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The [soon to be] death RPTV.
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AnalogRocks
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Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 25677
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada

TV/Projector: Sony 1252Q, AMPRO 4000G


PostLink    Posted: Thu Oct 09, 2008 1:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote


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perisoft wrote:
WanMan wrote:
Find me one consumer product that was designed, manufactured and sold to 'last'. No such thing, and is why pretty much why everything but the house is deemed 'expendable'. Heck, not even humans are consider to be a durable good--at least according to the military. Smile


..but like Person99 said, there's no point to making most consumer goods 'durable'. A fridge - makes sense for it to last ten years. And they do. But a TV lasting 10 years is nearly pointless - who among us is using a TV from 1998? Hello, 4:3, 30" NTSC POS. No thanks. And god knows nobody's using a computer from 1998 - so why should they have been made to last 20 years?

Here's your 25-year-old TV:



Here's your 20-year-old PC:



...and here's your 15-year-old cell phone:



...Anybody feeling like they want to swap? Anybody feel like they'd have wanted to pay $3000 for that TV, or $12000 for the computer, or $5000 for the cell phone, so they could still be using them now?

Hmm...


That's my cell phone you have there! Only mines dark grey! Awesum phone!

My uncle still has a TV like that.
I watch on a Sharp 9 inch color TV from 1977 in the bed room. It's hooked up to a TV converter from 1995.

I regularly use my 486 DX2 50Mhz laptop. It's from 1994 I like surfing the net on it. It's networked via an Ethernet to Parallel adaptor from 1997.

My projector is from 1993, my other projector is from 1996. I run it off of a Sony 125 channel TV tuner with MTS sound from 1984. The line quadrupler is from 1998 or so. The DVD player hooked up to it is from 2000, the two VCR's are from 1999 and 1988. The Extron box is late 90's too.


My newest car is a 1994, my favorite car is a 1987, I've been driving it since it came home with 6Km on the clock. It has somewhere around 485 000 or so on it now. Most of my cars are 1984-1988's

I like things that last.

Who would want a TV that last's 20 years? ME! THAT'S WHO!

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perisoft



Joined: 29 Aug 2007
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PostLink    Posted: Thu Oct 09, 2008 1:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sure, Analog - but my guess is that you'd never in a million years have bought that '87 car new if it had been priced so the average model would last 25 years. Do you think it would be great if we all had cell phones that had 35 minutes of talk time, weighed two pounds, and cost three bucks a minute to use? Would the world be a better place if my wife couldn't call me from the side of the road if she ran out of gas bringing our son to the doctor? Hell, if you wanted to access this forum with 25-year-old Internet pricing, you'd need to be a wealthy, wealthy man to get your post count.

It's pretty hypocritical to bemoan rapid turnover in consumer devices while you enjoy the results of it every minute of every day. Hell, the fact that the keyboard you're typing on didn't set you back $300 is a direct result of that rapid turnover.

Why use a busted-ass, ancient laptop with a dim, horrible LCD screen (I'd have thought if you were going to go vintage you'd at least get a GRID with a gas-plasma... Smile) when you can get something far more usable for basically nothing? Hell, I'm using a 15" IBM P3/1000 laptop with a 1600x1200 display as a music player in my living room! You're kind of cutting off your nose to spite your face. Utilizing older tech when it makes sense is all well and good, but clinging to a 486 laptop is bordering on obsession. It's not even like they "built 'em better" in 1997. God knows they didn't build CARS better in 19*8*7.

Using old stuff just because it's old - particularly when newer stuff is demonstrably better in EVERY way - makes no sense at all.

If every manufacturer actually hewed to your cries, we'd still have computers with tubes (well - scratch that - we wouldn't have computers at all, because we'd be twenty generations of hardware behind). We wouldn't have CRT projectors, we wouldn't have DVDs, and god knows we wouldn't have HD. It's easy to wax nostalgic about the 'good old days' when you don't have to live in the world your own ideas would have created.

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AnalogRocks
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Joined: 08 Mar 2006
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Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada

TV/Projector: Sony 1252Q, AMPRO 4000G


PostLink    Posted: Thu Oct 09, 2008 1:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

perisoft wrote:
Sure, Analog - but my guess is that you'd never in a million years have bought that '87 car new if it had been priced so the average model would last 25 years. Do you think it would be great if we all had cell phones that had 35 minutes of talk time, weighed two pounds, and cost three bucks a minute to use? Would the world be a better place if my wife couldn't call me from the side of the road if she ran out of gas bringing our son to the doctor? Hell, if you wanted to access this forum with 25-year-old Internet pricing, you'd need to be a wealthy, wealthy man to get your post count.

It's pretty hypocritical to bemoan rapid turnover in consumer devices while you enjoy the results of it every minute of every day. Hell, the fact that the keyboard you're typing on didn't set you back $300 is a direct result of that rapid turnover.

Why use a busted-ass, ancient laptop with a dim, horrible LCD screen (I'd have thought if you were going to go vintage you'd at least get a GRID with a gas-plasma... Smile) when you can get something far more usable for basically nothing? Hell, I'm using a 15" IBM P3/1000 laptop with a 1600x1200 display as a music player in my living room! You're kind of cutting off your nose to spite your face. Utilizing older tech when it makes sense is all well and good, but clinging to a 486 laptop is bordering on obsession. It's not even like they "built 'em better" in 1997. God knows they didn't build CARS better in 19*8*7.

Using old stuff just because it's old - particularly when newer stuff is demonstrably better in EVERY way - makes no sense at all.

If every manufacturer actually hewed to your cries, we'd still have computers with tubes (well - scratch that - we wouldn't have computers at all, because we'd be twenty generations of hardware behind). We wouldn't have CRT projectors, we wouldn't have DVDs, and god knows we wouldn't have HD. It's easy to wax nostalgic about the 'good old days' when you don't have to live in the world your own ideas would have created.


Peri, you should know by now I'm in a world all my own. Very Happy

The cell phone has 4 hours talk time by the way. And your wife could always plug it into the cigarette lighter for more power. Or slide in on the 3 watt linear amplifier/docking station with hands free! Awesum piece. I love it!

I was trying to score some grid laptops like the ones used in the movie "Aliens", got outbid time and time again. (shucks)Colectors Rolling Eyes what are you going to do?

I don't see the point of buying new when used will do....using old stuff because it's old is not why I do it. It's pride in ownership. Have you ever been to a clasic car/bike/plane/boat show? Are they using old because it's old or because they love it? I love it. It's why I do it. I also love the looks I get good and bad when I drive/talk/surf with/on used equipment.

I'm one of a kind. Thumbs Up

Mmmmmm tube computers ( drool )

I constantly live in the world in my head. If you're quiet and listen you can proably hear the By-planes flying by.

Laughing

That was my last new car. That's when I figured out I could have more by buying used. I love fixing/restoring/arguing with things. It's what I do. Why else would I own an Ampro 4000?

P3 1000 at 1600x1200, WOW now that's luxury.

I'm not against all new things, lot's of people like new things, just come talk to me in 5-10 years when it's old and used. THEN I'm interested. Only problem now is all the stuff is junk that's made today Sad it's much harder to apreciate something that was engineered to last 91 days because it had a 90 day waranty.

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perisoft



Joined: 29 Aug 2007
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PostLink    Posted: Thu Oct 09, 2008 2:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh, come on... don't tell me they weren't doing the same thing in 1985. And like I said - CARS? Jeez, cars were absolutely horrible - particularly american cars - before the early '90s. Totally godawful!

Anyway, yeah, I have a lot of used stuff, too. My RPTV was resurrected, and I got it because they did a crappy job on the engineering and I got to fix it. But I'm certainly not going to advocate that they do anything differently - if they had, I wouldn't have my CRT PJ (if new digitals were built to last, they wouldn't be as cheap, and they wouldn't be adopted, and the people would still HAVE my barco instead of me getting it for next to nothing), I wouldn't have that laptop as my media player, and I wouldn't have an HDTV.

What I would have, if everyone built stuff to last, is a 27" TV, a couple of speakers with the surrounds taped so they didn't fall apart, and that's about it.

Building stuff to last? Great, if you have money. But if it was actually a policy, the irony is that guys like you and me would be stuck with next to nothing, because wealthy people could buy stuff once and be done with it, and there wouldn't BE one-generation-old-but-almost-as-good stuff for nearly free.

As it is, I get my CRT PJ in my HT, and my next-to-free cell phone and computer equipment too. I'm not complaining.

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AnalogRocks
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Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada

TV/Projector: Sony 1252Q, AMPRO 4000G


PostLink    Posted: Thu Oct 09, 2008 2:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

perisoft wrote:
Oh, come on... don't tell me they weren't doing the same thing in 1985. And like I said - CARS? Jeez, cars were absolutely horrible - particularly american cars - before the early '90s. Totally godawful!

Anyway, yeah, I have a lot of used stuff, too. My RPTV was resurrected, and I got it because they did a crappy job on the engineering and I got to fix it. But I'm certainly not going to advocate that they do anything differently - if they had, I wouldn't have my CRT PJ (if new digitals were built to last, they wouldn't be as cheap, and they wouldn't be adopted, and the people would still HAVE my barco instead of me getting it for next to nothing), I wouldn't have that laptop as my media player, and I wouldn't have an HDTV.

What I would have, if everyone built stuff to last, is a 27" TV, a couple of speakers with the surrounds taped so they didn't fall apart, and that's about it.

Building stuff to last? Great, if you have money. But if it was actually a policy, the irony is that guys like you and me would be stuck with next to nothing, because wealthy people could buy stuff once and be done with it, and there wouldn't BE one-generation-old-but-almost-as-good stuff for nearly free.

As it is, I get my CRT PJ in my HT, and my next-to-free cell phone and computer equipment too. I'm not complaining.


I'm not complaing either so we're arguing on the same side LOL

By the way all 1980's cars sucked except Dodge Very Happy GO MOPAR!!

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perisoft



Joined: 29 Aug 2007
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PostLink    Posted: Thu Oct 09, 2008 2:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

AnalogRocks wrote:


By the way all 1980's cars sucked except Dodge Very Happy GO MOPAR!!


There's a typo after 'sucked', but I can't imagine how you could have ended up with 'Dodge' when you obviously meant to type 'Porsche'... Twisted Evil

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AnalogRocks
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TV/Projector: Sony 1252Q, AMPRO 4000G


PostLink    Posted: Thu Oct 09, 2008 2:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

perisoft wrote:
AnalogRocks wrote:


By the way all 1980's cars sucked except Dodge Very Happy GO MOPAR!!


There's a typo after 'sucked', but I can't imagine how you could have ended up with 'Dodge' when you obviously meant to type 'Porsche'... Twisted Evil


I was on a Porsche once, I was painting it then I sat back in the rocking chair with a glass of lemonaide.

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perisoft



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Location: Ithaca, NY


PostLink    Posted: Thu Oct 09, 2008 2:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

AnalogRocks wrote:
perisoft wrote:
AnalogRocks wrote:


By the way all 1980's cars sucked except Dodge Very Happy GO MOPAR!!


There's a typo after 'sucked', but I can't imagine how you could have ended up with 'Dodge' when you obviously meant to type 'Porsche'... Twisted Evil


I was on a Porsche once, I was painting it then I sat back in the rocking chair with a glass of lemonaide.


Oh, so you're the bastard who painted mine PURPLE. With a BRUSH. And painted the DOOR GASKETS.

Granted, I wouldn't have got it that cheap if it didn't need to be repainted... but, seriously. Purple? With a brush? WTF?



I gotta fix and paint that thing one of these days.

In other news, finding AnalogRocks when he's online is a great way to get the post count up. And in other other news, only here could a thread about TV troubleshooting end up with a picture of a Porsche 944.

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AnalogRocks
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Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 25677
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada

TV/Projector: Sony 1252Q, AMPRO 4000G


PostLink    Posted: Thu Oct 09, 2008 4:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

perisoft wrote:
AnalogRocks wrote:
perisoft wrote:
AnalogRocks wrote:


By the way all 1980's cars sucked except Dodge Very Happy GO MOPAR!!


There's a typo after 'sucked', but I can't imagine how you could have ended up with 'Dodge' when you obviously meant to type 'Porsche'... Twisted Evil


I was on a Porsche once, I was painting it then I sat back in the rocking chair with a glass of lemonaide.


Oh, so you're the bastard who painted mine PURPLE. With a BRUSH. And painted the DOOR GASKETS.

Granted, I wouldn't have got it that cheap if it didn't need to be repainted... but, seriously. Purple? With a brush? WTF?



I gotta fix and paint that thing one of these days.

In other news, finding AnalogRocks when he's online is a great way to get the post count up. And in other other news, only here could a thread about TV troubleshooting end up with a picture of a Porsche 944.


Yep see you get it. How elese would you have gotten a 944?

A blonde is walking down the sidewalk and see see's a sign in the window of a big house.
HELP WANTED

She walks up to the door and enquires about the position. The lady of the house pus her right to work. She asks her to do some laundry.

90 minutes latter the lady of the house is standing in the laundry room with ther husbands-now pink- shirts that are two sizes too small because of the dryer.

The blonde appologizes and asks for a second chance. By this time the man of the house has arrived home. He greet's the blonde, see's what she has done to the laundry, then see's the tears in her eyes. He feels bad so he takes his wife aside and they decide to give her a second chance.

"Well" he says to the blonde. "Dry your eyes, I know you didn't mean to make my shirts pink and 2 sizes too small."

"I do have some painting I need done. I've painted the windows on the front of the house but I haven't painted the porch.
Go into the garage, there you'll find the paint and the brushes. Paint the porch and come see us when you are done."

Off the blond goes to paint the porch.

The wife and husband sit down to dinner and a drink. 45 minutes latter the blonde comes back.
The husband says "Are you done already?

" Yes!!!!" Beams the blonde with a great big smile on her face.
"I had enough paint to do a second coat too"

"Really?" says the husband.

"You bet" says the blond. " "Oh and by the way it's not a porch it's a Lexus "

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WanMan



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PostLink    Posted: Thu Oct 09, 2008 10:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Peri, you need to acknowledge what exactly is considered a non-durable good. Imagine every single tangible article out there. Remove the house you are in. Everything else is deemed not worth manufacturing to last more than 90-days. And a handful not more than 2.5 years.

And there are a lot of articles out there should last a lot longer, but 'business' is based on early failure and not because they couldn't make it durable. Electronics are not the only tangible articles out there.

The comment about all of us using CRT projectors that have lasted 10-20 years is not an acceptable example. These CRT projectors are NOT consumer products, but commercial/industrial products.

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perisoft



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PostLink    Posted: Thu Oct 09, 2008 11:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

WanMan, let me put it this way: I almost never run into a situation where I'm out of luck because something I want to use, or bought new, fails early. The only ready example I can think of is hard drives - price pressure has indeed driven them to lower MTBFs, and I've had a few drives fail. But... that's a few drives out of dozens; maybe 3 dead drives in 50 over the last 7 years. My laptop is getting kind of iffy, but it's from 2005, has been through an absolutely horrible pounding, and is nearly obsolete anyway.

Two DV cams I got have croaked, but that's not because they were designed with obsolescence; it's because they were pieces of sh*t. Smile

I can't think of many times when I've been truly inconvenienced by a 'durable good' failing prematurely. Maybe I'm just lucky.

And this isn't because I replace stuff all the time. I'm not a rich person, and I don't buy a lot of new stuff.

And on the other side of the coin, there are a LOT of things around that have lasted well - a digital camera from 2001 is still going strong (though, again, it's nearly useless now and equivalents are almost free), I've got computers around from 1998 that I still use for various things, and quite a few more bits of odd electronics that are still totally fine, but are so obsolete they're useless - a P120 laptop, a bunch of Pentium-class computers, nearly a dozen CRT monitors, and even LCD screens which are obsolete now, and four or five years old but working fine. I've got consumer FFB steering wheels that we pounded the hell out of on motion platforms for a year, and they're fine.

I just don't see this "built like crap" phenomenon. Newer stuff (those consumer FFB steering wheels, for instance) is built incredibly well - the engineering and use of plastic is just wonderful. The new audio systems from Logitech are absolutely marvelous for the price.

Early failure? Not sure where it is; for me, stuff is lasting, on average, far past the time I'll have switched to something new, and I'm hardly an early adopter.

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WanMan



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PostLink    Posted: Fri Oct 10, 2008 10:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I see it all the time. Stuff that shouldn't fail simply does. At ~31-month/38K miles the steering rack on my truck failed. Naturally, it was out of warranty. And I'm not driving on pot-holed roads. Then the O2 sensors failed at 14 and 22 months of ownership. I'm not even driving a so-called American truck. Before that non-American truck, I had a non-American car which I had to bring into the dealership twice for recall conditions ahead of the actual recall (congealing insulation that was running down the body/chassis in liquid black form. Both times well within the warranty period, but both times I had to find alternate transportation. Just simple examples of non-durable goods accurately classified as such.
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