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MYoung
Joined: 24 Feb 2007 Posts: 369 Location: Madison, WI
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Link Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 3:24 am Post subject: electrical wiring question |
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I'm wiring a room in my basement for running a CRT projector (likely a 1271Q or D50), an entry-level Sony 5.1 surround sound system (it states 900W, though I take it it's a marketing gimmick), and a PS3 and/or HTPC. The single circuit which I'm hoping will run all of that equipment is 15 amps. Nothing else will be on this circuit -- lights are on a different circuit. Being new to electrical wiring, I wasn't sure what gauge of wire to use. I did some "research" online and found someone mentioning that 14 gauge can be used with 15 amp circuits. I already started doing some wiring with 14 gauge but I'm now wondering if I should remove that and switch to 12 gauge wire now that I've read others saying that 14 gauge is okay for lighting, but not for more power hungry devices. In addition, after already buying the wire I see that the wire I'm attaching to (there's already wire leading to the breaker box for this circuit as it was a circuit I disabled to rip out some nasty floor, wall, and ceiling wood in this particular room) and that wire appears to be 12 gauge. I thought it was 14 gauge, though I should have checked for sure. Anyway, figured I'd ask if I should proceed with the 14 gauge or switch to 12 gauge before I go any further only to redo my work. Thanks!
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Curt Palme CRT Tech
Joined: 08 Mar 2006 Posts: 24301 Location: Langley, BC
TV/Projector: All of them!
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Link Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 3:30 am Post subject: |
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12 gauge is good for 20 amps. If you think you'll put in a kickass system down the road, then by all means, use 12. It's a bit stiffer wire and a bit harder to work with, shouldn't be too much more expensive.
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MYoung
Joined: 24 Feb 2007 Posts: 369 Location: Madison, WI
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Link Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 3:32 am Post subject: |
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Hmm, after taking a closer look at the pre-existing wire that leads back to the circuit breaker, it actually is 14 gauge, not 12 gauge. So if I switch to 12 gauge I'd need to replace that while wire back to the box. I'm guessing now that I'm okay with the 14 gauge, though if someone who knows a thing or two about wiring could verify that I'd appreciate it!
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Curt Palme CRT Tech
Joined: 08 Mar 2006 Posts: 24301 Location: Langley, BC
TV/Projector: All of them!
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Link Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 3:38 am Post subject: |
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Yup, switching to 12 gauge midstream won't do anything for you.
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AnalogRocks Forum Moderator
Joined: 08 Mar 2006 Posts: 26690 Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
TV/Projector: Sony 1252Q, AMPRO 4000G
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Link Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 4:22 am Post subject: |
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Curt Palme wrote: | Yup, switching to 12 gauge midstream won't do anything for you. |
15 amp AC circuits are 14 gage and
20 amp circuits are 12 gage.
_________________ Tech support for nothing
CRT.
HD done right!
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MYoung
Joined: 24 Feb 2007 Posts: 369 Location: Madison, WI
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Link Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 5:12 am Post subject: |
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Thanks for the clarification guys!
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jkruger
Joined: 24 Oct 2007 Posts: 2435 Location: Carlsbad, CA
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Link Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 6:03 am Post subject: |
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12 gage versus 14 gage might run a litle more now, but in 5 yrs it will cost a lot more. Do it now, and you will be glad you did.
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AnalogRocks Forum Moderator
Joined: 08 Mar 2006 Posts: 26690 Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
TV/Projector: Sony 1252Q, AMPRO 4000G
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Link Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 7:14 am Post subject: |
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jkruger wrote: | 12 gage versus 14 gage might run a litle more now, but in 5 yrs it will cost a lot more. Do it now, and you will be glad you did. |
I'd agree with this. If you need to up the ante to 20 amp it's much easier to wire for 12 gage now then to rewire later.
_________________ Tech support for nothing
CRT.
HD done right!
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ecrabb Forum Moderator
Joined: 13 Mar 2006 Posts: 15909 Location: Utah
TV/Projector: JVC RS40, Epson 5010
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Link Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 8:49 pm Post subject: |
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Or, if you have the spaces in the panel for it, just add another circuit. It's probably less work than tearing out completed/installed work, and there's no waste of materials. Unless you can't split stuff up, two 15A circuits gives more capacity and flexibility than one 20A circuit, too.
I went totally overboard and ran a 20A circuit to the projector AND a 20A circuit to the rack. Then I ran a 15A circuit to room outlets (including the subs), and a 15A circuit to the room lighting. I think I have a fifth circuit, too but I can't remember what for right now.
SC
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WanMan
Joined: 19 Mar 2006 Posts: 10273
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Link Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2008 12:35 pm Post subject: |
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Overboard? Look at this ...
Description: |
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Filename: |
Basement Electrical Requirements.doc |
Filesize: |
31 KB |
Downloaded: |
550 Time(s) |
_________________ Trust no one. Absolutely no one. Advice of the board.
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emdawgz1
Joined: 14 Mar 2006 Posts: 7949
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Link Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2008 12:47 pm Post subject: |
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Think about what goes into a typical theater room.
Crt pj
Video processor
Audio receiver
Amps
Computer
DVD
PS3
lights
hvac
That one room draws a lot of power. An electric kitchen may draw as much but usually not at the same time.
Sturdy wiring is a must.
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MYoung
Joined: 24 Feb 2007 Posts: 369 Location: Madison, WI
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Link Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2008 8:39 pm Post subject: |
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This basement home theater of mine will very much be low-end for playing PS3 and perhaps a movie from time to time, so it sounds like a single 15A circuit should do the job. I do have another circuit that was originally running into the other half of the room that I'm eventually hoping to re-establish in that room, though not for home theater use. I suppose if I added more equipment, it would be easier to just tap into that circuit.
Unfortunately, that room has a history of getting a wet floor during heavy rain! That prevents me from finishing it properly. No drywall in its future! Though I think it would be neat to put up some curtain rods spanning across the walls of the room and get some black curtains. I was originally hanging black sheets on all the walls with black carpet and as much black everything else. It sure make a difference in the picture! Of course, about a year later it rained really hard after I tore out my gutter covers because maple seeds clogged them all up. My gutters must have gotten plugged and presto, flooded home theater room! Not cool. Lost all my area rugs and lots of time dismantling everything. Though the flood is giving me a good chance to rebuild my screen frame and properly wire electrical outlets to that room. Even though I had GFCI protection on the outlets I was plugging extension cords into for powering the theater, extension cords on the floor are so ugly.
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jkruger
Joined: 24 Oct 2007 Posts: 2435 Location: Carlsbad, CA
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Link Posted: Fri Sep 19, 2008 1:04 am Post subject: |
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WanMan wrote: | Overboard? Look at this ... |
WTF? How could you possibly expect to run that much stuff on a single 100A panel?
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ecrabb Forum Moderator
Joined: 13 Mar 2006 Posts: 15909 Location: Utah
TV/Projector: JVC RS40, Epson 5010
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Link Posted: Fri Sep 19, 2008 4:31 am Post subject: |
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John, it's not as bad as you think... Check my numbers in red:
emdawgz1 wrote: | Crt pj (700w)
Video processor (200w)
Audio receiver (1200w)
Amps (3@500w=1500w)
Computer (200w)
DVD (150w)
PS3 (200w)
lights (1000w)
hvac (700w) (maybe) |
So, worst case is almost 50A. Four 15A circuits would easily cover it. The amps and the receiver are never drawing their rated current for more than brief instants in time. Real draw would probably be half that 50A most of the time.
emdawgz1 wrote: | That one room draws a lot of power. An electric kitchen may draw as much but usually not at the same time.
Sturdy wiring is a must. |
Don't you cook breakfast? We constantly have the oven, a burner or two on the range, the microwave, a toaster and the lights all on at the same time. Don't forget the fridge and dishwasher! Just the oven and a stove burner or two probably draw as much or more than my entire HT. Add in the toaster and microwave, and there's no comparison.
Good wiring in the HT is a great idea, but the kitchen is BY FAR the heavy consumption room in the house if you're not using a gas range.
SC
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jkruger
Joined: 24 Oct 2007 Posts: 2435 Location: Carlsbad, CA
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Link Posted: Fri Sep 19, 2008 4:34 am Post subject: |
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Did you add up all the stuff on this list?
Wired to a 100A dedicated Sub-panel tied to existing Main panel.
Quote should not include sconces, fans, pendent or under-counter fixtures.
Theater Room (underneath Formal Living & Dining Rooms)
Eight 6” canned lights on 1st wall switch.
Two ceiling electrical boxes for surface lighting on 2nd wall switch.
Four wall sconces electrical boxes on 3rd wall switch.
General electrical outlets on 15A or 20A circuit.
Six wall electrical outlets on dedicated 20A circuit.
One ceiling electrical outlet on dedicated circuit 15A.
Media-Music Room (underneath Kitchen & Breakfast Rooms)
Five 6” canned lights on 1st (3-way) wall switch.
Three 4” canned lights in soffit on 2nd (3-way) wall switch in traffic area.
Three 4” canned lights in soffit on 3rd wall switch at window area.
One ceiling electrical boxes for fan/light on wall switch.
General Electrical outlets on 15A or 20A circuit.
Two wall electrical outlets on dedicated 20A circuit.
Lounge Room (underneath Family Room)
Five 6” canned lights on 1st wall switch.
Three 4” canned lights in soffit on 2nd wall switch.
Three ceiling electrical boxes for pendent lighting on 3rd wall switch.
General Electrical outlets on 15A or 20A circuit.
One ceiling electrical boxes for fan/light on wall switch.
Kitchen (underneath Study)
Four 6” canned lights on 1st wall switch.
Three electrical outlet/boxes on dedicated circuit on 2nd wall switch.
General GFI Electrical outlets on 15A or 20A circuit.
Dedicated Electrical circuits for appliances.
Bathroom
Two 6” canned lights on 1st wall switch.
Two wall sconces electrical boxes on 2nd wall switch.
Ceiling exhaust fan on 3rd wall switch.
General GFI Electrical outlet(s).
One 15A or 20A ejector/sump pump circuit.
Hall & Staircase
Two 6” canned lights in hall & stair landing on 3-way wall switch.
Three or four wall-washer lights on 3-way wall switch.
Utility Rooms
One surface light on wall switch in each room.
One (general) electrical outlet.
Underneath Staircase
One surface light on wall switch.
Two electrical on 15A circuit.
Two electrical outlets on dedicated 20A circuit.
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ecrabb Forum Moderator
Joined: 13 Mar 2006 Posts: 15909 Location: Utah
TV/Projector: JVC RS40, Epson 5010
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Link Posted: Fri Sep 19, 2008 4:52 am Post subject: |
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I was talking about John's list, not Wan's Word doc.
Still, Wan might be OK, anyway. I counted about 20-odd circuits, but I didn't try to tally total draw. Why do you assume it's not possible? Entire houses used to be on 100A service, and this is just a basement. No range/oven, no A/C, no clothes dryer.
Think about your house's 200A service. There are probably enough 15A and 20A circuits on top of central A/C, dryer, and range to add up to 600 or 700A. I don't remember what the rule is, but if you consider that an entire house (with all the aforementioned heavy draw appliances) can run on 200A service, I don't see a problem with a basement full of lights and outlets and an HT running on a 100A sub panel. My basement is on a 60A sub panel!
SC
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WanMan
Joined: 19 Mar 2006 Posts: 10273
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Link Posted: Fri Sep 19, 2008 9:29 am Post subject: |
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I do not see my basement consuming more than 100A at any time. The entire house now has 150A. Had the main breaker been something other than Cutler-Hammer, they'd have worked that hot, but unfortunately the CH main breaker is not a plug-style unit, which means they have to touch the meter-side wiring hot.
BTW, as of 3PM yesterday I've hired the electrician. They are bringing in a monkey to install dead-wood for the drywallers, so the drywallers don't accidentally plow through sheetrock and into wiring they're installing. Hopefully a week from tomorrow the basement will br ready for the drywallers to come in.
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tri_joel
Joined: 03 Jul 2007 Posts: 646 Location: Northern Virginia
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Link Posted: Fri Sep 19, 2008 2:15 pm Post subject: |
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Crt pj (700w) = 5.8 amps
Video processor (200w) = 1.7 amps
Audio receiver (1200w) = 10 amps
Amps (3@500w=1500w) = 12.5 amps
Computer (200w) = 1.6 amps
DVD (150w) = 1.25 amps
PS3 (200w) = 1.7 amps
lights (1000w) = 8.3 amps
hvac (700w) (maybe) = 5.8 amps
Total amp draw assuming all are on and drawing entire rated amps = 48.65 amps
Lights are probably not going to be on and the HVAC cycles.
Actual amp draws are typically about half of the name plate data.
You don't need 20 amp rated outlets, unless you are planning on using a vacuum while 6 400 watt lamps are plugged in and turned on in each of 6 (per code) outlets.
Does an audio reciever really eat up 1200 watts? Seems a bit high to me, but I really don't know.
Food for thought.
Joel
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MYoung
Joined: 24 Feb 2007 Posts: 369 Location: Madison, WI
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Link Posted: Fri Sep 19, 2008 10:50 pm Post subject: |
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For my living room home theater I used a Kill-A-Watt to measure Amps drawn from my devices while playing a loud DVD (on my admittedly low-end surround sound system) and projecting a white screen on the projector...
1292Q: 6A
HTPC: 1.5A
HD DVD player: 0.7A
VisionHDP: 0.05A
500W 5.1 surround sound receiver: 0.65A
Total: 8.9A
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ecrabb Forum Moderator
Joined: 13 Mar 2006 Posts: 15909 Location: Utah
TV/Projector: JVC RS40, Epson 5010
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Link Posted: Sat Sep 20, 2008 12:35 am Post subject: |
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Joel, you're right - Most AVR's would rarely ever come close to 1200w. I just used the consumption spec for an Onkyo TX-SR875, which is rated for 9.8A. I was just using it as a worst-case scenario. Actual consumption would be FAR less - especially if you're using outboard amps instead of the internal amps. I'm sure typical consumption would more like a couple of amps. Even if it was significantly more, it would be very short in duration... unless you like to listen to white noise at 102dB or something.
Mike, those figures are all exactly what I'd expect. I need to buy a Kill-A-Watt and check some things, too. I've wanted one for a long time, but just never got around to getting one. One of the figures did catch my eye... The 5.1 surround receiver... At .65A, that's only about 78w. 78 watts! Barely more than a 75w light bulb!!! On the INPUT side of the power supply! Assuming even a 90% efficiency (wildly optimistic), that would be about 70w... divided by 5 channels (assuming the sub has its own power supply), that means the amps are probably running about 14wpc... which is probably the unvarnished truth. I'm not making fun or anything - I know we've talked about your system specifically before - it's just amazing to me that these companies can get away with these ridiculous marketing claims.
SC
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