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Gary M.
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PostLink    Posted: Wed Dec 17, 2008 5:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote


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Person99 wrote:
WTS wrote:
and the winner would be? Dave care to take a guess.


Depends upon how many and who is in the room and the variety of content (and which content they like). People that liked the "pop" of high ANSI CR would pick the Marantz. Others liking more the "film" look would gravitate toward the G90s or the RS20. It is really a toss up which would win.

I personally think the 3000 would finish last, but I honestly think it would not be that far behind which is saying alot for a PJ that cost just a bit over $2000 in a room full of PJs that run over double its price.

If you've only got about $2300 to spend, the 3000 does make a compelling case. I really dig the fact also that it is the first digital that can do a CIA set up. But, dust blobs and other LCD-specific issues do worry me with LCDs.

Thank god you can turn off the awful frame interpolation on it though--if you couldn't, it would be a non-starter.


Dave, I think you have lost it dude

you have seen the RS2, pretty good right? it didn't come close to my 1352LC:

http://www.hometheaterforum.com/htf/display-devices-tvs-projectors/271226-htf-official-hardware-review-jvc-dla-hd100-rs2-d-ila-projector.html

to get the RS2 to near the CR of the 1352LC I had to use ND filters which lowered the ANSI

I am set to do a review of the RS20 in a week or 2, I look forward to seeing how far things have come between the 2 models but the entire deal killer for me with these units is motion, just UGH! Thumbs Down

right now is the time to move to high-end 9" CRT, not digitals Wink

-Gary
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WanMan



Joined: 19 Mar 2006
Posts: 10261



PostLink    Posted: Wed Dec 17, 2008 10:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Person99 wrote:
WanMan wrote:
While I like the aspect of good ANSI contrast, my concern was with generating good ANSI contrast by attempting to modulate the light source that effective impacts the entire picture.


This post demonstrates that you do not know what ANSI CR is.

ANSI CR is inherent to the panel/light engine design--irises and modulating light sources cannot effect it. They only effect on/off CR. The ANSI is always the same regardless of the scene. DLP is still the ANSI king, no DI or light source tricks can improve the ANSI CR of a projector.

After re-reading what I said I have to wonder what planet I was on when I wrote it. Dumb. Embarassed

My concern with DI is that it effects the entire panel (image) and as a result cannot afford the luxury of presenting less light to darker portions of a scene like a black suit, dark shadow, etc. and when a DI attempts to modulate light in scenes where very dark and very bright portions exist it'll often choose a mediocre setting whereby the end result is as if the DI is of no benefit.

I agree that DLP is the ANSI contrast king and have seen this in person--when I was not distracted by all those damn rainbows. Razz But, I can present several scenes from favorite movies where I would imagine the DI would be worthless, and in some instances present the DI as of no benefit and reveal the imaging system's poor device-level contrast.

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CRT_Ben



Joined: 28 Aug 2006
Posts: 1684
Location: Northern Virginia


PostLink    Posted: Wed Dec 17, 2008 2:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gary M. wrote:

to get the RS2 to near the CR of the 1352LC I had to use ND filters which lowered the ANSI


Wrong on both counts...putting a ND filter in front of any projector will never affect CR. Not on/off CR, not ANSI CR. All it will do is make the entire picture dimmer to make black darker. A dimmable light source and Dynamic Irises can affect on/off CR but not ANSI CR, as Dave points out. The only thing that can ever improve ANSI is the panel / imager itself.
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CRT_Ben



Joined: 28 Aug 2006
Posts: 1684
Location: Northern Virginia


PostLink    Posted: Wed Dec 17, 2008 3:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gary M. wrote:
you have seen the RS2, pretty good right? it didn't come close to my 1352LC:


Hmm, that's not what you said in your review:

"While I would be 99% happy to own and use the HD100/RS2 any day of the week, I demand the absolute ultimate performance in a couple areas that the HD100/RS2 is just slightly lacking in."

99% isn't close?


Gary M. wrote:
I am set to do a review of the RS20 in a week or 2, I look forward to seeing how far things have come between the 2 models but the entire deal killer for me with these units is motion, just UGH! Thumbs Down


Again, not what you said in your review:

"The second concern that I found was a very slight smearing of the image in some rare cases, this was mostly a concern on test patterns and on video games. The image ghosting and smear that I am referring to is similar to a LCD monitor that lacks adequate response time to deal with movement, but please don't let me confuse anyone with this matter and it's severity. I never once saw this during any critical viewing of films or other content save for the games and test patterns mentioned. I only mention it due to my extreme pickiness and it is there in some very slight instances."

You talk a tough CRT talk here, but your own reviews speak much differently...
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Gary M.
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PostLink    Posted: Wed Dec 17, 2008 5:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRT_Ben wrote:
Gary M. wrote:

to get the RS2 to near the CR of the 1352LC I had to use ND filters which lowered the ANSI


Wrong on both counts...putting a ND filter in front of any projector will never affect CR. Not on/off CR, not ANSI CR. All it will do is make the entire picture dimmer to make black darker. A dimmable light source and Dynamic Irises can affect on/off CR but not ANSI CR, as Dave points out. The only thing that can ever improve ANSI is the panel / imager itself.


you are dead wrong, it reduces the ANSI mostly due to reflections, verified, check AVS Forum

-Gary


Last edited by Gary M. on Wed Dec 17, 2008 5:51 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Gary M.
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PostLink    Posted: Wed Dec 17, 2008 5:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRT_Ben wrote:
Gary M. wrote:
you have seen the RS2, pretty good right? it didn't come close to my 1352LC:


Hmm, that's not what you said in your review:

"While I would be 99% happy to own and use the HD100/RS2 any day of the week, I demand the absolute ultimate performance in a couple areas that the HD100/RS2 is just slightly lacking in."

99% isn't close?


Gary M. wrote:
I am set to do a review of the RS20 in a week or 2, I look forward to seeing how far things have come between the 2 models but the entire deal killer for me with these units is motion, just UGH! Thumbs Down


Again, not what you said in your review:

"The second concern that I found was a very slight smearing of the image in some rare cases, this was mostly a concern on test patterns and on video games. The image ghosting and smear that I am referring to is similar to a LCD monitor that lacks adequate response time to deal with movement, but please don't let me confuse anyone with this matter and it's severity. I never once saw this during any critical viewing of films or other content save for the games and test patterns mentioned. I only mention it due to my extreme pickiness and it is there in some very slight instances."

You talk a tough CRT talk here, but your own reviews speak much differently...


hey jag-off why don't you quote me direct and complete, here is what I said:

While I would be 99% happy to own and use the HD100/RS2 any day of the week, I demand the absolute ultimate performance in a couple areas that the HD100/RS2 is just slightly lacking in. Those are: extreme absolute black levels, smoothness of image and handling of detail during movement. The two major areas are smoothness of the image and absolute black level, while the HD100/RS2 can't quite match the CRT yet in those areas, it comes very close at times and will only get better with each generation of product.

you want me to go off unhinged and say I could never live with the JVC because of those three issues in a professional review? I said it as nice as possible, in the end it was a easy choice for me to stay with the 1352LC at the time, I clearly laid out my misgivings with with the unit and it is as simple as it is right there

when I go for a display it must please me on test patterns, the JVC did not as I mentioned with motion, 99% of people could care less about test patterns, which is what I said in the review

get a clue and quit trying to tell me what I think Wink I said I would be 99% happy with the RS2, not 100% which I am with a perfectly functioning CRT, that last 1% is important to me and separates a good enjoyable image from a breathtaking knockout image

-Gary
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CRT_Ben



Joined: 28 Aug 2006
Posts: 1684
Location: Northern Virginia


PostLink    Posted: Wed Dec 17, 2008 7:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gary M. wrote:
you are dead wrong, it reduces the ANSI mostly due to reflections, verified, check AVS Forum
-Gary


I'm really hard pressed to believe that a single thin filter, presumably with quality optical coatings, really reduces ANSI by any measurable amount. Professional photographers use ND filters every day.

Aside from ANSI, I'm dying to know how a ND filter increases on/off contrast as you stated in your post above. Please, tell me.
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CRT_Ben



Joined: 28 Aug 2006
Posts: 1684
Location: Northern Virginia


PostLink    Posted: Wed Dec 17, 2008 7:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had a really long post drawn up, but...you know what they say, when you're arguing with an idiot, nobody can tell who's who Laughing
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Person99



Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4901
Location: Flower Mound, TX


PostLink    Posted: Wed Dec 17, 2008 11:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gary M. wrote:
Person99 wrote:
WTS wrote:
and the winner would be? Dave care to take a guess.


Depends upon how many and who is in the room and the variety of content (and which content they like). People that liked the "pop" of high ANSI CR would pick the Marantz. Others liking more the "film" look would gravitate toward the G90s or the RS20. It is really a toss up which would win.

I personally think the 3000 would finish last, but I honestly think it would not be that far behind which is saying alot for a PJ that cost just a bit over $2000 in a room full of PJs that run over double its price.

If you've only got about $2300 to spend, the 3000 does make a compelling case. I really dig the fact also that it is the first digital that can do a CIA set up. But, dust blobs and other LCD-specific issues do worry me with LCDs.

Thank god you can turn off the awful frame interpolation on it though--if you couldn't, it would be a non-starter.


Dave, I think you have lost it dude

you have seen the RS2, pretty good right? it didn't come close to my 1352LC:

http://www.hometheaterforum.com/htf/display-devices-tvs-projectors/271226-htf-official-hardware-review-jvc-dla-hd100-rs2-d-ila-projector.html

to get the RS2 to near the CR of the 1352LC I had to use ND filters which lowered the ANSI


It depends upon what you mean by "didn't come close". All things considered, I have to agree with Guy Kuo that it is an overall better PJ than the XG.

I looked at your review, I did not see CIE charts, grayscale tracking etc comparisons. Yes, the XG can be made to do a better black--but that is not the only picture quality parameter. The RS2 will beat the XG in:
- uniformity
- corner focus
- resolving power (higher MTF)
- sharpness
- ANSI CR (bright scenes will have more pop)
- full field on/off CR
- overall brightness

And all to boot, it can drive a 10' scope screen.

One comment about my last two points. The black on the RS2 is not "bad" by any stretch. I've watched several CRT owners move to PJs with only 2300:1 on/off and say that the digital PJs black level did not bother them. Many digitals with poor on/off have excellent shadow details--ones that exceed even gamma modified CRTs.

Now, if you put in Ice Age or Happy Feet or that kind of thing, this is where the CRT will show its weakness. The price you pay for the uber-black is a snowy scene that is a bit dingy and not "sort of blinding" like real snow.

So pick your poison. I'm not going to look at one image quality parameter, I'm going to look at all of them.

I for one was always down on high ANSI CR. But now I'm like Art, I've experienced high ANSI CR (my current PJ is 647:1) and I LOOOOOVE it!!! In fact, I would not use any projector with an ANSI CR less than around 500:1 anymore--I simply love the pop and dimensionality.

Gary M. wrote:
I am set to do a review of the RS20 in a week or 2, I look forward to seeing how far things have come between the 2 models but the entire deal killer for me with these units is motion, just UGH! Thumbs Down

right now is the time to move to high-end 9" CRT, not digitals Wink

-Gary


I would not exactly call you an objective observer--so I'll have my bag of salt ready.

I have no doubt that if I put an RS2 or RS20 properly set up and in a 10' wide CIH config and you set up an XG however you want and we brought in a bunch of people, the JVC would be the clear winner despite you standing to the side saying "but the XG has better full field black!".

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Dave

A train station is where the train stops. A bus station is where the bus stops. On my desk, I have a work station....
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Person99



Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4901
Location: Flower Mound, TX


PostLink    Posted: Wed Dec 17, 2008 11:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gary M. wrote:
CRT_Ben wrote:
Gary M. wrote:

to get the RS2 to near the CR of the 1352LC I had to use ND filters which lowered the ANSI


Wrong on both counts...putting a ND filter in front of any projector will never affect CR. Not on/off CR, not ANSI CR. All it will do is make the entire picture dimmer to make black darker. A dimmable light source and Dynamic Irises can affect on/off CR but not ANSI CR, as Dave points out. The only thing that can ever improve ANSI is the panel / imager itself.


you are dead wrong, it reduces the ANSI mostly due to reflections, verified, check AVS Forum

-Gary


Actually Ben, he is correct on this one. ND filters do reduce ANSI. And given the JVCs low (for a digital) ANSI CR, putting an ND on it would drop the ANSI CR to only a little better than a CRT.

But I think obsession with one image quality parameter is shortsighted and stupid. Focusing on full field black and ignoring a host of other things is simply ridiculous and that is what Gary keeps doing.

My current PJ will beat any XG any day in uniformity, sharpness, and color accuracy as well as having over 4 times the ANSI CR. Why these things less important to some than full field black I will never know.

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Dave

A train station is where the train stops. A bus station is where the bus stops. On my desk, I have a work station....


Last edited by Person99 on Wed Dec 17, 2008 11:53 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Person99



Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4901
Location: Flower Mound, TX


PostLink    Posted: Wed Dec 17, 2008 11:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

timf wrote:

Would it be a fair assumption to make that if an RS20 could possibly go head to head with a G90 that it would literally blow a BD808 unit out of the water as far as pq is concerned?


IMO if you saw a BD808 and an RS20 next to each other both properly set up you'd think the RS20 the considerably superior projector.

Digital tech is finally pretty much "there". It only gets better from here. Further they enable large scope screens and other fun things. Personally, unless your living is CRT, I don't know why anyone would be so down on this.

CRT has been the ROI leader. Four years ago, you used to have to spend $12,000 on a digital PJ that was comparable to a really good 8" machine. Now you pick up PJs that are better than a 9" for $5000-6000 and PJs that best an 8" for under $3000. Why is this so bad?!?!?!? Confused Confused Confused

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Dave

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timf



Joined: 07 Jul 2007
Posts: 102
Location: Adelaide South Australia


PostLink    Posted: Thu Dec 18, 2008 3:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Dave, pretty much what I thought you were going to say. At the moment I'm wrongly or rightly fixated on CR but the more I read the more I wonder if this really is or should be a deciding factor.

I'm not technically minded and whilst have a had a certain level of fun tweaking my CRT its not what i have a HT room for. I just want to enjoy the large sceeen experience and have as good as picture as I can get without the weight, size and (sometimes) issues of a CRT.

Here the HD750 is going for around $8.5k AUD which is a ton of money but worth it if its going to better what I have in the 808.
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Person99



Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4901
Location: Flower Mound, TX


PostLink    Posted: Thu Dec 18, 2008 3:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

timf wrote:
Thanks Dave, pretty much what I thought you were going to say. At the moment I'm wrongly or rightly fixated on CR but the more I read the more I wonder if this really is or should be a deciding factor.

I'm not technically minded and whilst have a had a certain level of fun tweaking my CRT its not what i have a HT room for. I just want to enjoy the large sceeen experience and have as good as picture as I can get without the weight, size and (sometimes) issues of a CRT.

Here the HD750 is going for around $8.5k AUD which is a ton of money but worth it if its going to better what I have in the 808.


Post on AVS that you want to see one in person in your area. You might find one.

Also, the RS2 is starting to show up used. In fact, there is one near me on AVS right now if you wanted me to go check out the panel alignment on it and he would ship to Oz.

Honestly, if you don't need full fade to black, the PJ that is the topic of this thread is not that bad at all and much cheaper. It looks a bit better than an AE2000 and you might be able to find one of those locally to see.

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WanMan



Joined: 19 Mar 2006
Posts: 10261



PostLink    Posted: Thu Dec 18, 2008 11:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRT_Ben wrote:
Gary M. wrote:

to get the RS2 to near the CR of the 1352LC I had to use ND filters which lowered the ANSI


Wrong on both counts...putting a ND filter in front of any projector will never affect CR. Not on/off CR, not ANSI CR. All it will do is make the entire picture dimmer to make black darker. A dimmable light source and Dynamic Irises can affect on/off CR but not ANSI CR, as Dave points out. The only thing that can ever improve ANSI is the panel / imager itself.


Correct! It will lower the Black Level, and having a low Black Level is one of the things I seek. I want black to be Black, not gray.

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WanMan



Joined: 19 Mar 2006
Posts: 10261



PostLink    Posted: Fri Dec 19, 2008 10:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What was the measured dynamic contrast ratio?
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Spanky Ham



Joined: 22 Mar 2006
Posts: 5643
Location: Comedy Central


PostLink    Posted: Mon Dec 22, 2008 4:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, I am going to disagree with Dave a little here. I haven't seen any of the new lower priced digitals, but I did see a couple of higher end digitals two years ago. To me, the on/off cr and motion issue is what keeps me in the CRT camp. That being said, I have seen Cineramax's three chip DLPs and I really only noticed the lack of on/off. I think the brightness of his setups compensated for the relative lack of on/off to a degree. I think if you are a CRT owner you should take a look if you are in the market for a new pj. The advantages might outweigh the disadvantages for you.

Dave,
I know you mention uniformity and brightness, but those can be mitigated by a Torus. There is a guy in Tennessee who has a Vutec UHG torus that is getting something like 30 instead of the 10 that most get. He missed it. Falcons still have achance
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nettwerkjohn



Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 887
Location: Nelson, sunshine capital of New Zealand


PostLink    Posted: Mon Dec 22, 2008 6:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

cliff

how does the panny compare to the ruby? we're about to re-bulb, but considering the cost of xenon bulbs, may just try a panny instead
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Gary M.
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PostLink    Posted: Sat Jan 10, 2009 1:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Person99 wrote:
Gary M. wrote:
Person99 wrote:
WTS wrote:
and the winner would be? Dave care to take a guess.


Depends upon how many and who is in the room and the variety of content (and which content they like). People that liked the "pop" of high ANSI CR would pick the Marantz. Others liking more the "film" look would gravitate toward the G90s or the RS20. It is really a toss up which would win.

I personally think the 3000 would finish last, but I honestly think it would not be that far behind which is saying alot for a PJ that cost just a bit over $2000 in a room full of PJs that run over double its price.

If you've only got about $2300 to spend, the 3000 does make a compelling case. I really dig the fact also that it is the first digital that can do a CIA set up. But, dust blobs and other LCD-specific issues do worry me with LCDs.

Thank god you can turn off the awful frame interpolation on it though--if you couldn't, it would be a non-starter.


Dave, I think you have lost it dude

you have seen the RS2, pretty good right? it didn't come close to my 1352LC:

http://www.hometheaterforum.com/htf/display-devices-tvs-projectors/271226-htf-official-hardware-review-jvc-dla-hd100-rs2-d-ila-projector.html

to get the RS2 to near the CR of the 1352LC I had to use ND filters which lowered the ANSI


It depends upon what you mean by "didn't come close". All things considered, I have to agree with Guy Kuo that it is an overall better PJ than the XG.

I looked at your review, I did not see CIE charts, grayscale tracking etc comparisons. Yes, the XG can be made to do a better black--but that is not the only picture quality parameter. The RS2 will beat the XG in:
- uniformity
- corner focus
- resolving power (higher MTF)
- sharpness
- ANSI CR (bright scenes will have more pop)
- full field on/off CR
- overall brightness



Dave, I sometimes wonder if you have ever had a properly setup CRT Crying or Very sad

either that or I can pull more out of a CRT, no way shape or form would I even consider replacing the XGLC I had with a RS2

-Gary
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garyfritz



Joined: 08 Apr 2006
Posts: 10939
Location: Fort Collins, CO


PostLink    Posted: Sat Jan 10, 2009 8:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gary, are you claiming your XGLC outperforms an RS2 in sharpness, ANSI CR, and overall brightness? Because I can't believe it. Some of those other areas (uniformity, corner focus, on/off CR, etc) might be as good with a really well-set-up CRT. But there's no way even an LC will top a good digital for e.g. ANSI CR.
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Gary M.
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PostLink    Posted: Sat Jan 10, 2009 8:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garyfritz wrote:
Gary, are you claiming your XGLC outperforms an RS2 in sharpness, ANSI CR, and overall brightness? Because I can't believe it. Some of those other areas (uniformity, corner focus, on/off CR, etc) might be as good with a really well-set-up CRT. But there's no way even an LC will top a good digital for e.g. ANSI CR.


let me put it this way, there wasn't one thing that the RS2 did better save for a bit extra sharpness that I would trade for my then XGLC

1)the black levels weren't even close without the ND filter, the ND filter then lowered ANSI on the RS2 and to be honest I did not find the RS2 all that much more poppy

2)my 1352LC displayed 1:1 resolving from center to all 4 corners, the HD134 lenses were so good that corner focus was perfect

3)I use a very small 83" wide 1.3 gain 2.40:1 screen(Draper M1300), brightness is not a issue at all with a XG on 50% contrast

4)the RS2 was sharper than the XGLC, but the difference was not was I was expecting, meaning it was much closer

5)color reproduction on the RS2 was murdered by the XGLC

that was my take, the RS2 was nice and I would be happy to own one, but when it comes to sitting down and enjoying a film (in a videophile type demanding fashion) the XGLC easily won

-Gary
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