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FAQ: Marquee HD Mods by DraganM
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mp20748



Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 5358
Location: Maryland

TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM


PostLink    Posted: Sat May 23, 2009 11:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote


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kal wrote:
mp20748 wrote:
Thumbs Up

A thumbsup from Mike Parker (the original creator of Marquee performance mods) is always a good thing! Smile

Kal



Someone bought this to my attention yesterday, and that I had giving a thumbs up to these being "Performance Mods"

I would just like to be clear that I'm not saying this work is a performance upgrade. In no way do I see changing caps as an performance mod.

I fully sanction this work as something that the Marquee could greatly benefit from because of it's age, mainly due to the most common parts leaking or loosing tolerance over the years.

In doing what is offered here, of course that would make for some image improvements, and that's because when caps leak or fail the noise level on the Video chain increases. That would also effect the image performance of the projector.

So in essence, this work offered here would more likely get the projector back to being where it was when new or in it's earlier years.

Would I or do I consider this work to be Performance... well, that's complicated, but it depends on what you were seing before and what changes were made in the image after the work was done.

Is it the same level of work that I was offering - no!



Let me explain more on this. Say on one of my neck board mods that was done the last two to three years. I replace out or add up to 23 components on each neck board.

On a 02 VIM, of the over 89 parts that I either replace out or add, 18 to 22 of them are inductors, which were not a part of the original design. One of the reason why these inductors were added to the circuit was to further Isolate the modified section from the noise already in the projectors rails.

And with these changes, almost all of the Chips and transistors in the video chain are replaced.


So to answer this question openly. I fully support what's going on here. I made the recommendation for it to happen. But keep in mind, I see this work more as RESTORATION rather Performance Modification.

And remember this as well, of the many years that I've been doing these mods, it was only when I got the the Mikron version that I would claim 1080P. Before then and after, I would never indicated a percentage of improvement - even with all the changes I've been making over the years, there's way too many variables out there that would make any claim I make useless.



So with this, hopefully no one would have a need to ask me anything else on this.

And to be clear again, I fully support this work..Thumbs Up
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Gino



Joined: 22 Apr 2006
Posts: 1363
Location: Trinity Beach, AUSTRALIA


PostLink    Posted: Sun May 24, 2009 7:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mp20748 wrote:
Gino wrote:
Dragan - Any idea on postage costs to Australia for 2 projector sets minus the neck boards? I'd want something with tracking.


You'll not need to send the VIM either. I'm sure I've mentioned that before.

The caps on the Marquee mods going back almost 4 years would have very special black tants. And right at the DC input to the VIM, it has special caps there. because the input has an inductor on each of it's 4 rails, it's important to stay with the caps that are already in there.

Please DO NOT CHANGE ANYTHING ON THE VIM OR NECK BOARDS!


Mike - As it mentions above:

The following critical boards are modified:

* Convergence
* Stigmator Amp
* Vertical Deflection
* Horizontal Deflection
* Focus Module
* All 3 video neck boards

Was not planning on sending the VIM. I figure I should get all the others done, considering my machines are 2002-2003 models, that's 6 years of ageing. I'll still need to get back to you about the neckboards, still have yet to test them for noise

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draganm



Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 8756
Location: Colorado


PostLink    Posted: Sun May 24, 2009 8:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mp20748 wrote:
Please DO NOT CHANGE ANYTHING ON THE VIM OR NECK BOARDS!
take it easy Mike, It's pretty obvious from the posting that I don't touch the VIM, regardless of whether it's stock or modified and only replace the Alum. cans on the VNB's on original cards because it's a huge problem. What makes you think I'm mucking around with your circuits?

mp20748 wrote:
I fully sanction this work as something that the Marquee could greatly benefit from because of it's age, mainly due to the most common parts leaking or loosing tolerance over the years.In doing what is offered here, of course that would make for some image improvements, and that's because when caps leak or fail the noise level on the Video chain increases. That would also effect the image performance of the projector.
in addition to them leaking from aqe they weren't high quality to begin with.

mp20748 wrote:
So to answer this question openly. I fully support what's going on here. I made the recommendation for it to happen. But keep in mind, I see this work more as RESTORATION rather Performance Modification.
that depends really. Frankly a lot of people can't afford the MP video chain. On a stock machine the work I do makes a pretty big difference. With your VIM and neck-boards the difference will be less but there is still a difference. I know because I have had your stuff in my machine for years and noticed the improvement after doing all the other modules. Those other modules are important too. They focus, Converge, and control the beam deflection after all and that's kinda important.

mp20748 wrote:
So in essence, this work offered here would more likely get the projector back to being where it was when new or in it's earlier years.Would I or do I consider this work to be Performance... well, that's complicated, but it depends on what you were seing before and what changes were made in the image after the work was done.Is it the same level of work that I was offering - no!
well I'm glad you cleared that up. Seems like despite the fact that
1) I specifically avoided the boards you work on and
2) tried to do something that was complimentary to the MP video chain
I still managed to bruise your ego somehow?Confused It sounds like the person who " bought to my attention yesterday that I had giving a thumbs up to these being "Performance Mods" really pushed your buttons. I would really like to know which one of the forum Trolls sent you that e-mail? I've got a short list of suspects and I bet that person doesn't have either set of boards from you or me and is probably just laughing right now.

mp20748 wrote:
And to be clear again, I fully support this work..Thumbs Up
good to know, after the first few paragraphs in this post on page 2 I wasn't so sure


Gino wrote:
Dragan - Any idea on postage costs to Australia for 2 projector sets minus the neck boards? I'd want something with tracking.
Gino the shipping to/from Australia to US is expensive. Hate to say it but all boxed up one set weighs 21 pounds, maybe 19 minus the VNB's. One reason Is I ask people to send the entire rear heat-sink complete. Mostly to allow me to add Dieletric thermally conductive grease to the Transistors but also to minimize exposure to inexperienced hands. I know you've been in there before so maybe leaving behind the big chunk of aluminum would pay off in shipping. If you have MP neck-boards there's nothing I can add there.
If your seeing noise it could possibly be from one of the other modules? I've noticed a lot of small things after doing this work, for instance when doing convergence the lines move smoothly instead of jittering when you shift them with the arrow keys. Also, there's a small focus/sharpness improvement from both the deflection modules and Focus control re-builds. The only thing I haven't actually sat down and A/B'd is the Control module re-cap. I use low ESR high surge rated tant's there and while it has cured some performance issues with jumpy Convergence and loss of Synch on a couple of boards I haven't had a chance to really evaluate whether the picture is improved?

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Gino



Joined: 22 Apr 2006
Posts: 1363
Location: Trinity Beach, AUSTRALIA


PostLink    Posted: Sun May 24, 2009 10:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

draganm wrote:
Gino the shipping to/from Australia to US is expensive. Hate to say it but all boxed up one set weighs 21 pounds, maybe 19 minus the VNB's. One reason Is I ask people to send the entire rear heat-sink complete. Mostly to allow me to add Dieletric thermally conductive grease to the Transistors but also to minimize exposure to inexperienced hands. I know you've been in there before so maybe leaving behind the big chunk of aluminum would pay off in shipping. If you have MP neck-boards there's nothing I can add there.
If your seeing noise it could possibly be from one of the other modules? I've noticed a lot of small things after doing this work, for instance when doing convergence the lines move smoothly instead of jittering when you shift them with the arrow keys. Also, there's a small focus/sharpness improvement from both the deflection modules and Focus control re-builds. The only thing I haven't actually sat down and A/B'd is the Control module re-cap. I use low ESR high surge rated tant's there and while it has cured some performance issues with jumpy Convergence and loss of Synch on a couple of boards I haven't had a chance to really evaluate whether the picture is improved?

The noise I was referring to is a known issue to MP's latest neckboards, but I have yet to check for it because I havent had a chance to install them (my whole blend is in boxes at the moment, and why i think this an opportune time to get the mods done before setting everything up again).

Where abouts do you put the dielectric grease? Perhaps this is something I can do myself, I imagine not sending 2 rear hit sinks will save quite a lot on postage costs.

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Nashou66



Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16167
Location: West Seneca NY


PostLink    Posted: Sun May 24, 2009 10:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gino, just spread the grease very thinly on each transistor that would touche the heat sink insulator and on the insulator itself. Dont put too much. You only need enough to fill the void between the pours of the metal on the transistors and the heat sink insulator so that there is no space between the two parts allowing for full heat conduction to the heat sink.

And Dragan, don't get defensive to what your doing... it is a very needed service for older marquee's for sure.... What you and I do... P.O.O.G.E (Progressive Optimization Of Generic Electronics) benefits all electronic devices.

Athanasios

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"Republicans believe every day is the Fourth of July, but the Democrats believe every day is April 15." --- President Reagan

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Marquee Modifications and Performance Enhancement
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mp20748



Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 5358
Location: Maryland

TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM


PostLink    Posted: Sun May 24, 2009 10:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

draganm wrote:
take it easy Mike, It's pretty obvious from the posting that I don't touch the VIM, regardless of whether it's stock or modified and only replace the Alum. cans on the VNB's on original cards because it's a huge problem. What makes you think I'm mucking around with your circuits?


Whoa dude. I knew without a doubt that you'll not touch the mods. And there's also no reason to touch the neck boards. Those cans are


Quote:
in addition to them leaking from aqe they weren't high quality to begin with.


Yes, those caps were not the best quality, and that's why It's a good idea to replace and upgrade them as the projector ages. Would a better quality or more expensive cap yield better performance... I'll leave that one alone.


Quote:
that depends really. Frankly a lot of people can't afford the MP video chain. On a stock machine the work I do makes a pretty big difference. With your VIM and neck-boards the difference will be less but there is still a difference. I know because I have had your stuff in my machine for years and noticed the improvement after doing all the other modules. Those other modules are important too. They focus, Converge, and control the beam deflection after all and that's kinda important.


I'm not trying to take away from what you're offering here. But a fully modified later version of my mods, are only about a 2 to 3 hundred dollars different in price. Curt will be offering an affordable version, that will also be true 1080P capable.

Yes, the changes that you'll make will make a difference, but I would stay away from words like "big difference" if I were you. The differences noticed would depend on too many variances. With the main one being rather the caps in the customers projector were truly aged and diminished. Not all of the stock Marquees out there would have this problem. And of course, performance increase only depends if the setup is performance capable.

I'll go a little more in detail on this one... over the years I've been asked to do the same thing that you're offering here. I've not offered it because I've never been able to see a difference in the image by changing out the other caps in the projector when used with my later version mods. the only difference I've ever noticed was only from changing out the caps on the two 85 volt rails. Other than that, nothing. keep in mind, you have my very earliest version mods. Since then I lot of changes have been implemented. Of these changes, I'm using very sophisticated semis and caps. Just because a cap has a fancy name and price does not mean it will serve well in a circuit. I've also added pre-filtering to the rails with inductors. these inductors block out the noise from the main rails. And I'm also decoupling the video chain from the control module. Which is another source of the noise in the Marquee. that noise that I'm blocking there, no level of cap replacement would lower it. It is RF in nature and it rides the control rails. That's why the VIM has so many small inductors added to it.

The mods I've been doing the past 3 years is radically different from what you have. Even the ones before my VDC visit.



[quote]I still managed to bruise your ego somehow?Confused It sounds like the person who " bought to my attention yesterday that I had giving a thumbs up to these being "Performance Mods" really pushed your buttons[/quote

No sir. My ego is not bruised at all. There's a clear difference between our work.


Quote:
I would really like to know which one of the forum Trolls sent you that e-mail? I've got a short list of suspects and I bet that person doesn't have either set of boards from you or me and is probably just laughing right now.


People have the right to inquire and ask questions. I think the questions were appropriate. And I think it's good to bring some distinction here.


Last edited by mp20748 on Sun May 24, 2009 11:07 am; edited 1 time in total
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Nashou66



Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16167
Location: West Seneca NY


PostLink    Posted: Sun May 24, 2009 10:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

MP wrote:
Yes, those caps were not the best quality, and that's why It's a good idea to replace and upgrade them as the projector ages. Would a better quality or more expensive cap yield better performance... I'll leave that one alone.



You have said this many times But like to know why? From the little bit of testing for noise with different types of caps, the lower ESR and Higher ripple caps always had less compared to general Purpose types.


Athanasios

_________________
Don't blame your underwear for your crooked ass~ unknown Greek philosopher


"Republicans believe every day is the Fourth of July, but the Democrats believe every day is April 15." --- President Reagan

One Smart Dog!!!

Marquee High Performance Bellows now shipping!!
Marquee Modifications and Performance Enhancement
Marquee C-element and Bellow removal
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mp20748



Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 5358
Location: Maryland

TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM


PostLink    Posted: Sun May 24, 2009 11:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gino wrote:


Was not planning on sending the VIM. I figure I should get all the others done, considering my machines are 2002-2003 models, that's 6 years of ageing. I'll still need to get back to you about the neckboards, still have yet to test them for noise


There's no need to send the neck boards. It's not like I've changed out the number of components that's so obvious on those boards and forgot to change the most failing caps on the board. Not only do I change them out, i also upgrade the inductor that works with those caps. And that's why you'll want to stay with what you have already in there.

You have high bandwidth neck boards. One of the reasons that I've been having the noise issue with some of these boards is because it's hard to maintain that level of bandwidth on a previously designed PC board. In doing so, certain components have been chosen. So changing out these components could be a problem.



So there's no need to send any of your video chain boards. Why change out two 85 volt rail caps on your neck boards when it was already done not over a year ago. And why risk going with caps you're not sure it's going to increase your noise floor?


I have an upgrade for you, just go with doing everything else to your Marquees, and when you're getting closer to putting your projector back together, I'll have a neck board upgrade you'll really be interested in. They're super clean and noise free. And they even have better bandwidth than what you have already. I call them my FAST boards..



I have a set in my 9500. I'll be at Williams next week. We'll be doing some comparisons.. Wink
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mp20748



Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 5358
Location: Maryland

TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM


PostLink    Posted: Sun May 24, 2009 11:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nashou66 wrote:
MP wrote:
Yes, those caps were not the best quality, and that's why It's a good idea to replace and upgrade them as the projector ages. Would a better quality or more expensive cap yield better performance... I'll leave that one alone.



You have said this many times But like to know why? From the little bit of testing for noise with different types of caps, the lower ESR and Higher ripple caps always had less compared to general Purpose types.


Athanasios


That depends on the circuit.

Lower ESR caps makes perfect sense in audio gear. In these circuits that we're dealing with, it's not the ripple or ESR so much that we're concerned with, it's the high frequency component. That's why when you look at TSE's new neck board design, you're not going to see a fancy cap. He's doing exactly what I'm talking about here. he's using standard caps, but look very careful at the pull-up caps or the caps directly on the chips +/- feed. there's a combination of caps at each chips +/-

Those are what I call nicely designed decoupling circuits. Putting fancy and expensive caps in power supplies and rails does really little when the real problem is decoupling and keeping the circuits well isolated with various small value caps right at the device.

We sometime think audio, but when dealing with video circuits, things are really different. For instance, on one of my VIMs, on each of the first stage op amps, there's 9 to 10 different value caps right at the +/- feed to the circuit. the 4.7 resistors are still there and I place a tant, but it's the various low value caps (.001 - .1) around that chip that's really making the difference.



So, it's best to look at decoupling. And to do it right at the chips. When that's done well, the rails could operate fine with bargain caps. Though I still used pretty pricey caps in my work.
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Nashou66



Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16167
Location: West Seneca NY


PostLink    Posted: Sun May 24, 2009 12:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I understand what you mean for the Video chain parts of the marquee, and I see Scott also went with a different set of buffering caps at most chips than the
original design to get a wider filtering for the chips power supplies.

However on the non Video chain boards lots of noise is on all those boards and some of that noise can get to the power supplies on other boards that are in the Video chain. Here is where your filtering on the power rail inputs to each Video chain board of inductors and Capacitors addresses that, But what is wrong with also lowering the Noise on the boards that put possible noise to the Video chain boards? I think it help out Your video chain power rail filtering much more.
Another reason to lower the noise it stabilizes the scanning circuits which place the electron beams where they are suppose to be. With that Correct placement
it enhances the higher bandwidth Signals your Modified Video Chain Allows for. Putting a set of your Boards in an older marquee which has lost its ability
to properly lay down the video signals its sent through your mods is not worth it. It is like putting Formula One engine into chevy Citation? lots of power and the Chassis of the Citation can not handle it properly.

Sure some marquee's are fine and will not need new caps on every board now, but after running higher than it was used to resolutions we now run and with your 1080p@72 hz video Chain, the rest of the Marquee's electronics are being tested at there limits and some components that may have lasted a few more years' at normal resolutions may now fail. so you see Dragan's upgrade to parts that can handle and improve your video chain is a good thing.

Athanasios

_________________
Don't blame your underwear for your crooked ass~ unknown Greek philosopher


"Republicans believe every day is the Fourth of July, but the Democrats believe every day is April 15." --- President Reagan

One Smart Dog!!!

Marquee High Performance Bellows now shipping!!
Marquee Modifications and Performance Enhancement
Marquee C-element and Bellow removal
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mp20748



Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 5358
Location: Maryland

TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM


PostLink    Posted: Sun May 24, 2009 12:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nashou66 wrote:
I understand what you mean for the Video chain parts of the marquee, and I see Scott also went with a different set of buffering caps at most chips than the
original design to get a wider filtering for the chips power supplies.

However on the non Video chain boards lots of noise is on all those boards and some of that noise can get to the power supplies on other boards that are in the Video chain. Here is where your filtering on the power rail inputs to each Video chain board of inductors and Capacitors addresses that, But what is wrong with also lowering the Noise on the boards that put possible noise to the Video chain boards? I think it help out Your video chain power rail filtering much more.
Another reason to lower the noise it stabilizes the scanning circuits which place the electron beams where they are suppose to be. With that Correct placement
it enhances the higher bandwidth Signals your Modified Video Chain Allows for. Putting a set of your Boards in an older marquee which has lost its ability
to properly lay down the video signals its sent through your mods is not worth it. It is like putting Formula One engine into chevy Citation? lots of power and the Chassis of the Citation can not handle it properly.

Sure some marquee's are fine and will not need new caps on every board now, but after running higher than it was used to resolutions we now run and with your 1080p@72 hz video Chain, the rest of the Marquee's electronics are being tested at there limits and some components that may have lasted a few more years' at normal resolutions may now fail. so you see Dragan's upgrade to parts that can handle and improve your video chain is a good thing.

Athanasios


I agree with you here. The only thing I may differ on is what I'm doing with my mods. I do change out a few caps in other areas, those caps as you indicated CAN make changes for the overall image. But the truer and better claim would be to make it more stable and reliable. And yes, you will see improvements in other things like vertical, horizontal width stability/size, etc. But I'd rather stay away from image improvement claims. I'd not have that much of an improvement to make a claim for it.

But I also agree that every aged Marquee SHOULD have it's caps replaced. And when that's done it CAN improve the image easily, but it's something I'd rather stay away from as being an absolute.



My Ultra has very high hours, and so far I've only done the LVPS and HVPS. I'll be doing the HDM soon, and will get around to the other areas, but it'll mostly be for stability and reliability. I also add three inductors to the G2 rails inside the HVPS.


I think for the most part for everyone that owns a Marquee, they should have this work done. When done, it will greatly restore/improve their Marquee in a lot of ways. I just would not put image quality is THE real and only improvement.
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draganm



Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 8756
Location: Colorado


PostLink    Posted: Sun May 24, 2009 7:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mike I didn't have an issue with the points you made, but man that first post on page 2 was harsh. I spent pretty much the my entire Saturday working with a hot Iron and then at 2AM read something that sounds like " yeah this is good but I could train a moneky to do this"?Sad You are correct that the work I do is 90% restoration and 10% modification. I'll claim 10% because a true restoration uses the exact original parts. If you put steel belted tires on a 1970 Dodge Challenger instead of the original Polyglass it's not considered a restored car but modern tires really help the cars performance.

mp20748 wrote:
Yes, the changes that you'll make will make a difference, but I would stay away from words like "big difference" if I were you. The differences noticed would depend on too many variances. With the main one being rather the caps in the customers projector were truly aged and diminished. Not all of the stock Marquees out there would have this problem. And of course, performance increase only depends if the setup is performance capable.
OK, lets go with noticeable difference instead of Big difference. I have a set of boards coming in from someone with the MP video chain next week, this gentleman has the newest Mikron stuff in a 9500LC. He's sending everything except the power supply's, VIM, and VNB's. I will ask him to post his impressions and I specifically ask people not to fluff it up. If they see zero difference then I ask them to post that too. I know his Convergence is drifting so at the very least I will help eliminate that.

Nashou66 wrote:
However on the non Video chain boards lots of noise is on all those boards and some of that noise can get to the power supplies on other boards that are in the Video chain. Here is where your filtering on the power rail inputs to each Video chain board of inductors and Capacitors addresses that, But what is wrong with also lowering the Noise on the boards that put possible noise to the Video chain boards? I think it help out Your video chain power rail filtering much more.
Another reason to lower the noise it stabilizes the scanning circuits which place the electron beams where they are suppose to be. With that Correct placement it enhances the higher bandwidth Signals your Modified Video Chain Allows for. Putting a set of your Boards in an older marquee which has lost its ability to properly lay down the video signals its sent through your mods is not worth it. It is like putting Formula One engine into chevy Citation? lots of power and the Chassis of the Citation can not handle it properly.
thanks Nash, that's kind of how I see it too.


mp20748 wrote:
I agree with you here. The only thing I may differ on is what I'm doing with my mods. I do change out a few caps in other areas, those caps as you indicated CAN make changes for the overall image. But the truer and better claim would be to make it more stable and reliable. And yes, you will see improvements in other things like vertical, horizontal width stability/size, etc. But I'd rather stay away from image improvement claims. I'd not have that much of an improvement to make a claim for it.
I always though that convergence,size stability, not mention improved re-trace accuracy was part of the image? At any rate, I have a question regarding your belief that the other modules don't or can't improve the image quality. I can see that the 5 and 15 volt rails are shared by almost every module in the machine. Also, the HDM and Video neck-boards both use the +85VDC rail. On a stock unmodified[/b]Marqueee, where the video chain is not de-coupled from the rest of the machine, wouldn't leaky and noisy caps in the other modules more or less insure a negative impact on the Video chain?
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mp20748



Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 5358
Location: Maryland

TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM


PostLink    Posted: Sun May 24, 2009 8:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mp20748 wrote:
Yes, the changes that you'll make will make a difference, but I would stay away from words like "big difference" if I were you. The differences noticed would depend on too many variances. With the main one being rather the caps in the customers projector were truly aged and diminished. Not all of the stock Marquees out there would have this problem. And of course, performance increase only depends if the setup is performance capable.
Quote:
OK, lets go with noticeable difference instead of Big difference. I have a set of boards coming in from someone with the MP video chain next week, this gentleman has the newest Mikron stuff in a 9500LC. He's sending everything except the power supply's, VIM, and VNB's. I will ask him to post his impressions and I specifically ask people not to fluff it up. If they see zero difference then I ask them to post that too. I know his Convergence is drifting so at the very least I will help eliminate that.


I've been doing this for how long.... not sure myself, but i would say at least 6 years. In that time frame I've purchased 4 scopes and two spectrum analyzers, parts to include a ton of other stuff that would help me to better understand what's going on, what to do next and how to make things better. To this day, I'm still working at it.

What you are offering I agree 100% with your rule. When you say 90/10, I would say that would be a best rule to use. I only want to caution you away from claiming anything big, or making claims that are not reasonable. I ask that you trust me on this. I've been doing this long enough to know what I'm talking about. And I also know enough about the projector by now to say what I'm saying.

Also, the main things you'll want to address to make image change would definitely involve the LVPS and HVPS. those are the two main things.

Also keep in mind, that you'll need room to grow. You're without a doubt on the right track, but stay humble and open for ideas that would help along the way. believe it or not, every engineer or expert that helped me along the way, were all very humble people. I'm still trying to get there, but I'm better.




Quote:
I always though that convergence,size stability, not mention improved re-trace accuracy was part of the image? At any rate, I have a question regarding your belief that the other modules don't or can't improve the image quality. I can see that the 5 and 15 volt rails are shared by almost every module in the machine. Also, the HDM and Video neck-boards both use the +85VDC rail. On a stock unmodified[/b]Marqueee, where the video chain is not de-coupled from the rest of the machine, wouldn't leaky and noisy caps in the other modules more or less insure a negative impact on the Video chain?


Yes, there's a lot of rail sharing going on in there. But you'll have to actually measure the rails to know what's going on there. And that's why I add inductors, and that's why the neck boards are decoupled (isolated) using the two inductors on each neck board.

I would say wait until the Jury is in before you make any claims. Already and without seeing any improvements at all, what you're offering is a very needed fix or upgrade. The word mod to me somehow means changing something from it's original state.

I get some improvement when I also change the caps in a few other areas, but I've never seen that much of a change with my mods to state anything or to get into doing it myself. It will make a difference, but you'll need an expert on the other end to be able to discern and bring it out with the necessary skills



I'll do as promise and send you a few changes that will really make for some changes. And after you start also implementing them, I myself would feel more comfortable with the word MOD.

I don't anything personal. You'll find later that I'm here to help..Very Happy
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Gino



Joined: 22 Apr 2006
Posts: 1363
Location: Trinity Beach, AUSTRALIA


PostLink    Posted: Mon May 25, 2009 12:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mp20748 wrote:
There's no need to send the neck boards. It's not like I've changed out the number of components that's so obvious on those boards and forgot to change the most failing caps on the board. Not only do I change them out, i also upgrade the inductor that works with those caps. And that's why you'll want to stay with what you have already in there.

You have high bandwidth neck boards. One of the reasons that I've been having the noise issue with some of these boards is because it's hard to maintain that level of bandwidth on a previously designed PC board. In doing so, certain components have been chosen. So changing out these components could be a problem.

So there's no need to send any of your video chain boards. Why change out two 85 volt rail caps on your neck boards when it was already done not over a year ago. And why risk going with caps you're not sure it's going to increase your noise floor?

I have an upgrade for you, just go with doing everything else to your Marquees, and when you're getting closer to putting your projector back together, I'll have a neck board upgrade you'll really be interested in. They're super clean and noise free. And they even have better bandwidth than what you have already. I call them my FAST boards..

I have a set in my 9500. I'll be at Williams next week. We'll be doing some comparisons.. Wink


Mike, I think something's been lost in translation. I have never had any intention of sending Dragan any of my highly modded VIM's or VNB's. No need to worry. I want Dragan to mod the other boards that you haven't touched because I think there is some benefit to be had, not necessarily performance as you say, but more maintenance and reliability and stability, which I think are very important anyway.

Am very interested to hear about your FAST boards though, will contact you later on when the time comes. Thumbs Up

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kal
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Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 15743
Location: Ottawa, Canada

TV/Projector: JVC DLA-RS56


PostLink    Posted: Mon May 25, 2009 3:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mp20748 wrote:
I do change out a few caps in other areas, those caps as you indicated CAN make changes for the overall image. But the truer and better claim would be to make it more stable and reliable. And yes, you will see improvements in other things like vertical, horizontal width stability/size, etc. But I'd rather stay away from image improvement claims. I'd not have that much of an improvement to make a claim for it.


Quote:
But I also agree that every aged Marquee SHOULD have it's caps replaced. And when that's done it CAN improve the image easily, but it's something I'd rather stay away from as being an absolute.


Quote:
I think for the most part for everyone that owns a Marquee, they should have this work done. When done, it will greatly restore/improve their Marquee in a lot of ways. I just would not put image quality is THE real and only improvement.


Mike, You can say what you want in your own sub-forum but remember that this is Dragan's product, and you're talking in his official product thread here. What he wants to say and do is his decision alone. IMHO, it's extremely poor taste to come into someone's product thread and start telling the owner that they should or shouldn't be making certain claims about their product. You wouldn't want someone to do that in your forum would you?

Kal

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mp20748



Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 5358
Location: Maryland

TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM


PostLink    Posted: Mon May 25, 2009 4:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kal wrote:
mp20748 wrote:
I do change out a few caps in other areas, those caps as you indicated CAN make changes for the overall image. But the truer and better claim would be to make it more stable and reliable. And yes, you will see improvements in other things like vertical, horizontal width stability/size, etc. But I'd rather stay away from image improvement claims. I'd not have that much of an improvement to make a claim for it.


Quote:
But I also agree that every aged Marquee SHOULD have it's caps replaced. And when that's done it CAN improve the image easily, but it's something I'd rather stay away from as being an absolute.


Quote:
I think for the most part for everyone that owns a Marquee, they should have this work done. When done, it will greatly restore/improve their Marquee in a lot of ways. I just would not put image quality is THE real and only improvement.


Mike, You can say what you want in your own sub-forum but remember that this is Dragan's product, and you're talking in his official product thread here. What he wants to say and do is his decision alone. IMHO, it's extremely poor taste to come into someone's product thread and start telling the owner that they should or shouldn't be making certain claims about their product. You wouldn't want someone to do that in your forum would you?

Kal


I got ya Kal. And you can clean this up if you want. But my attempt to clear something up has somehow lead to this.

dragenm can do whatever he wants, but I'm puzzled that I'm in the wrong or it's poor taste for me to clear something up, especially when it has some people confused as to it being what I'm doing or getting pretty much the same results.



As indicated so many times, I'm not against, I'm for this. In fact I recommended and encouraged it.

draganm wrote:
mp20748 wrote:
] So to answer this question openly. I fully support what's going on here. I made the recommendation for it to happen. But keep in mind, I see this work more as RESTORATION rather Performance Modification.

that depends really. Frankly a lot of people can't afford the MP video chain. On a stock machine the work I do makes a pretty big difference. With your VIM and neck-boards the difference will be less but there is still a difference. I know because I have had your stuff in my machine for years and noticed the improvement after doing all the other modules. Those other modules are important too. They focus, Converge, and control the beam deflection after all and that's kinda important.


Regardless of what things cost, this is not what I'm doing, nor will it yield the same results. And saying that a change WILL be achieved based on on an individuals opinion or observation is a bit much. I was really trying to clear this up, and to do so with my original intent for recommend this work ,and that is as Gino so well said it - Maintenance.

If there's anybody out there that should know about this, do you think I would qualify?
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kal
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Joined: 06 Mar 2006
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TV/Projector: JVC DLA-RS56


PostLink    Posted: Mon May 25, 2009 4:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mp20748 wrote:
... my attempt to clear something up has somehow lead to this. Dragenm can do whatever he wants, but I'm puzzled that I'm in the wrong or it's poor taste for me to clear something up, especially when it has some people confused as to it being what I'm doing or getting pretty much the same results.

Mike, I can't explain it any simpler other than it's not your place here to "clear something up". This is not your product/service. Dragan sells this product/service. What claims he makes about his product/service is none of your business. If someone was outright lying I wouldn't allow their product to be sold here in the first place. What you're essentially doing is standing in front of his "store" and telling everyone that goes in/out that what he's saying is not entirely true, a lot of "yeah but" statements. You're obviously trying to make ensure everyone understands that these aren't performance mods and Dragan doesn't agree. Say what you want elsewhere but stay out of refuting Dragan's claims in his official product thread that *his* potential customers are reading. If you don't understand why that's poor taste you shouldn't be in business yourself.

Kal

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draganm



Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 8756
Location: Colorado


PostLink    Posted: Mon May 25, 2009 5:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mike has posted his opinion on this and that's ok. I'm not bothered by the assertions he has made regarding what re-building and improving the other modules will or will not do. Like I said earlier, it's based on biased opinion's and speculations at this point. My opinion is obviously biased because it's my stuff and I'm proud of it. With all due to respect to MP's expertise, it's still speculation on his part because he hasn't taken a full set of my boards and put them in a machine on his bench yet. Frankly, we're comparing apple's and Oranges anyway since if you really want the most from your machine I would think my board package + an MP video chain would yield the biggest results.
In closing, I do not feel like persuing this argument here for the reasons outlined above. I will leave most of the future posts in this thread to my customers who can say what they like, good or bad, about what I do. In the end, their opinion is the only one that really matters.

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garyfritz



Joined: 08 Apr 2006
Posts: 10597
Location: Fort Collins, CO


PostLink    Posted: Mon May 25, 2009 9:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe an analogy would make it clearer:

MP's mods are like supercharging your old '66 Chevy. He makes fundamental modifications to the "engine" and soups up the performance considerably.

Dragan's mods are more like replacing the flat worn-out tires on the Chevy. Like MP says, it's "maintenance."

Will replacing the Chevy's tires improve the Chevy's performance? Absolutely!! Will they turn the Chevy into a supercharged performance car? No. The best results will be gained from doing the tires AND the supercharging, but the tires alone are a very worthwhile improvement. Errr, "maintenance."

Dragan's mods restore the projector to its original performance, maybe even a bit better. That will be a definite performance improvement over a projector with "flat" electrolytics. MP's mods take the projector beyond what it was originally designed to do, just like the supercharger does for the Chevy.

Dragan, would you say that's a fair description?
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draganm



Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 8756
Location: Colorado


PostLink    Posted: Mon May 25, 2009 10:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

that's pretty much spot on Gary, and how I have described what I do in all e-mails I sent to people who contacted me. Hopefully we can all agree on that too and not make this a competition. I actually tried really hard to avoid that from the very beginning.
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