them will be robust and reliable. All pair extremely well with CalMAN Video Calibration Software as the authors are also is an OEM of X-rite so they have access to a much lower interface with many of these meters (as well as with the EyeOne Display 2 / LT) meaning that they get more out of the meter than other software possibly can. Other software (including ColorHCFR used in our Greyscale & Colour Calibration for Dummies guide) simply cannot go as deep into meter functions as they are not licenced to do so.
All of these high end meters meters can be NIST re-certified. They are supposed to be recertified once a year to stay in NIST spec. For personal use the NIST certification is not that big a deal but for the Pro who charges money, the meters had better be in certification.
The EyeOne Pro
The EyeOne Pro is an excellent meter for all uses. In addition to its superb accuracy the EyeOne is as accurate as most meters selling for thousands of dollars it is the most versatile meter available anywhere. No matter what kind of display you are calibrating CRT, plasma, LCD, front projector, rear projector you can calibrate it effectively with the EyeOne Pro. If you own only one meter, it should probably be an EyeOne Pro. If you own more than one meter, one of them should be an EyeOne Pro.
One drawback of the spectroradio technology used by the EyeOne Pro is that it is slow: It takes longer for each read to come back and update the software that you happen to be using. This means that performing a calibration can take longer as you spend more time waiting for the readings to update. The other drawback is that it is more expensive than the lower-end meters such as the Spyder2 and EyeOne Display 2 / LT. The EyeOne Pro is typically bundled with high end photography software not useful for home theater use, driving the price well over $1000. An an OEM of X-Rite, SpectraCal is uniquely positioned to offer the meter without this useless software for much less through CurtPalme.com(see here).
The EyeOne Pro is supported by our Greyscale & Colour Calibration for Dummies guide and CalMAN. CalMAN is tightly integrated with the EyeOne Pro, including (for example) such features as the ability to program the action button on the EyeOne Pro. Because SpectraCal is an OEM of X-rite, CalMAN has access to a much lower interface in the meter functions and is more tightly integrated that any other software.
Why use an EyeOne Pro instead of a less expensive pod colorimeter?
A pod device such as the Spyder2, Eye-One Display LT/2, Gamma 5, or Chroma 5 measures light through filters and estimates the color based on a relatively small number of sensors, usually three and sometimes a few more. The Eye-One Pro uses a holographic diffraction grating with a diode array (no filters to degrade) similar to what is found in laboratory grade instruments. The Eye-One Pro samples with 100 sensors instead of three and uses the internationally recognized scientific standard method from CIE to calculate the x and y coordinates from those samples. The end result is increased accuracy that remains accurate over time.
More information & specs on the EyeOne Pro» |
Athanasios
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Citation4444
Joined: 17 Sep 2008
Posts: 59
Location: North GA Mountains
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| Link Posted: Thu Jun 04, 2009 10:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Nashou66 wrote: | I actually bouhgt a new Eye One D2 from Spectracal and did not use it till about 8 months later, it was off and was reading too much red so everything had a greenish yellow tint to it. Those Probes are great when new but after some time they need to be replaced. If you have someone who has a better probe you can borrow it and profile your probe to their probe. But this would have to be done again over time.
Athanasios |
I'm not sure I believe this. In fact, I don't believe it. I've had a Progressive Labs C-5 (similar to the OEM one sold by SpectraCal, except it comes with a diffuser with calibration tables to account for the diffuser) and it has not changed its readings going on 3 years now. I make frequent calibrations with this meter on my projectors and others and if it changed I would notice it. Of course, I keep mine in a sealed case with a desiccant to control moisture which is what I think causes these things to change over time. My guess is your meter was off when new and you didn't discover it until you used it 8 months later. Either that or you didn't store it properly. Just my opinion, of course. By the way, I'm a long time CalMAN Pro user.
Bob
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Nashou66
Joined: 12 Jan 2007
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Corleone88
Joined: 09 Dec 2006
Posts: 449
Location: France
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| Link Posted: Fri Jun 05, 2009 8:04 am Post subject: |
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Ok back to me prb 
| Quote: | hmmm. Check the grey scale again on the Monitor you says looks good , and see if it reads the same as when you first did the calibration.
Athanasios
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I re-checked my calibration on my CRT TV and the results look exactly the same as 2 weeks ago: the picture looks great !
I'll try facing the pj instead of the screen this week-end and I'll come back to you for the results.
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Nashou66
Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16171
Location: West Seneca NY
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| Link Posted: Fri Jun 05, 2009 9:53 am Post subject: |
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| Corleone88 wrote: | Ok back to me prb
| Quote: | hmmm. Check the grey scale again on the Monitor you says looks good , and see if it reads the same as when you first did the calibration.
Athanasios
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I re-checked my calibration on my CRT TV and the results look exactly the same as 2 weeks ago: the picture looks great !
I'll try facing the pj instead of the screen this week-end and I'll come back to you for the results. |
Facing the screen is the best as Bob points out, This is because it takes into account the screen itself. So with a screen/projector system you are calibrating both, Projector and screen. IF you know your screen is a gain of 1 and perfectly white then you can get fair results facing the PJ with the diffusor on. But id give it another shot facing the screen.
First do a greyscale set up bye eye then do a full grey scale reading. then go through and calibrate.
Athansios
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Corleone88
Joined: 09 Dec 2006
Posts: 449
Location: France
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| Link Posted: Fri Jun 05, 2009 9:59 am Post subject: |
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Is it better to first adjust my BG808 (but with only R and B gains and cutoffs) or my Lumagen HDQ (gamut on 11 points) during greyscale calibration?
By the way with my Barco, is it better to set the output mode to PC (0-100IRE) or video (7.5-100) on my Lumagen?
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Nashou66
Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16171
Location: West Seneca NY
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| Link Posted: Fri Jun 05, 2009 10:11 am Post subject: |
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| Corleone88 wrote: | Is it better to first adjust my BG808 (but with only R and B gains and cutoffs) or my Lumagen HDQ (gamut on 11 points) during greyscale calibration?
By the way with my Barco, is it better to set the output mode to PC (0-100IRE) or video (7.5-100) on my Lumagen? |
Do the 808 first with the lumagen set to default.
For what level to set the out put at depends on what source that output is connected to. if it is a PC then use the PC level(0), if it is a Blu ray or dvd use Video(7.5)
After you do the greyscale with just the 808 then you can touch up with the lumagen. But i would first use the 11 point gamma if your low end is off. then after mess around with the color gamut but use it very sparingly.
Athanasios
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Citation4444
Joined: 17 Sep 2008
Posts: 59
Location: North GA Mountains
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| Link Posted: Fri Jun 05, 2009 2:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Nashou66 wrote: | The Progressive Labs C-5 is the Chroma 5 and yes it is better than the D2, its not the same as from what Spectracal told me. They and others have said the D2 is a throw away probe after it ages, unless you can profile it to another probe that is known to be good.
I'll PM you with what he told me.
Athanasios |
I PM's you back with what I was told. I'll stick with what I originally said as I don't think there's a fundamental physical difference in how these meters age.
Bob
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