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How to add an Isolation Transformer to AV system.Thanks Bob!
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macgyver655



Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 8508



PostLink    Posted: Tue Jan 19, 2010 6:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote


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lovebohn wrote:
Ok, that was my plan. What else did you notice on Athanasios panel that did not look correct?

I all for constructive criticism if it helps me or my toys work better in the end.


If I were you I would resolve this current issue with your sub panel and see if it resolves your other issues. Before you attempt to install the iso xformer.

I'm not sure Athan wants to here what I have to say... Very Happy
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Nashou66



Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16167
Location: West Seneca NY


PostLink    Posted: Tue Jan 19, 2010 6:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not really, i was just down there touching the ground and hot wires and felt nadda, its safe as can be since my new power source is not mechanically connected to the mains Wink

And i did a continuity test from the sub panels ground to my main panels ground, continuity exists.



Athanasios

_________________
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"Republicans believe every day is the Fourth of July, but the Democrats believe every day is April 15." --- President Reagan

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macgyver655



Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 8508



PostLink    Posted: Tue Jan 19, 2010 6:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nashou66 wrote:
Not really, i was just down there touching the ground and hot wires and felt nadda, its safe as can be since my new power source is not mechanically connected to the mains Wink

And i did a continuity test from the sub panels ground to my main panels ground, continuity exists.



Athanasios



I didn't say it may not be functioning......of course I also didn't say it looks safe. Just don't ever let a code enforcement officer see it...... Laughing

Well providing he knows what he's looking at, LOL . I've had dealings with ones that had no idea of what their job was.
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Nashou66



Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16167
Location: West Seneca NY


PostLink    Posted: Tue Jan 19, 2010 6:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I asked one of my customers who does the electrical work for Moog and has done a few hospitals. he told me mine was fine and would pass code if the inspector REALLY new electrical theory. he said that equpment is probably the last place i would have to worry about a shock. He did say though if i want to make it keep the"Spirit" of the NEC code to put GFCI breakers either in the box or for each receptacle incase a piece of equipment did short to ground.

The problem is they are supposedly working on adding this type of "Audio" system to the NEC code, when it will get done ? Who knows you know how bureaucracy's work.
But it does pass.

Athanasios

_________________
Don't blame your underwear for your crooked ass~ unknown Greek philosopher


"Republicans believe every day is the Fourth of July, but the Democrats believe every day is April 15." --- President Reagan

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Last edited by Nashou66 on Tue Jan 19, 2010 7:15 pm; edited 1 time in total
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lovebohn



Joined: 16 Mar 2006
Posts: 181
Location: Wisconsin


PostLink    Posted: Tue Jan 19, 2010 7:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

macgyver655 wrote:
lovebohn wrote:
Ok, that was my plan. What else did you notice on Athanasios panel that did not look correct?

I all for constructive criticism if it helps me or my toys work better in the end.


If I were you I would resolve this current issue with your sub panel and see if it resolves your other issues. Before you attempt to install the iso xformer.

I'm not sure Athan wants to here what I have to say... Very Happy


That is my goal.
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macgyver655



Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 8508



PostLink    Posted: Tue Jan 19, 2010 9:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nashou66 wrote:
I asked one of my customers who does the electrical work for Moog and has done a few hospitals. he told me mine was fine and would pass code if the inspector REALLY new electrical theory. he said that equpment is probably the last place i would have to worry about a shock. He did say though if i want to make it keep the"Spirit" of the NEC code to put GFCI breakers either in the box or for each receptacle incase a piece of equipment did short to ground.

The problem is they are supposedly working on adding this type of "Audio" system to the NEC code, when it will get done ? Who knows you know how bureaucracy's work.
But it does pass.

Athanasios


First, did this guy actually see your box?

Second, isolation transformers are already in the NEC code. NEC specifically says that for residential use an iso can only be used for audio and video equipment and all panel boxes, junction boxes and outlets must be visibly marked as being involved in isolation.

Now if your really want me to point out each issue by code that I see in your box I will. But if you don't care, then I wont. Very Happy
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macgyver655



Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 8508



PostLink    Posted: Tue Jan 19, 2010 9:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh, and electrical theory is not what passes code, following code is what passes code. There if no margin for error.

There are some codes that really dont make sense as to being so specific or cautious but codes are there to not only protect the resident but to also protect the installer from liability.

And lastly it doesn't matter what any electrician thinks, it matters what the code inspector thinks.
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macgyver655



Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 8508



PostLink    Posted: Tue Jan 19, 2010 9:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Let me just add here that when a resident does their own electrical work then the responsibility falls on themselves, but when taking suggestions from someone else on an install because of uncertainty then the liability is spread further out.

I maybe be the over cautious one in yet another thread but electricity is dangerous when misapplied. It has been shown to cause fire and death.

Maybe I tend to be to verbal when it comes to someone elses safety but when I see something that concerns me and I dont say anything....... that concerns me even more.......... Sorry, but thats how I am.

Just disregard anything I say if you feel it doesn't apply to you......
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Boilermaker



Joined: 21 May 2006
Posts: 527



PostLink    Posted: Tue Jan 19, 2010 11:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mac,

Quote:
There are some codes that really dont make sense as to being so specific or cautious but codes are there to not only protect the resident but to also protect the installer from liability.


I'm not sure you really understand what the NEC is, and what its purpose is!?

Quote:
Second, isolation transformers are already in the NEC code. NEC specifically says that for residential use an iso can only be used for audio and video equipment and all panel boxes, junction boxes and outlets must be visibly marked as being involved in isolation.


Actually, they have been in there for over a half century. There is also no such restriction, nor will there ever be.

Mac, now I'm curious - Do you think you really understand what isolated power is?

Bob
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macgyver655



Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 8508



PostLink    Posted: Wed Jan 20, 2010 2:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Boilermaker wrote:
Mac,

Quote:
There are some codes that really dont make sense as to being so specific or cautious but codes are there to not only protect the resident but to also protect the installer from liability.


I'm not sure you really understand what the NEC is, and what its purpose is!?

Quote:
Second, isolation transformers are already in the NEC code. NEC specifically says that for residential use an iso can only be used for audio and video equipment and all panel boxes, junction boxes and outlets must be visibly marked as being involved in isolation.


Actually, they have been in there for over a half century. There is also no such restriction, nor will there ever be.

Mac, now I'm curious - Do you think you really understand what isolated power is?

Bob


Hmmm, interesting. Questioning me, after I've been so nice not to specifically comment on your posts. I was thinking on how to respond to this. First thought was to support my post but it annoyed me I now had to go though my code book. So I decided to look up what you do and see what code has to say about iso xformers in health care facilities.

So lets see. First a disconnect is required on all isolated circuits coming from the xformer at the xformer. The primary feed must have over current protection. The secondaries must also have over current protection for each conductor. An isolation transformer cannot serve more then 1 operating room unless under special circumstances. Isolation transformers are only permitted in patient areas when supplying equipment of 150 volts or more and the receptacles must be different then others. The conductor must be orange with a stripe other then white, green or gray and the other conductor must be brown and a stripe other then white, green or gray. The orange wire must attach to the silver connector of the receptacle and the brown wire must connect to the gold conductor of the receptacle. The isolated line must also be monitored with a green signal lamp, a red signal lamp and an audible alarm.

Well, that seems to me as identification is required. Now, I was going to list the NEC code number for you but I decided to make you look it up for yourself since you made me look up this crap. I also dont have time to look up what I posted because I posted it from memory and I dont feel I need to justify myself.

Also, if you want me to go back at everything you have posted and comment using mathematical equations and other facts I will but I'm not interested in making this a pissing test. I know what I have posted is factual and dont question my knowledge on electrical wiring. I really dont feel like hammering at your posts.

AS fare as lovebon and athan.... you guys can do what ever you want. I was just trying to suggest that you do things safely. But if you choose to disregard what I had to say then so be it. Just dont post that I dont know what I'm talking about because I do. I understand isolation transformers more then most here especially since they are also used in electronic equipment. I also know the math required to safely determine wire size and breaker size and the difference between a balanced and unbalanced supply.

So if no one comments on what I have said then I will say no more.
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Boilermaker



Joined: 21 May 2006
Posts: 527



PostLink    Posted: Wed Jan 20, 2010 9:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This forum contains a wealth of information on many different subjects where numerous people have shared experiences and knowledge all for the collective good. Curt has supplied an invaluable aid to many who have a passion for the HT experience. When posts are made which appear to be only negative in nature, it negates smooth flow of information and denegrates the advantages of this forum.

Your comments are welcome, and if you have something to add, please do so.

As to specifics:

1 - Feeder overload protection and an approved means of disconnect have been mentioned in my previous posts - There is no difference in this or a conventional distribution system.

2 - The use of color coded wires is necessary only when used in a healthcare facility that is duly recognized and licensed by the respective state governing body. I assume that what we are discussing is a residence.

3 - The purpose of color coding in healthcare is actually twofold. First, it identifies the circuit properly for maintenance personnel, and secondly, different types of insulation are available which can reduce the capacitive reactance of the circuit which is only helpful in healthcare applications.

4 - The lights and audible alarm are functions of what is known as a L.I.M (line isolation monitor). Its sole purpose is to monitor the overall effectiveness of the entire isolated distribution system and displays the maximum "potential" current flow that could occur if there was a fault condition such that a zero impedance energized source were to come in contact with a patient during an invasive procedure. Note that if the LIM goes into an alarm state, the circuit is still not interrupted and the procedure can continue as necessary. This is, again, only necessary and desirable in licensed healthcare facilities in areas doing invasive procedures - not residences.

Please, lets try to add to the discussion so that these guys (and others) can improve their home theaters.


Bob
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macgyver655



Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 8508



PostLink    Posted: Wed Jan 20, 2010 4:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Boilermaker wrote:
When posts are made which appear to be only negative in nature, it negates smooth flow of information and denegrates the advantages of this forum.


Exactly. There was no need for you to post what you did.
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mp20748



Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 5358
Location: Maryland

TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM


PostLink    Posted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 11:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Boilermaker wrote:
This forum contains a wealth of information on many different subjects where numerous people have shared experiences and knowledge all for the collective good. Curt has supplied an invaluable aid to many who have a passion for the HT experience. When posts are made which appear to be only negative in nature, it negates smooth flow of information and denegrates the advantages of this forum.

Your comments are welcome, and if you have something to add, please do so.

As to specifics:

1 - Feeder overload protection and an approved means of disconnect have been mentioned in my previous posts - There is no difference in this or a conventional distribution system.

2 - The use of color coded wires is necessary only when used in a healthcare facility that is duly recognized and licensed by the respective state governing body. I assume that what we are discussing is a residence.

3 - The purpose of color coding in healthcare is actually twofold. First, it identifies the circuit properly for maintenance personnel, and secondly, different types of insulation are available which can reduce the capacitive reactance of the circuit which is only helpful in healthcare applications.

4 - The lights and audible alarm are functions of what is known as a L.I.M (line isolation monitor). Its sole purpose is to monitor the overall effectiveness of the entire isolated distribution system and displays the maximum "potential" current flow that could occur if there was a fault condition such that a zero impedance energized source were to come in contact with a patient during an invasive procedure. Note that if the LIM goes into an alarm state, the circuit is still not interrupted and the procedure can continue as necessary. This is, again, only necessary and desirable in licensed healthcare facilities in areas doing invasive procedures - not residences.


Please, lets try to add to the discussion so that these guys (and others) can improve their home theaters.


Bob



This all sounds very familiar... how did you guys get consumer and Healthcare or better understood from another perspective "medical" codes or whatever all mixed up together?

Commercial Healthcare or medical is in a class all by itself, mainly because of oxygen, gases, chemicals and sick folk. That alone puts medical in an entirely different category code and otherwise. Actually medical should be considered the MOST strict of them all.

In most (round here) commercial and residential electrical systems, a permit is required for new and major upgrades only. So if one choices to change or modify the electrical system, there's no requirement, you can do whatever you want, though the expectations is that you would respect the local codes. With medical (healthcare) all changes or work would need special approval and sign off before anything can be done.

And the electrical requirements is so different from residential, that not many residential electricians understand what needs to be done.

I remember when we put a sound and video system in a large church. The specifications called for for a 3 rod ground grid isolated (transformer) power. It took me forever to find an electrical company that understood the requirements. Over the phone it was "no problem, we can do that"

On a site visit, it was, "that's not the way we do it - and why do you need the grounds welded? - And why do you need 3 rods in the ground, why not just tie it to the existing ground service?"

Answer, because the requirements deals with things far more sophisticated and complex than light bulbs, TV's and refrigerators..Mr. Green
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macgyver655



Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 8508



PostLink    Posted: Fri Jan 22, 2010 12:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lets clarify something here. NEC code is not law. It is a manual assembled by the National Fire Protection Association along with all other sorts of RECOMMENDED procedures. Codes fall under local law. Local authorities can adopt the NEC code for their guide but can also alter it any way they please. Or then can not adopt it and make their own codes. Or have no codes at all. Local authority has the legal power. It has the power to fine you, cite you, have your utilities disconnected and acquire court order to cease and desist.

So codes can be different from one location to another.

Also, code enforcement officers are an appointed political position and does not require any knowledge of actual codes. It is really a f'ed up situation. I was offered a job a few years ago as a code enforcement officer and turned it down because of to much politics involved.

So its hard to talk code unless you in a specific location and you know the local code.

But there is also an issue of the safe way to do things.
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macgyver655



Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 8508



PostLink    Posted: Fri Jan 22, 2010 1:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mp20748 wrote:


I remember when we put a sound and video system in a large church. The specifications called for for a 3 rod ground grid isolated (transformer) power. It took me forever to find an electrical company that understood the requirements. Over the phone it was "no problem, we can do that"

On a site visit, it was, "that's not the way we do it - and why do you need the grounds welded? - And why do you need 3 rods in the ground, why not just tie it to the existing ground service?"

Answer, because the requirements deals with things far more sophisticated and complex than light bulbs, TV's and refrigerators..Mr. Green


The difference here Mike is that was a requirement of the equipment you were installing,via the manufacturer I assume, not a requirement of code. The electricians are NOT required to know anything about your requirements. The installer is required to know how.
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mp20748



Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 5358
Location: Maryland

TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM


PostLink    Posted: Fri Jan 22, 2010 1:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

macgyver655 wrote:

The difference here Mike is that was a requirement of the equipment you were installing,via the manufacturer I assume, not a requirement of code. The electricians are NOT required to know anything about your requirements. The installer is required to know how.


The engineers that design the systems write the requirements. The requirements comes from an electrical code book and/or special books (not sure where they come from).

But a licenced electrician MUST understand the requirements. And whoever they use to install the electrical work MUST also know what they are doing - else it won't get signed off.


Unless I'm not understanding something here, the requirements is always for specialized and safe electrical power, which is also already in the commercial books, the same books that the engineers use to design the system.

The requirements are never outside of code. So it's not something that was thought up with expectations for someone else to implement, simply by following a few drawings
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Boilermaker



Joined: 21 May 2006
Posts: 527



PostLink    Posted: Fri Jan 22, 2010 1:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mac,

Quote:
Codes fall under local law. Local authorities can adopt the NEC code for their guide but can also alter it any way they please. Or then can not adopt it and make their own codes. Or have no codes at all. Local authority has the legal power.


While this is technically correct, practicality makes it virtually impossible to not follow NFPA codes. While I retired almost 10 years ago at that time, all 50 states had long since adopted the NFPA in its entirety. While each state, through its state rights has the athority to do whatever it wants, it would get very painful not to comply.

For example, no insurance company would insure a non compliant structure, and therefore no financing would be available. On the healthcare end, they would lose accreditation, federal funding, licensing, etc. In sum, they would be out of business quickly.

This s not to say that every individual inspector is knowledgable and interprets everything as intended. This is to be expected and is why there are methods to settle disagreements if and when they occur.

Quote:
But there is also an issue of the safe way to do things.


Could you please be more specific on this issue?



Mike,

Quote:
And the electrical requirements is so different from residential, that not many residential electricians understand what needs to be done.


Yes! Its a whole different world.


Bob
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macgyver655



Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 8508



PostLink    Posted: Fri Jan 22, 2010 2:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh, dont get me wrong. I would think that most local authorities would adopt the NEC code but they can and have made additional code requirements on their own. And again, the local authority is the legal authority. For example, if the NEC code says one thing and a local authority says something else then the local authority rules under the law. However, if that rule is contradicted by county or state rule, then the higher would apply, under the law.

Believe me, I have personally been to court myself against a local authority, and won. Why, because I had facts from the higher authority. And on more then 1 occasion.

Think of it like this. If you dont pass an inspection..... who's fining you... or taking you to court. The local authority. They are not calling in a higher authority.
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macgyver655



Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 8508



PostLink    Posted: Fri Jan 22, 2010 2:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Boilermaker wrote:


Quote:
And the electrical requirements is so different from residential, that not many residential electricians understand what needs to be done.


Yes! Its a whole different world.


Bob


They are not as different as you think. I have the 2008 NEC code book which is the current issue. Requirements on separate derived power has strict requirements in all facets of installation.

Read it for yourself. I have.....
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macgyver655



Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 8508



PostLink    Posted: Fri Jan 22, 2010 2:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mp20748 wrote:
macgyver655 wrote:

The difference here Mike is that was a requirement of the equipment you were installing,via the manufacturer I assume, not a requirement of code. The electricians are NOT required to know anything about your requirements. The installer is required to know how.


The engineers that design the systems write the requirements. The requirements comes from an electrical code book and/or special books (not sure where they come from).

But a licenced electrician MUST understand the requirements. And whoever they use to install the electrical work MUST also know what they are doing - else it won't get signed off.


Unless I'm not understanding something here, the requirements is always for specialized and safe electrical power, which is also already in the commercial books, the same books that the engineers use to design the system.

The requirements are never outside of code. So it's not something that was thought up with expectations for someone else to implement, simply by following a few drawings



This is not fully correct. the engineers may rwrite the requirements for their equipment but that requirement can well exceed the NEC code. Code may say that only 1 rod is required to pass code but the engineer may feel the its equipment is better protected with 3 rods. This does not change NEC code and it would not fail because code may not require all 3. But it is in the best interest to follow manufacturers code unless it differs from local code that decreases safety.

The same goes that local code can call for 3 rods but the manufacturer may only call for 1. 3 would have to be installed to pass code even if only 1 is required by the engineers.

The licensed electrician only has to know local code. He doesn't have to know manufacturers requirements, but should try to install as per the manufacturer, again as long as it doesn't affect local code.


Last edited by macgyver655 on Fri Jan 22, 2010 3:08 am; edited 1 time in total
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