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Continued Blending of the Longbow's & Now 9 " Swap!
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Nashou66



Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16170
Location: West Seneca NY


PostLink    Posted: Sat Apr 25, 2009 12:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote


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MikeEby wrote:
Athanasios,

Are your Ultras color filtered? If not could that be an issue with getting the grayscale correct?

Mike


Mike this is way beyond getting it correct, With out relying on the probe all is fine I can get it close but as you know to blend you need to be almost exact for both PJ's. Look at the pic's where you don't see the blend zone. The colors look great!!
But in some very light scenes and some very bright scenes the zone is very noticeable. those are the areas where you need two like calibrated PJ's. When I first noticed the problem I sent Spectracal an email and he gave me a list of things to check
in the Program, thats when i realized I was using the 0 setting for voltage when my BD player most likely is 7.5.
That is when i went through a quick grey scale check on my one PJ and things were more inline with how the probe should
be reading. I thought that was it, problem solved. So the next day i went to do the other PJ and was having the same original issue. The probe was showing too much blue and getting it all right with the RGB bar graphs and the bulls eye had everything looking greenish/yellowish. So i went to just measure the PJ that tracked well with Calman the night before, it was now showing too much blue again!!! I am sure i did not change a thing and went with the default setting as when i got nice readings. So now I conclude my probe is acting erraticly. It was purchased in november, calibrated by Spectracal in Oct.
So now its not reading properly, it has to be the probe, no way am I this inept at doing the grey scale I did my other two PJ's at least a dozen times combined with the other Display 2 probe i had using HCFR. Also i tried HCFR with this probe and the same thing.

And if I use the color corrected lens things would really be greenish . IHad no problems on my Ceiling mounted 8000 with HD8's. I did that and the HD144 8500 i had on the floor, when i was stacking and both came fairly close, the 8000 had a larger blue hump. that is another thing this shows a blue sag, not a hump if i use go against my eye sight and do what the probe says. defocusing blue makes the blue poush worse according to the probe but visually it looks dead on.
Again must be the probe.


This looks great and it was done bye eye for both PJ's if i used the setting according tot he probe all the whites would have a greenish or yellowish tinge.



Athanasios

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Last edited by Nashou66 on Sat Apr 25, 2009 12:32 am; edited 1 time in total
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Mr. Green



Joined: 23 Feb 2007
Posts: 1394
Location: Calgary

TV/Projector: Marquee 9501LC / NEC 9PG+


PostLink    Posted: Sat Apr 25, 2009 12:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't think the Longbows came with colored lenses, just clear ones. He might have changed them out though...
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Nashou66



Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16170
Location: West Seneca NY


PostLink    Posted: Wed May 27, 2009 6:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok Guy's here is an Update from Greece, SpectraCal just had the chance to do testing on my D2 and it was reading too much red that was actually there. That is why i could not get the correct calibration and I knew it wasn't the PJ or me Very Happy . Now The very Nice L.A Heberlein offered to me a new D2 or i could upgrade for the difference to the EYE ONE which after hearing about me set up he suggested. what should i do guys? Get the new D2 and save some scratch or spend a bit more and go for the E1. I think he will give me the pre may price since this issue started back before then.

Athanasios

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Nashou66



Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16170
Location: West Seneca NY


PostLink    Posted: Wed Aug 19, 2009 9:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok I posted this Over on AVS in the Screen shot war, Just wanted to update it here too. Getting Closer Boys!!!

Ok have been messing around some more with Rodan-O-Blend Very Happy I still have the magnetics to work on and have not touched Schleimflug at all. Also I still have to color/grayscale match both Pj's. On some shots you'll see the Blend Zone but it is a bit more visible in person, opposite from the last time where the pics revealed it more.

Using a Fiji FinePix F10 set to Night mode which allows long exposers
it figures out automatically.

These are from DVE and the New Spears & whatchamacalit disc Wink





On some of these you'll see the blend Zone, this is the Spears disc:
















Athanasios

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Nashou66



Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16170
Location: West Seneca NY


PostLink    Posted: Thu Aug 27, 2009 4:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well I redid the set up but with out the magnets, I was thinking about the motion artifacts in the Blend zone and figured it had to be linearity. So i pulled out the ruler and began measuring The circles were way off on the right sides of both PJ's so I began using the C and S linearity to get them as close as possible then i also used the Vertical Linearity to center the image. vertically as I realized it was off and so were the Grid squares in size from top to bottom. One thing I did different on the Scaler side was while doing the convergence i kept all adjustments off so the entire image was on each side of the screen, i did each PJ individually with no convergence in the zone between the two. After I was done i figured the two inner circles in the corners of the grids shold be close in over lap, well they were apart by at least an inch an a half. I guess this is to be expected with no zoom involved. But from past blend attempts I noticed that in the source menu there was a 1:1 pixel selection and from memory it zoomed the image quite a bit. So when I selected it i noticed that the image zoomed right to where it should be for a blend, it was off ever so slightly. So with out going into the windows adjustments where the zoom is( except for the image pan for each side to line up at the outer edge) brought up both sides of the image and began to converge the overlap zone to each other measuring the circle all around as i went to make sure no linearity was needed, it was on the right PJ to bring in the one side of the circle as it was about 3/4 inch larger in radius toward the right side. I fixed this as best I could with out altering the rest of the placement of the image. I then put up the smaller 1.5 inch grids frm the AVSHD disc to to the final touch up. Now i went into the Keyers for the blending and turned on each side of the blend and then turned on the edge blend guides and lined up the green to the reds to make it yellow. I wound up with a 207 pixel blend zone. And now there is no heat wave effect in the blend zone and the zone is almost completely gone maybe about 90% there!!!

Here a few pics of the results, i think the contrast modulation needs some touch up as well as the color matching but damn it looks the best i have seen so far.

















Still More work to do but I am learning a lot, thanks to Mike Parker and Bob Stephan for there help with all this, And Gino too for the color Matching Idea.

Athanasios

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Mark_A_W



Joined: 15 Mar 2006
Posts: 3068
Location: Sunny Melbourne Australia


PostLink    Posted: Thu Aug 27, 2009 4:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

To continue here rather than the screenshot thread...

You stated that the cheapest way to a proper blend is the upcoming TV-One blend units for ~$3k the pair.


No one has managed to blend 1080p video using a PC?
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huggy



Joined: 02 Aug 2008
Posts: 927
Location: Melbourne,Australia


PostLink    Posted: Thu Aug 27, 2009 7:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mark_A_W wrote:
To continue here rather than the screenshot thread...

You stated that the cheapest way to a proper blend is the upcoming TV-One blend units for ~$3k the pair.


No one has managed to blend 1080p video using a PC?


Mark

I was discussing this very thing with Russ last night and he did mention people trying it with VLC in the past,but not sure of the outcome.

I found this on the topic


http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/archive/index.php/t-774500.html



Dave
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KellenerSptM5



Joined: 08 Mar 2009
Posts: 198



PostLink    Posted: Thu Aug 27, 2009 11:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wouldn't say that is the cheapest, I know of a couple solutions that would be <500 and would work just as well for a home theater environment....

huggy wrote:
Mark_A_W wrote:
To continue here rather than the screenshot thread...

You stated that the cheapest way to a proper blend is the upcoming TV-One blend units for ~$3k the pair.


No one has managed to blend 1080p video using a PC?


Mark

I was discussing this very thing with Russ last night and he did mention people trying it with VLC in the past,but not sure of the outcome.

I found this on the topic


http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/archive/index.php/t-774500.html



Dave
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jantje112



Joined: 17 Jul 2006
Posts: 327



PostLink    Posted: Thu Aug 27, 2009 11:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

KellenerSptM5 wrote:
I wouldn't say that is the cheapest, I know of a couple solutions that would be <500 and would work just as well for a home theater environment....




Tell me more?
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Nashou66



Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16170
Location: West Seneca NY


PostLink    Posted: Thu Aug 27, 2009 12:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MadMrH has tried in the past with PC blending and it still just doesn't cut it, but that was over a year ago or two so maybe now it might be plausible. But having a dedicated Unit with a custom blending algorithm and now the 1:1 pixel mapping on these units I say its the best solution for ease of use.

The hardest part of blending is Projector set up, by far the most important step, I bet blending digital's would be super easy with these units as with a CRT you have so many variables dealing with Geometry to get perfect for a seamless blend with no motion anomaly's through the Blend Zone.
I must say the Longbows are looking sweet though, and I still have not done individual zone RGB focus or Schliemphluge yet!!!

But This topic should be in another thread, i usually don't mind but I'm very Proud of finally getting it as close as I have and want to keep the discussions about the Longbows and the Tv-One products.

Athanasios

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KellenerSptM5



Joined: 08 Mar 2009
Posts: 198



PostLink    Posted: Thu Aug 27, 2009 1:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well the simplest and cheapest way would be a HTPC fitted with a Wildcat Realizm graphics card. Many people tried the older Nvidia cards to no avail. The wildcat cards were built to be utilized for soft edge blending and I can say that they make the blend area invisible. I tested the HTPC solution and the only reason I'm not using it currently is the lack of ability to hook up external devices. I wanted to be able to hook a PS3 up to it and you can't do that. So I watched eBay for a while and picked up a dedicated blend processor by Panoram for less than 100. It was a model specially made for CRTs unlike most current models. It also handles resolutions beyond 1080p with ease. Everyone basically uses the same technology that is in my processor, they were the pioneers of edge blending. So it can be done on the cheap you just need to try things people are not trying.


jantje112 wrote:
KellenerSptM5 wrote:
I wouldn't say that is the cheapest, I know of a couple solutions that would be <500 and would work just as well for a home theater environment....




Tell me more?
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CRT_Ben



Joined: 28 Aug 2006
Posts: 1684
Location: Northern Virginia


PostLink    Posted: Thu Aug 27, 2009 2:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

KellenerSptM5 wrote:
Well the simplest and cheapest way would be a HTPC fitted with a Wildcat Realizm graphics card. Many people tried the older Nvidia cards to no avail. The wildcat cards were built to be utilized for soft edge blending and I can say that they make the blend area invisible. I tested the HTPC solution and the only reason I'm not using it currently is the lack of ability to hook up external devices. I wanted to be able to hook a PS3 up to it and you can't do that. So I watched eBay for a while and picked up a dedicated blend processor by Panoram for less than 100. It was a model specially made for CRTs unlike most current models. It also handles resolutions beyond 1080p with ease. Everyone basically uses the same technology that is in my processor, they were the pioneers of edge blending. So it can be done on the cheap you just need to try things people are not trying.


jantje112 wrote:
KellenerSptM5 wrote:
I wouldn't say that is the cheapest, I know of a couple solutions that would be <500 and would work just as well for a home theater environment....




Tell me more?


I think you'll have a wide audience talking about blending on the cheap (myself included) - can you spin off a thread about your blending experiences, so we can have a more linear discussion about those methods?
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Nashou66



Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16170
Location: West Seneca NY


PostLink    Posted: Thu Aug 27, 2009 2:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRT_Ben wrote:
KellenerSptM5 wrote:
Well the simplest and cheapest way would be a HTPC fitted with a Wildcat Realizm graphics card. Many people tried the older Nvidia cards to no avail. The wildcat cards were built to be utilized for soft edge blending and I can say that they make the blend area invisible. I tested the HTPC solution and the only reason I'm not using it currently is the lack of ability to hook up external devices. I wanted to be able to hook a PS3 up to it and you can't do that. So I watched eBay for a while and picked up a dedicated blend processor by Panoram for less than 100. It was a model specially made for CRTs unlike most current models. It also handles resolutions beyond 1080p with ease. Everyone basically uses the same technology that is in my processor, they were the pioneers of edge blending. So it can be done on the cheap you just need to try things people are not trying.


jantje112 wrote:
KellenerSptM5 wrote:
I wouldn't say that is the cheapest, I know of a couple solutions that would be <500 and would work just as well for a home theater environment....




Tell me more?


I think you'll have a wide audience talking about blending on the cheap (myself included) - can you spin off a thread about your blending experiences, so we can have a more linear discussion about those methods?


thanks Ben Wink

I looked at the Panorama and a few others there are many edge blend units but none as versatile as the Tv-Ones or the DiVentix 8022, and actually for the highest DVI bandwidth solution only Tv-One can deliver( they have pushed up to 200MHZ pixel clock before the display gave out), the others are analog out and can go just as high but no digital out, and many of us now have internal HDMI cards that would take advantage of this.

Athanasios

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Nashou66



Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16170
Location: West Seneca NY


PostLink    Posted: Fri Sep 04, 2009 4:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well After getting the best results so far with the temporary floor mount set up I decided to begin the move up top. I have used the pulley mount last time for my Marquee 8000 but this time i want to add a bit more adjustment possibilities in case i decide to upgrade the 8500's to 9500LC's someday(which i will when i get bored).
So i decided to take some pics of the mess that is my theater right now.



Nice thing for now about having the 1.78 screen is when i get the blend up i can position the 2.40 image to
where i want it hight wise to make sure the Projectors are not in the way of the view from the last row of bar stool seating .



Here you can see where i had my LG Bh200 Dual format player and the two C2-2250 blend units and moome MUX splitter/HDCP Striper . As you can see by the cables going to the Vim's I was comparing the difference between the older moome hdmi card and the analog outs of the C2-2250, the C2-2250 was better.



Bottom half of the pulley mount, the rope was too short that it came with(23 feet) so i need to get a 50 foot piece.



Top half of mount secured to the Superstrut....The top part of the mount just barely fits above the drop ceiling!!!



Close up of upper Superstrutt attached to actual floor joist of the first floor of the house,
they run parallel to the lower superstrutt section. I had to go through two layers of insulation to
get to them.



Cutting the strut and the threaded rod and getting them up there was a chore and my back and shoulders are killing me!!! I dread doing the second Mount. I'll have time to recuperate as I plan to dismantle the second Longbow to
swap the blue and red tubes around so the reds are at center and blues on the outer edges where if I can't get focus perfect it wont matter as they will be defocused anyhow for proper greyscale.

Nashou

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Nashou66



Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16170
Location: West Seneca NY


PostLink    Posted: Fri Sep 04, 2009 5:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Had to go out and buy some more rope for the pulley system mount, it only had 21 feet so 50 was a bit over kill but did the job perfectly.

Rope threaded through pulley system.



Ottoman is where i need to roll it over to



Perfect flip to the Ottoman



After I secured the bottom mount section to the Projector i put an Eye hook into the floor to hold the rope
while I put on the bolts to hold the two mount sections together.

Eye hook in Floor



Projector mounted!!



Now I have a few things to do before i begin mounting the 2nd Pj, take down the Marquee 8000, and swap the Blue and red tubes in the second Longbow.

But for the next one I will first mount the long threaded rod to the bottom of the PJ mount then put them to the top.
as you can see in this next pic its not easy balancing a PJ with one hand and trying to get the other to thread a washer and nut under the mount frame in close quarters.

Threaded rod connected to top section, next time I'll put the rod to the bottom section first!!!




Athanasios

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PaulB



Joined: 26 Oct 2007
Posts: 359
Location: Bonnie (but rainy) Scotland


PostLink    Posted: Fri Sep 04, 2009 7:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

How did you work out the exact position to mount the pj Athanasios?

Having them on the floor mount meant you could move them left / right, forward and back until they were in the exact position but how did you translate the ground position to the ceiling mount position? Just measured it from the screen to the (say) leg bolts? How did you make sure it was square, again, measurements?

Thanks,

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Nashou66



Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16170
Location: West Seneca NY


PostLink    Posted: Fri Sep 04, 2009 7:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

PaulB wrote:
How did you work out the exact position to mount the pj Athanasios?

Having them on the floor mount meant you could move them left / right, forward and back until they were in the exact position but how did you translate the ground position to the ceiling mount position? Just measured it from the screen to the (say) leg bolts? How did you make sure it was square, again, measurements?

Thanks,


H Paul, Before i decided to take pics I measured from the side wall to the mounting hole distance of the PJ on the floor,
For the front location i did it different since the screen i have is a pull down and it moves when i put the ruler to it. So i hung a string with a washer at the end. I moved the position of the string on the ceiling till the left front right mounting hole of the
PJ lined up to the string...that point on the ceiling is where i need to get the mounts hole that matches the PJ's hole where the mount connects to. From there i measured the other holes in the PJ bottom and transfered them to the ceiling, i had insulation there so i just marked that as a temp solution.

Now the mounting of the Superstrutt really didn't have to be precise, just close enough so for later upgrades i would have adjustability in either front to back and side to side vectors. Except for the side to side mount hole location, the superstrutt has to be at the same side to side location of the mount holes as this is where the top part will be attached to the superstrutt.
Now the original markings are gone from moving the insulation to mount the rails, so from here i have to do the string mthod one more time. once i get the other PJ up is when i will do the fine tuning of the mount as the marquee pulley mounts have
the ability to move the bottom section around as there are slots and not holes in the frame.


I was going take a string going across the room from wall to wall with it lined up to the front of the PJ's, but decided against it as you have to keep moving the ladder around and it would get in the way and possibly be pulled off it's original location.


Athanasios

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PaulB



Joined: 26 Oct 2007
Posts: 359
Location: Bonnie (but rainy) Scotland


PostLink    Posted: Sat Sep 05, 2009 5:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Excellent Athanasios, thank you for that.

You're exceptionally busy with these Longbows, no idea how you find the time to do it all. I'm so impressed by what you've done, I'm green with envy - I've still not got round to mounting my single 9500, hoping to do so over the next couple of weeks (after I've finished those hated magnets!), thus the query on mounting.

All the best Athanasios, you've breathed new life into this hobby for a lot of us - good luck getting that blend finalised, looking forward to reading your final "thats it, I've done it!" post (although knowing you, things will never quite be finished!) Thumbs Up

Paul

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Nashou66



Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16170
Location: West Seneca NY


PostLink    Posted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 12:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tim Martin sent me this link http://www.warplanes.com/ah-64d-longbow-model-helicopter-742.asp, he said i need one for my coffee table, I told him I should get two and hang them next to the marquee Longbows!!! What ya think?








Thumbs Up Very Happy

nashou!!!!!

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Don't blame your underwear for your crooked ass~ unknown Greek philosopher


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AnalogRocks
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Joined: 08 Mar 2006
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Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada

TV/Projector: Sony 1252Q, AMPRO 4000G


PostLink    Posted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 1:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

We should get a game of Longbow going AFTER you get them blended. I can't remember what year it came out but it would be fun on a 12 foot wide screen. Thumbs Up
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