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Digital and motion, Pls check this scene...

 
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THE_COW_IS_OK




Joined: 11 Sep 2008
Posts: 9



PostLink    Posted: Thu Sep 11, 2008 12:51 pm    Post subject: Digital and motion, Pls check this scene... Reply with quote


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My CRT PJ is being repaired and so I decided to play with a digital PJ to kill waiting time.
I received a DLP (marants 11s2) some time ago and I think I like it very much. Contrast/Brightness/Sharpness are really nice. Shadow details is better then my marquee. I would have kept if not for how it handles motion and gave me fatigue. Not sure the reason for that but few days ago, I played a BD disk called Fantastic 4 (ep2 surfer board). There is a space scene at the very begining. The camera is panning around the stars. On my digital, the stars(small white circles) becomes lines 15-20 pixel long on camera move. The faster the pan, the longer the line. I know this is not source related because when I pause, I get back my small circles. Can any1 with this Movie confirm that a CRT is able to handle this scene properly and that stars keep their shape with fast camera pans?

By the way I tried this same scene on a LCOS PJ and the results were worse....

Sam.
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perisoft




Joined: 29 Aug 2007
Posts: 2920
Location: Ithaca, NY


PostLink    Posted: Thu Sep 11, 2008 1:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The DLP chip itself wouldn't be responsible for streaking, since it's changing its configuration at 18x the input framerate (according to the specs) anyway just for color to exist. It's possible that there's some kind of processing going on, but that seems pretty strange.

It might be interesting to set up a camera to grab a shot at a known exposure time (say, 1/60th of a second, or 1/30th) during the 'streak' to see what's actually there. I can't imagine a 20-pixel line being created with post-processing on board the PJ, unless they're deliberately making it behave like 'slow phosphor' to reduce the rainbow effect, or some such. It'd be really interesting to see some screenshots.

Also, what player are you using, and is there any post-processing - gamma box, etc? What kind of input (I presume HDMI)?

PS: Oh - and you 'received' a $15,000 projector? It just showed up? If another one appears, feel free to send it over my way. I'd hate for you to be overburdened. Wink

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AnalogRocks
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Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 26690
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada

TV/Projector: Sony 1252Q, AMPRO 4000G


PostLink    Posted: Thu Sep 11, 2008 1:37 pm    Post subject: Re: Digital and motion, Pls check this scene... Reply with quote

THE_COW_IS_OK wrote:
Shadow details is better then my marquee. ....

Sam.


Shocked Do you mean you can't see the stuff in the shdows on your Marquee? If so you need some gamma boost.

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garyfritz




Joined: 08 Apr 2006
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Location: Fort Collins, CO


PostLink    Posted: Thu Sep 11, 2008 1:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Marrantz VP-11S2 has a reported 15k:1 CR, which ain't hay -- but of course that's with a variable iris. But the on/off CR isn't the issue for shadow detail. If he's talking about shadows when there are bright areas on the screen, that's ANSI CR, and digitals will beat any AC CRT in that area. They'd probably beat most LC CRTs too.
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perisoft




Joined: 29 Aug 2007
Posts: 2920
Location: Ithaca, NY


PostLink    Posted: Thu Sep 11, 2008 2:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quiet, gary. Any implication that any digital could ever produce a better image in any way ever than any CRT projector ever created will NOT be tolerated. Silence, or face the pyres of the nonbelievers!
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CRT_Ben




Joined: 28 Aug 2006
Posts: 1684
Location: Northern Virginia


PostLink    Posted: Thu Sep 11, 2008 2:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

perisoft wrote:
Quiet, gary. Any implication that any digital could ever produce a better image in any way ever than any CRT projector ever created will NOT be tolerated. Silence, or face the pyres of the nonbelievers!


I know you're being facetious, but I really think that most of us here have a pretty open mindset about digitals - most people left with CRT projectors at this point are those with 1) high end CRT setups that are roughly equal to but *different* than pretty much any digital, and enjoy the strong points of CRT; 2) those hobbyist types (like yourself) that find low to mid level CRT still king in the "bang for the buck" and don't mind, rather even enjoy, tinkering with them, and also enjoy the field repair-ability of CRTs.

As you mentioned in your other thread, you've seen that the digital projectors you've chosen for your sims are pretty reliable - but if you went with a digi, you wouldn't know how to do inverse-masking with your HTPC to even out wear patterns Wink
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AnalogRocks
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Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 26690
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada

TV/Projector: Sony 1252Q, AMPRO 4000G


PostLink    Posted: Thu Sep 11, 2008 3:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garyfritz wrote:
The Marrantz VP-11S2 has a reported 15k:1 CR, which ain't hay -- but of course that's with a variable
CRTSROCKCRTSARETHEBESTCRTSROCKCRTSARETHEBESTCRTSROCKCRTSARETHEBESTCRTSROCKCRTSARETHEBEST
iris. But the on/off CR isn't the issue for shadow detail. If he's talking about shadows when there are bright areas on the
CRTSROCKCRTSARETHEBESTCRTSROCKCRTSARETHEBESTCRTSROCKCRTSARETHEBESTCRTSROCKCRTSARETHEBEST
screen, that's ANSI CR, and digitals will beat any AC CRT in that area. They'd probably beat most LC CRTs too.



What I think we all need to do is read between the lines of Gary's post. You'll see the true meaning.

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ecrabb
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Joined: 13 Mar 2006
Posts: 15909
Location: Utah

TV/Projector: JVC RS40, Epson 5010


PostLink    Posted: Thu Sep 11, 2008 3:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gary's right - the single-chip Marantz will smoke any CRT in the ANSI contrast department. Even with low-level gamma boost, we still can't fix CRT's less-than-stellar mixed-scene contrast.

Sam, how is your source connected to the projector, what is the source, and what resolution is the source set to output? I agree with perisoft - the DLP itself shouldn't be smearing or blurring motion.

I'd look first to make sure you're not sending 1080i from the source; it should be 1080p. Then, I'd look at how the projector is configured to see if there some sort of processing happening to the signal. Specifically, that projector has Gennum VXP - a de-interlacing and scaling processing engine. From the marketing blurb:

Quote:
VXP is Gennum's portfolio of image processing ICs and algorithms that ensures outstanding image quality. Developed from our broadcast heritage, these algorithms are the most robust in the industry. The advanced color processing with 10 bits of precision means more than one billion colors are used for eye-catching natural images and uncompromised video quality. At the heart of the technology is Gennum's motion adaptive de-interlacing with dynamic directional interpolation, which removes jagged edges that can result from motion in HD and SD interlaced formats. Enabling the up or down scale of SD and HD formats, the programmable scaling engine ensures the proper enlargement and reduction of the images without any loss of quality. Coupled with advanced image enhancement algorithms in a low-power, low-latency architecture, Gennum's solutions comprise the most advanced single-chip image processors on the market today.


Make sure your source is 1080p, connected via HDMI, and see if you can completely turn that Gennum processing off.

SC
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THE_COW_IS_OK




Joined: 11 Sep 2008
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PostLink    Posted: Fri Sep 12, 2008 7:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My setups is:

Panasonic BD30 HDMI output ----1080p 23.97Hz---> Lumagen Radiance XD ----1080p 23.97Hz---> 11s2(native 48p out)

Now it might be something related to Genum processing inside the BD player(I turned any post processing off), Thus I connected the player component out to my little CRT Direct View (with 1080i) and the trail is gone. In fact, Instead of getting a line, I saw a 1-2 trailing dots.... Wonder how this scene will look on your CRT FP with your setups.

The reason I said shadow details were better was because of the great ANSI this machine is throwing. It allows it to keep the shadow details in mixed scenes and thats something very difficult for CRT. I tried once to play with my HTPC LUT gamma, but then u ll have to set it so low that depth is killed.

I am very satisfied with the Shaprness and contrast newest digital produces these days, and IMHO more is just icing on the cake.
Now only they can fix motion issue. There is a PC software called "juddertest" (you can google it)that scroll a vertical line (1 pixel wide) horizontally across the screen a @ the speed of the monitor refresh rate. This program was initially released to test for TV native output framerate checking tearing and judder. I tried this software on LCOS PJ(RS2), and the line blurred and became 6-8pixel wide rectangle. It did get wider when I increase the speed of the scroll. On my current 11s2, The line became 5 individual lines Very Happy. On the crt monitor, it was PERFECT! (not going to tell you how much worse it looked on my office LCD Very Happy ) Haven't tried this software on 3Chip DLP. It would be interesting to see the results.


Sam.
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WanMan




Joined: 19 Mar 2006
Posts: 10273



PostLink    Posted: Fri Sep 12, 2008 9:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

garyfritz wrote:
The Marrantz VP-11S2 has a reported 15k:1 CR, which ain't hay -- but of course that's with a variable iris. But the on/off CR isn't the issue for shadow detail. If he's talking about shadows when there are bright areas on the screen, that's ANSI CR, and digitals will beat any AC CRT in that area. They'd probably beat most LC CRTs too.


Native On/Off contrast ratio, or Dynamic Contrast Ratio with a much lower window of On/Off Contrast?

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WanMan




Joined: 19 Mar 2006
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PostLink    Posted: Fri Sep 12, 2008 9:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ecrabb wrote:
Gary's right - the single-chip Marantz will smoke any CRT in the ANSI contrast department. Even with low-level gamma boost, we still can't fix CRT's less-than-stellar mixed-scene contrast.SC


I seriously doubt he was talking ANSI contrast ratio when responding with 15K to 1 magnitude. I seriously believe this is Dynamic Contrast Ratio.

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