Return to the CurtPalme.com main site CurtPalme.com Home Theater Forum
A forum with a sense of fun and community for Home Theater enthusiasts!
Products for Sale ] [ FAQ: Hooking it all up ] [ CRT Primer/FAQ ] [ Best/Worst CRT Projectors List ] [ Setup Tips & Manuals ] [ Advanced Procedures ] [ Newsletters ]

 
Forum FAQForum FAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist  Photo AlbumsPhoto Albums  RegisterRegister 
 MembershipClub Membership   ProfileProfile   Private MessagesPrivate Messages   Log inLog in 
Blu-ray disc release list and must-have titles. Buy the latest and best Blu-ray titles to show off in your home theater!

Grey Scale adjustment, recommendations. Graphs attached

 
Post new topic   Reply to topic   Printer-friendly view    CurtPalme.com Forum Index -> CRT Projectors
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
barco_75



Joined: 14 Jan 2009
Posts: 167
Location: Chicago


PostLink    Posted: Sun May 12, 2013 8:26 pm    Post subject: Grey Scale adjustment, recommendations. Graphs attached Reply with quote


        Register to remove this ad. It's free!
I performed Kal's greyscale for dummies calibration last night. I'm trying to interpurt my results and make adjustments. My results are attached. I had to defocus the blue too much to make the blue levels get closeer to the red and green levels. I also ran out of RGB Highend adjustment on the blue and still couldn't get the 70 IRE levels balanced. I was about 100% on Red and Green but 60% or so on Blue.

I have a gamma x attached to the computer feed from my HDFury. I turned the Gamma X all the way down. Based on the results it doesn't even look like boosting the gamma would help. The gamma is low on most IRE levels. Question is how should I fix these issues? I was playing around with the G2 levels and I don't think I have that right. Looks like I need to turn up the Blue G2? Is this a good assesment?

Also, when adjusting the G2, I ignored the Barco 808 graphics RGB lights on the green and instead try to get the green, blue, and red to all light up at the same time when increasing the brightness. Contrast was set at 60%. I had to turn the green g2 down and the green tube face is still lite up when the red and blue are off. I see the whole face of the green phoshere lite up with strange diagonal lines in all directions. These lines never show up on the screen but I don't get the same effect on the blue and red. Is this normal? I'm guessing my issues with calibration are impoper G2 levels. Looking for recommendations for adjustments based on the attached graphs

I'm also using a Monaco Optix XR Pro meter, Color HCFR and AVH CD



RGB Levels.jpg
 Description:
 Filesize:  129.68 KB
 Viewed:  6049 Time(s)

RGB Levels.jpg



luminance.jpg
 Description:
 Filesize:  116.02 KB
 Viewed:  6049 Time(s)

luminance.jpg



Gamma.jpg
 Description:
 Filesize:  143.6 KB
 Viewed:  6049 Time(s)

Gamma.jpg


Back to top
Nashou66



Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16167
Location: West Seneca NY


PostLink    Posted: Sun May 12, 2013 9:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Try to De focus blue a few clicks. then re do Greyscale and see how it looks.

Also lower G2 for green till you can not see the raster. Those lines are usually associated with too high a G2.

But once you set Green G2 never adjust it again, just do red and Blue.

Nashou

_________________
Don't blame your underwear for your crooked ass~ unknown Greek philosopher


"Republicans believe every day is the Fourth of July, but the Democrats believe every day is April 15." --- President Reagan

One Smart Dog!!!

Marquee High Performance Bellows now shipping!!
Marquee Modifications and Performance Enhancement
Marquee C-element and Bellow removal
Back to top
View user's photo album (1 photos)
barco_75



Joined: 14 Jan 2009
Posts: 167
Location: Chicago


PostLink    Posted: Sun May 12, 2013 10:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I turned the g2 down further on the green. When showing 0 IRE, The lines went away and raster disappeared unless I blast the brightness to 100% and it not as noticeable as what it once was. See attached photos for before and after G2 adjustment. When I turned the g2 on the green down so it is barely lite, the blue and red are super bright at 100% brightness. This seems to indicate to me that my g2's are way out of adjustment. You can't trust the Barco LED's!! Does this make sense? Sounds like I need to lower the green, blue, and red with the blue and red turned down much more than the green. Is there a recommended brightness and contrast settings when using the 0 IRE to adjust the G2 just until you can see the rasters?

I don't think I should defocus the blue anymore. I actually need to focus it. It's so unfocused that the width of a blue line that is normally 1/4" wide is about 3/4" wide. I can't converge the image well with the blue so out of focus. I get several blue highlights popping out when watching an image.



P5120621.JPG
 Description:
Green tube after G2 adjustment, g2 fully lowered, 100% brightness with 0 IRE
 Filesize:  174.32 KB
 Viewed:  6006 Time(s)

P5120621.JPG



P5120597.JPG
 Description:
Green tube before G2 adjustment, 32% brightness with 0 IRE.
 Filesize:  179.13 KB
 Viewed:  6006 Time(s)

P5120597.JPG


Back to top
Ile



Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 1491
Location: Jyväskylä, Finland


PostLink    Posted: Mon May 13, 2013 8:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

barco_75 wrote:
Is there a recommended brightness and contrast settings when using the 0 IRE to adjust the G2 just until you can see the rasters?

Warm up your projector least 30 minutes before adjustment.
Select 6500K color balance from menu, this set custom white and -black adjustments to defaults.
Project 0IRE (video black)
Brightness 50
Contrast 0

Adjust so that all rasters are barely visible at tubes face and all colors have same intensity.

Green phosphorus takes few minutes to lost it's "memory". So if you have projected something bright or lower too bright raster, it takes while that shadow fades away.

Then use custom white and -black adjustments for fine tuning while calibrating.
Back to top
barco_75



Joined: 14 Jan 2009
Posts: 167
Location: Chicago


PostLink    Posted: Tue May 14, 2013 4:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It hard to visualize getting all the crt's at the same intensity. I'm having the most difuculty with green because at 0 ire green doesn't seem to be lighting up unless I turn it up so much that I see the diagonal lines on the phosphor which I thought is bad. Is it possible to use the meter to balance red green blue? If project 100 ire (or another level) I can adjust each g2 so they are all balanced. Does this work?
Back to top
Ile



Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 1491
Location: Jyväskylä, Finland


PostLink    Posted: Tue May 14, 2013 12:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

barco_75 wrote:
I'm having the most difuculty with green because at 0 ire green doesn't seem to be lighting up unless I turn it up so much that I see the diagonal lines on the phosphor which I thought is bad.
Doesn't sound right.

Swap green rgb amp to red, to see if problem follows.
Back to top
barco_75



Joined: 14 Jan 2009
Posts: 167
Location: Chicago


PostLink    Posted: Tue May 14, 2013 3:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ile, good point. You have to turn the pot on the green alot more than the red or green to make a difference in the brightness. Maybe the green rgb amp is not up to spec.
Back to top
CIR Engineering



Joined: 25 Aug 2008
Posts: 3870
Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany


PostLink    Posted: Tue May 14, 2013 6:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It seems like you may have a shorted tube. Since you're in Chicago you could bring it by and I could plug up the CR7000 tube tester and tell you. Or you could hire me to come out and test it while the tube is in the machine. I can repair internal shorts as long as it's not shorted to the heater.

Try swapping neck cards first, but it really may be a tube.

craigr

_________________
JETI Specbos 1211 Spectroradiometer
Photo Research PR-650 Spectroradiometer
Klein K10-A Laboratory Grade Colorimeter
Murideo Fresco SIX-G HDMI 2.x Multimedia Generator
Murideo Fresco SIX-A HDMI 2.x Analyzer
*NEW Light Illusion LightSpace XPT Pro Version 10.x Color Calibration Software
ChromaPure3 Pro Color Calibration Software
Sencore CR7000 CRT Tube Analyzer / Rejuvenater
Audyssey MultEQ Pro Audio Calibration System
Authorized Dealer for Lumagen & just about everything else Wink
www.CIR-Engineering.com - craigr@cir-engineering.com
Phone: 865-405-6892
Back to top
Ile



Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 1491
Location: Jyväskylä, Finland


PostLink    Posted: Wed May 15, 2013 7:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shorted tube would be also my guess, but it's easy to swap rgb amps first to be sure.
808 have amp stage in those aluminium boxes over neck cards.
http://i.imgur.com/lMa2L.jpg
If it's BG808s then amp stage is in neck boards.

Tube tester/conditioner is way to go. But if it's not available also tapping tubes neck gently and running Barcos service menus run crt in cycles function might blow short away.
This can took several hours of flashing full white image.
Back to top
barco_75



Joined: 14 Jan 2009
Posts: 167
Location: Chicago


PostLink    Posted: Wed May 15, 2013 1:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've haven't tried either yet. I didn't even know there was an issue because generally everything has been working fine. What causes the short? Is it dust inside the tube? What could happen if this issue doesn't get corrected?

Craig, if I remove the tube do you need all the components taken off of it to test it or repair it? I was hoping not to have to redo all the settings. What's the cost to test and if needed repair if I bring you the tube?
Back to top
CIR Engineering



Joined: 25 Aug 2008
Posts: 3870
Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany


PostLink    Posted: Wed May 15, 2013 1:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

barco_75 wrote:
I've haven't tried either yet. I didn't even know there was an issue because generally everything has been working fine. What causes the short? Is it dust inside the tube? What could happen if this issue doesn't get corrected?

Craig, if I remove the tube do you need all the components taken off of it to test it or repair it? I was hoping not to have to redo all the settings. What's the cost to test and if needed repair if I bring you the tube?

Try swapping neck cards first and see if the problem follows the neck card to another tube. For example, swap cards between the red and green tubes. See if green is then fine and red has a problem. If yes, than the problem is the neck card on green.

If you still have a problem than it's most likely a short in the tube. Shorts can happen form many reasons. Sometimes there is a tiny piece of dirt between terminals (most likely). Sometimes shorts are dynamic shorts. With a dynamic short the tube only has problems once it's warmed up. Sometimes it may take just a few minutes of running for a dynamic short, sometimes it can take hours. What happens with a dynamic short is that when the tube gets warm the wire leads inside the tube neck bend slightly and a pair makes contact. With a dynamic short I can find them quickly with the tester by running the tube slightly hotter than usual.

Sometimes shorts can be fixed and sometimes not. Dynamic shorts are more difficult. Shorts to the G1 can usually be fixed. Shorts to the heater can almost never be fixed because fixing them would also blow out the heater. However, you can modify a projector heater stage to run the tube with a heater short with an independent power supply.

If you want to bring the tube over you can keep all the hardware on the tube, no need to remove it all. I'd charge $40 for a tube like yours.

craigr

_________________
JETI Specbos 1211 Spectroradiometer
Photo Research PR-650 Spectroradiometer
Klein K10-A Laboratory Grade Colorimeter
Murideo Fresco SIX-G HDMI 2.x Multimedia Generator
Murideo Fresco SIX-A HDMI 2.x Analyzer
*NEW Light Illusion LightSpace XPT Pro Version 10.x Color Calibration Software
ChromaPure3 Pro Color Calibration Software
Sencore CR7000 CRT Tube Analyzer / Rejuvenater
Audyssey MultEQ Pro Audio Calibration System
Authorized Dealer for Lumagen & just about everything else Wink
www.CIR-Engineering.com - craigr@cir-engineering.com
Phone: 865-405-6892
Back to top
barco_75



Joined: 14 Jan 2009
Posts: 167
Location: Chicago


PostLink    Posted: Wed May 15, 2013 1:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If I was to guess, I bet it is a short between terminals. I assume this is dirt or bad contact between the socket and end terminals on the tube. I don't have signs of a dynamic short. The weird diagonal lines are always present on the tube face. The projector was completely disassembled and then reassembled by the previous owner to remove it from his ceiling so I bet the socket is just not properly seated.
Back to top
CIR Engineering



Joined: 25 Aug 2008
Posts: 3870
Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany


PostLink    Posted: Wed May 15, 2013 2:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shorts I am describing are shorts inside the tube its self in and around the gun, not on the socket outside the tube.

You do need to explore the possibility of the neck cards including the sockets first. Try the board swap between tubes and see if you learn anything.

craigr

_________________
JETI Specbos 1211 Spectroradiometer
Photo Research PR-650 Spectroradiometer
Klein K10-A Laboratory Grade Colorimeter
Murideo Fresco SIX-G HDMI 2.x Multimedia Generator
Murideo Fresco SIX-A HDMI 2.x Analyzer
*NEW Light Illusion LightSpace XPT Pro Version 10.x Color Calibration Software
ChromaPure3 Pro Color Calibration Software
Sencore CR7000 CRT Tube Analyzer / Rejuvenater
Audyssey MultEQ Pro Audio Calibration System
Authorized Dealer for Lumagen & just about everything else Wink
www.CIR-Engineering.com - craigr@cir-engineering.com
Phone: 865-405-6892
Back to top
CIR Engineering



Joined: 25 Aug 2008
Posts: 3870
Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany


PostLink    Posted: Wed May 15, 2013 2:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What's the model number of that tube?

craigr

_________________
JETI Specbos 1211 Spectroradiometer
Photo Research PR-650 Spectroradiometer
Klein K10-A Laboratory Grade Colorimeter
Murideo Fresco SIX-G HDMI 2.x Multimedia Generator
Murideo Fresco SIX-A HDMI 2.x Analyzer
*NEW Light Illusion LightSpace XPT Pro Version 10.x Color Calibration Software
ChromaPure3 Pro Color Calibration Software
Sencore CR7000 CRT Tube Analyzer / Rejuvenater
Audyssey MultEQ Pro Audio Calibration System
Authorized Dealer for Lumagen & just about everything else Wink
www.CIR-Engineering.com - craigr@cir-engineering.com
Phone: 865-405-6892
Back to top
barco_75



Joined: 14 Jan 2009
Posts: 167
Location: Chicago


PostLink    Posted: Wed Nov 20, 2013 5:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So... I've been living with the poor greyscale for quite some time. I'm planning to see Craig this week to test with the CR7000 as well as do a few other things for me. Anyhow, after removing the tube, I notice the metal fingered clip which rests on the bowl of the CRT is totally bent (see photo). The finger on the far left is totally bent 180 degrees. The rest of them don't align and are bent at various angles. How important is it that these rest on the back bowl of the CRT? Could this be causing my issues?


photo-4.JPG
 Description:
 Filesize:  390.94 KB
 Viewed:  5343 Time(s)

photo-4.JPG


Back to top
Hulio



Joined: 15 Apr 2006
Posts: 342
Location: Belgium


PostLink    Posted: Wed Nov 20, 2013 11:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That grounded clamp is the aquadag of the picture tube ( drives the electrostatic fields away ) and should have nothing to do with your problem.
Craig rocks and will solve your issue.
By the way, to prevent scratching the lenses or tube faces, it is always safer to remove the lenses before removing the tubes.
Or at least extend the back barrel of the lens with the center focus knob to its maximum.
Just a hint...
Back to top
stridsvognen
Guest







PostLink    Posted: Wed Nov 20, 2013 11:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

barco_75 wrote:
It hard to visualize getting all the crt's at the same intensity. I'm having the most difuculty with green because at 0 ire green doesn't seem to be lighting up unless I turn it up so much that I see the diagonal lines on the phosphor which I thought is bad. Is it possible to use the meter to balance red green blue? If project 100 ire (or another level) I can adjust each g2 so they are all balanced. Does this work?


Sounds to me like your adjusting the wrong ende there..

If its a bit like the Marquee the G2 is your black level, and you can display a 2% ire pattern and adjust the G2 till its just visible.

I guess the Barco also have a contrast and brightness starting point around 50 or so.

after that you can display a 100% IRE and adjust your Gain, or whatever Barco call it.

And are you sure your black and white is set right before you started to adjust the balance.?

Is the fury set to 16-235, or 0-255, and whats your source outputting.?
Back to top
kabuby77



Joined: 28 Mar 2011
Posts: 147
Location: Italy


PostLink    Posted: Wed Nov 20, 2013 3:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whatt's the size of your test patterns? full screen?
Back to top
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic   Printer-friendly view    CurtPalme.com Forum Index -> CRT Projectors All times are GMT
Page 1 of 1
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum