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The [soon to be] death RPTV.
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WanMan



Joined: 19 Mar 2006
Posts: 10261



PostLink    Posted: Sun Sep 07, 2008 2:26 pm    Post subject: The [soon to be] death RPTV. Reply with quote


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Wife thought she had me shackled with her to the mall, but I jumped out at the nearest consumer electronics store. While in there, I noticed a Samsung LED-based (light source) RPTV based on DLP. My negatives are mostly focused on my inability to watch DLP (thank you, Saccadic masking).

Anyway, for $2300 they had a 67" 1080P RPTV. I noted the size of the screen and compared it to my +7 year old Mits CRT RPTV and how much less deep the cabinet was. I wonder what the death date will be for RPTVs, and how much longer DLP has in general.

Has TI come out with their anti-rainbow drugs yet? Mr. Green

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AnalogRocks
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Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 25677
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PostLink    Posted: Sun Sep 07, 2008 2:35 pm    Post subject: Re: The [soon to be] death RPTV. Reply with quote

WanMan wrote:


Has TI come out with their anti-rainbow drugs yet? Mr. Green


Not sure about anti-rainbow drugs but I bet there's some that will increase that rainbow effect, and leprechauns and pink elephants.

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garyfritz



Joined: 08 Apr 2006
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PostLink    Posted: Sun Sep 07, 2008 8:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As I understand it, current LED-based DLPs are basically using white LEDs as a replacement for the white bulb. They still need the color wheel so it has all the same rainbow problems.

But LEDs will switch about as fast as you want. When will they start using R / G / B LEDs, pulsing them for each color, running them fast enough that nobody can see rainbows? I think THAT would be the killer implementation that would put DLP on top for a long time.
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jarseneau



Joined: 06 Nov 2007
Posts: 321
Location: WI


PostLink    Posted: Mon Sep 08, 2008 2:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Samsung 6xA750 models are R/G/B LEDs. You can read more about it here.

- Why should I get the 750 series over a competitor, like the Mitsubishi
The 750 has an LED light source that should last the life of the set. No bulbs to replace.
Nearly instant startup times, with instant brightness no need for the bulb or ballast to warm up.
No spinning color wheel, so quieter TV (color wheels spin fast and can sometimes have a high pitch whine), and less moving parts
Much, much less chance of seeing rainbows as the LED's cycle much faster than the color wheel.
"Green" TV. The LED set uses much less power than bulb based sets and has one of the lowest energy consumption of TV's. Note that actual energy usage is less than the max rated watts listed on the TV.
The Samsung has 120Hz video processing for smooth, judder free playback of 24 fps film based material, such as Blu-Ray movies
Extensive user menu settings for picture adjustments
The Phlatlight LED engine is made in the USA.

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perisoft



Joined: 29 Aug 2007
Posts: 2920
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PostLink    Posted: Mon Sep 08, 2008 3:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jarseneau wrote:

The 750 has an LED light source that should last the life of the set...


I think that's your cue, Curt! Wink

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AnalogRocks
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PostLink    Posted: Mon Sep 08, 2008 3:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

perisoft wrote:
jarseneau wrote:

The 750 has an LED light source that should last the life of the set...


I think that's your cue, Curt! Wink


That's what I was thinking.

I bought a vacuum cleaner with a liftime guarantee. Then they decided it was the lifetime of the vacuum. So if it's 15 years old, looking mint ( as most of my tools do ) and it craps out then they won't fix it.

I'm betting the "life of the set" is a similar situation.

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WanMan



Joined: 19 Mar 2006
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PostLink    Posted: Mon Sep 08, 2008 10:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Something tells me that the LEDs will out-last the DMD. And this is nothing more than marketing. If the set was going to last a long time then why not warranty it with free replacement for 3-5 years instead of 90-days to 1 year? The way marketing is allowed to exist in our society, I am surprised electronics manufacturers are not given the green light to hit customers on the head with a club as they walk into the store.
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garyfritz



Joined: 08 Apr 2006
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PostLink    Posted: Mon Sep 08, 2008 5:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jarseneau wrote:
The Samsung 6xA750 models are R/G/B LEDs. You can read more about it here.

Veeery interesting!! According to http://www.electronichouse.com/article/phlatlight_a_new_source_of_illumination/, the LEDs cycle at 2.9kHz. I believe current DLPs rotate their 7-seg wheels at 120 revs/sec, so they're cycling through the colors at 240Hz. The Phatlight engine is running more than 12x faster. That ought to completely eradicate visible rainbows. Kewl!!

They claim these LED light engines will last at least 60k hours. Even Curt couldn't complain about that. Smile Of course the question is how long the whole *set* lasts.

I really have no idea how long DLP mirrors are expected to last -- it always amazed me they lasted 10 seconds. Smile

The major issue is going to be heat generated by the LEDs themselves. According to a Phatlight press release, they're using the National LM3433 LEDs. The LM3433 spec sheet says they run in the ballpark of 90% efficient, meaning I assume 90% of input power comes out as light, 10% as heat. I can't tell what the input wattage is on this thing -- maybe one of the EE's in the crowd can -- but it's clear this thing is going to throw off a **LOT** less heat than a UHP bulb. Which means you should have a lot less heat degradation of the optical components. (Plus drastically reduced ventilation requirements, which together with "no color wheel" means the thing ought to be practically silent.)

So if the DLP mirrors last "forever," and the light engine lasts 60k hours, and you don't cook the optics so they should last forever, and the only moving part is a low-flow fan... these things could actually last a very very long time. (Wan is probably right that the DMD array will be the first point of failure. But that's really not too bad.)

Wonder how they'll "engineer" them to fail every 3 years!?!? Sad

And they're even cheap! The Samsung HL67A750 RPTVs are VERY reasonably priced, only about $1700-1800 for a 67" display. You'd think projectors would be even cheaper since they don't have to provide the cabinet or screen.

Improved colors, 10000:1 contrast, no rainbows, no bulbs, long lifespan, quiet, cheap... what's not to like?? Assuming you can accept ANY digital set, this seems to resolve almost all problems associated with DLPs -- except dithering. That might be a very tolerable weakness for something with all the strengths this has.
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SisterOfMercy



Joined: 31 Oct 2007
Posts: 155
Location: Zwart Nazareth, The Netherlands


PostLink    Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 8:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garyfritz wrote:
Wonder how they'll "engineer" them to fail every 3 years!?!? Sad


To offer these things cheap they would have to cut some corners somewhere. Why spend $.20 on an electrolytic capacitor when you can also get 'the same' for about $.03? Obviously they are not the same, but have the same capacitance and voltage rating printed on them.

To me this is the new cancer of the electronics industry, cheap capacitors. It's amazing how many things I've been able to fix with my limited knowledge of electronics. I just look for bulging capacitors, or sometimes just for el-cheapo brands. After replacing broken/crappy capacitors the device very often works flawlessly again!
If the set should last three years, what's the point in using 'expensive' good capacitors for the manufacturer? Just use crappy components, and the customer will return within five years, or less.

I really wish there was a market for consumer goods with reasonable components, long life, and long service life.

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AnalogRocks
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PostLink    Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 8:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SisterOfMercy wrote:


I really wish there was a market for consumer goods with reasonable components, long life, and long service life.


I'd buy into that. I collect VCR's and the ones that were selling for $799-1500 back in 1988 are still going. The ones that have been produced in the last 6 or so years all die within the year. I took apart a 2003 Sony yesterday. Not only is it cheaply built but the have jumpers where the componnets should be. No doubt a cost cutting measure. i.e. remove anything that doesn't make it go.

Like buying a car with no hood, trunk, doors, wipers, passengers seats or seat belts. Sure it'll still go but do you rally want to own it?

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perisoft



Joined: 29 Aug 2007
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PostLink    Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 10:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SisterOfMercy wrote:

To me this is the new cancer of the electronics industry, cheap capacitors. It's amazing how many things I've been able to fix with my limited knowledge of electronics.


I guess you have a greater capacitor for troubleshooting than you thought!

*ducks and runs*

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AnalogRocks
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PostLink    Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 10:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

perisoft wrote:
SisterOfMercy wrote:

To me this is the new cancer of the electronics industry, cheap capacitors. It's amazing how many things I've been able to fix with my limited knowledge of electronics.


I guess you have a greater capacitor for troubleshooting than you thought!

*ducks and runs*


Hey I thought I was the punny one Laughing

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perisoft



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PostLink    Posted: Tue Oct 07, 2008 2:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

AnalogRocks wrote:
perisoft wrote:
SisterOfMercy wrote:

To me this is the new cancer of the electronics industry, cheap capacitors. It's amazing how many things I've been able to fix with my limited knowledge of electronics.


I guess you have a greater capacitor for troubleshooting than you thought!

*ducks and runs*


Hey I thought I was the punny one Laughing


I guess you'd better get ready to transistor to a new role.

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Curt Palme
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PostLink    Posted: Tue Oct 07, 2008 3:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chip away at it, and you'll find the fault eventually.
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AnalogRocks
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PostLink    Posted: Tue Oct 07, 2008 7:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

perisoft wrote:
AnalogRocks wrote:
perisoft wrote:
SisterOfMercy wrote:

To me this is the new cancer of the electronics industry, cheap capacitors. It's amazing how many things I've been able to fix with my limited knowledge of electronics.


I guess you have a greater capacitor for troubleshooting than you thought!

*ducks and runs*


Hey I thought I was the punny one Laughing


I guess you'd better get ready to transistor to a new role.


Never have I ever wanted to be a TRANSister. Laughing

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Person99



Joined: 09 Mar 2006
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Location: Flower Mound, TX


PostLink    Posted: Tue Oct 07, 2008 6:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SisterOfMercy wrote:
garyfritz wrote:
Wonder how they'll "engineer" them to fail every 3 years!?!? Sad


To offer these things cheap they would have to cut some corners somewhere. Why spend $.20 on an electrolytic capacitor when you can also get 'the same' for about $.03? Obviously they are not the same, but have the same capacitance and voltage rating printed on them.

To me this is the new cancer of the electronics industry, cheap capacitors.


This is every industry and it is largely due to consumers and competition.

I had a friend that worked as an engineer for GM. His first assignment--figure out how thin they could make the gaskets for the engine. His task was to figure out how thick they had to be to last 5 years. They had to somewhat reliably make it to 5 years but not a day more was required. They would rather save the money to compete--their philosophy was that if you drive a car older than 5 years old, you are not their customer (i.e. you don't buy new cars).

SisterOfMercy wrote:
I really wish there was a market for consumer goods with reasonable components, long life, and long service life.


You hit the nail on the head. There is no market for it, and really, there does not need to be--let me repeat that--there does not need to be. Why? Because who wants to keep it and service it for that long? Let's say you gave me two choices in 1992:
1) A SD VHS VCR that had a serviceable life of 20 years (for $50+/hr labor), would work reliably for 10 years and cost $1000, or
2) A SD VHS VCR with a life expectancy of 3-6 years and it is not worth fixing because you might as well by the new one and cost $200.

I'm taking number 2 every time. I can keep replacing them and get better stuff every 5 years. Hell, by 1997 I didn't have much use for a VHS VCR--DVD was substantially better.

In 2001, I'd make the same choice for DVD players because a better format was coming.

Why would I want an SD TV in 1995 with a serviceable life of 30 years? I likely wouldn't even want the TV in about 10 years.

Every single electronic thing follows this arc--period. You are crazy to want to pay more for servicable stuff when you could have better stuff down the road for less total outlay. That is why there is no market for long service life electronics--it is really pointless.

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perisoft



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PostLink    Posted: Tue Oct 07, 2008 7:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Couldn't have said it better myself.
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WanMan



Joined: 19 Mar 2006
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PostLink    Posted: Wed Oct 08, 2008 9:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Find me one consumer product that was designed, manufactured and sold to 'last'. No such thing, and is why pretty much why everything but the house is deemed 'expendable'. Heck, not even humans are consider to be a durable good--at least according to the military. Smile
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perisoft



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PostLink    Posted: Thu Oct 09, 2008 12:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

WanMan wrote:
Find me one consumer product that was designed, manufactured and sold to 'last'. No such thing, and is why pretty much why everything but the house is deemed 'expendable'. Heck, not even humans are consider to be a durable good--at least according to the military. Smile


..but like Person99 said, there's no point to making most consumer goods 'durable'. A fridge - makes sense for it to last ten years. And they do. But a TV lasting 10 years is nearly pointless - who among us is using a TV from 1998? Hello, 4:3, 30" NTSC POS. No thanks. And god knows nobody's using a computer from 1998 - so why should they have been made to last 20 years?

Here's your 25-year-old TV:



Here's your 20-year-old PC:



...and here's your 15-year-old cell phone:



...Anybody feeling like they want to swap? Anybody feel like they'd have wanted to pay $3000 for that TV, or $12000 for the computer, or $5000 for the cell phone, so they could still be using them now?

Hmm...

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mike calcott



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PostLink    Posted: Thu Oct 09, 2008 12:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yet most of us CRT users are using projectors made 20 years ago, its a good job that they were meant to last more than 5 years.
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