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Shadow details restored - Thank you Crescendo !!
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OzMillsy



Joined: 10 Dec 2007
Posts: 25



PostLink    Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 12:04 am    Post subject: Shadow details restored - Thank you Crescendo !! Reply with quote


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Hi all,

This post is to share with you the improvement the RTC2200 has made to my system.

I am using a Toshiba XE1 HD-DVD player, connected via component cables to a Sony G70 CRT projector, running at 1080i60.

I suspected the XE1 was crushing blacks, but I didnt realise how bad the problem was. In combination with my CRT, the shadow details were virtually invisible.

But, the RTC2200 has fixed all that. I have taken some photos to try and capture the difference that the RTC2200 has made. The purpose of these photos is to simply demonstrate the shadow details that are there in the source. The gamma boosted images are on an uncalibrated system, that does need further work to get the overall balance right (please dont tell me the gamma is too high Wink ).

If you suspect your CRT setup lacks shadow details, do consider the RTC2200 as a solution. And maybe compare what you see on your screen, to the images I am sharing here (taken from the Chronicles of Riddick).

Before we get to the pictures, I want to pass on a big thank you to Kim. Who has been extremely helpful. I had a special request for different output terminals, and Kim was happy to help. Thanks again Kim.

The following posts, will contain image comparisons. The photos were taken with a digital camera, set to high sensitivity. In all cases the projector settings of brightness and contrast were identical. The only difference between them, is the gamma boost introduced by the RTC2200.

Without gamma the setup is: XE1 component connected to G70.
With gamma: XE1 component connected to RTC2200, connected to G70 via RGBHV cables.


Last edited by OzMillsy on Tue Jan 22, 2008 12:23 am; edited 1 time in total
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OzMillsy



Joined: 10 Dec 2007
Posts: 25



PostLink    Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 12:05 am    Post subject: Riddick - HDDVD - Chapter 3 00:07:39 Reply with quote

Riddick - HDDVD - Chapter 3 00:07:39

No gamma, space scene....




Gamma boost, look at the extra colour and detail.....

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OzMillsy



Joined: 10 Dec 2007
Posts: 25



PostLink    Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 12:08 am    Post subject: Riddick - HDDVD - Chapter 3 00:07:55 Reply with quote

Riddick - HDDVD - Chapter 3 00:07:55

No gamma, not sure what we are actually looking at here ????




Gamma boost, it's a caged animal !!

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OzMillsy



Joined: 10 Dec 2007
Posts: 25



PostLink    Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 12:12 am    Post subject: Riddick - HDDVD - Chapter 6 00:21:38 Reply with quote

Riddick - HDDVD - Chapter 6 00:21:38

No gamma, Riddick is hiding in the shadows, we can see his silhouette but not much more....




Gamma boost. We can see Riddick in full now, look at the extra detail in the wall on the right. We can even make out (just) Riddicks shadow on the left wall (ie: we can see a shadow within the shadow area!)

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AnalogRocks
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Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 22021
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada

TV/Projector: Sony 1252Q, AMPRO 4000G


PostLink    Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 12:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Holly wow! I just got a Moome card with Gama. I really got to get that in my system.

Nice shots! Especially on that space shot.

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OzMillsy



Joined: 10 Dec 2007
Posts: 25



PostLink    Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 12:15 am    Post subject: Riddick - HDDVD - Chapter 10 00:44:10 Reply with quote

Riddick - HDDVD - Chapter 10 00:44:10

No gamma, we see a shape, likely a hooded man ??




Gamma boost. We can now discern the bottom half of a face, and we can see the texture in the hooded material (stitches etc)....

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OzMillsy



Joined: 10 Dec 2007
Posts: 25



PostLink    Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 12:19 am    Post subject: Riddick - HDDVD - Chapter 11 00:49:02 Reply with quote

Riddick - HDDVD - Chapter 11 00:49:02

Final shots. I wanted to include a brighter image. This one demonstrates that colours do change (and these may indicate that I've gone abit far with my boost, more work maybe required). But it also shows that blacks are still black, look at the tip of the eyeliner pen.

No gamma....




Gamma boost. Skintones have changed. The colour in her eyes is easier to discern (no they're not black eyes Wink .

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OzMillsy



Joined: 10 Dec 2007
Posts: 25



PostLink    Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 12:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The thing about crushed blacks is, you dont know what you're missing if you cant see it. If you have the Chronicles of Riddick in your collection (either SD or HD), pull up those scenes and compare what you see.

If your projected image is closer to the first shots and you are losing shadow details, a gamma boost will go a long way to restoring that lost information.

Hope this thread may help some of you.
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AnalogRocks
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Joined: 08 Mar 2006
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Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada

TV/Projector: Sony 1252Q, AMPRO 4000G


PostLink    Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 1:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I do have that disk, and, as soon as I get my card installed I'll try this. Thank's Oz.
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Gino



Joined: 22 Apr 2006
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Location: Trinity Beach, AUSTRALIA


PostLink    Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 3:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

now you'll need to rewatch all your movies again, think of how much you've been missing! can't believe how much black crush you had
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OzMillsy



Joined: 10 Dec 2007
Posts: 25



PostLink    Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 4:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gino wrote:
now you'll need to rewatch all your movies again, think of how much you've been missing! can't believe how much black crush you had

I've only had the XE1 since the beginning of Dec. I havent been using it as my source for SD, only HD. I only have a handful of HD-DVD titles, so there isnt much to re-watch.

But Riddick was the first one I did re-watch after connecting up the RTC2200, and it was amazing how much more I could see. Very rewarding.

For those without a scaler or HTPC, who are using a standalone player to CRT - some form of gamma adjustment is essential IMHO. The RTC2200 does the job well, very good value for money.
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kal
Forum Administrator


Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 12815
Location: Ottawa, Canada

TV/Projector: JVC DLA-RS56


PostLink    Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 4:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I used an HTPC for years with gamma adjustment so I knew exactly what I *wasn't* missing... so when I moved to a Blu-ray (or HD-DVD) player, one of my biggest concerns was how the hell am I going to do hi-def disc without losing all that low level detail that I know is all there?

RTC2200 was the answer. Absolutely perfect!

Your screenshots show very well what a lot of people likely don't realize they're missing. Thanks for sharing!

Kal

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Last edited by kal on Sun Nov 28, 2010 2:35 pm; edited 1 time in total
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OzMillsy



Joined: 10 Dec 2007
Posts: 25



PostLink    Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 4:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kal wrote:
Edit: I just realized that you're using the component outputs out the HD-DVD player directly... have you tried an HDfury plugged directly into the RGB passthrough of the RTC2200? That was the next big step for me.

Not yet. Utilising the HDMI out on the XE1 is important to me, as it doesnt upscale SD material to 1080i over the component outs. I have a HTPC for SD, which I'm hoping I wont need for much longer. Smile
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WTS



Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 1226
Location: Calgary


PostLink    Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 2:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well you may have increased your low level details but you've also lightened your absolute blacks, which look kinda washed out now.

On my Cine8 setup I prefer to not use any gamma boost from these units, and my low level detail doesn't lack at all. But that just may be my setup/PJ which I have done alot of circuit mods to. MP also prefers to not use the gamma boost in his setups, he of course has also done alot of circuit mods to his PJ.

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Person99



Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4901
Location: Flower Mound, TX


PostLink    Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 3:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yep. I love my RTC2200. Smile But just an FYI, your PJ was calibrated incorrectly pre-RTC2200. You were crushing blacks like crazy. The difference with a properly calibrated PJ is still there, but not quite this dramatic. Smile
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Dave

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dropzone7



Joined: 12 Jun 2007
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Location: Charlotte, NC


PostLink    Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 3:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had the same experience when I first introduced the gamma correction of the RTC2200 to my XG. I was playing the new Superman HD-DVD and in the scene where Superman pushed the big rock into space and then falls back towards Earth, all was revealed. The background of outer space and the Earth behind it were just a black sea of nothingness before. With the gamma correction I could more clearly make out the details in his costume as well as the details of the background.
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WTS



Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 1226
Location: Calgary


PostLink    Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 3:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Dave,

Was FYI post directed at me?

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Person99



Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4901
Location: Flower Mound, TX


PostLink    Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 5:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

WTS wrote:
Hi Dave,

Was FYI post directed at me?


Huh? I didn't see any post by you in this thread.

It was directed at OP and others reading.

As evidenced by his screenshots, he was severely crushing black before the RTC2200. The difference in screenshots between a properly calibrated CRT PJ and one with the RTC2200 should be:
1) A small amount of extra low level details visible
2) black should be blacker (O IRE will have a lower light level)

These are the advantages of the RTC2200. If you are crushing from 5 or 6 IRE down, your PJ is simply not calibrated correctly.

Also, OP's post with the hooded man shows that post-RTC2200 the calibration is not correct. The RTC2200 shot is very washed out, therefore he has Kim's gamma boost turned too high.

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Dave

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WTS



Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 1226
Location: Calgary


PostLink    Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 7:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Dave,

My post was right before yours. So I guess you weren't replying to my post, okay.

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Person99



Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4901
Location: Flower Mound, TX


PostLink    Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 8:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

WTS wrote:
Hi Dave,

My post was right before yours. So I guess you weren't replying to my post, okay.


Now I see it, you posted while I was writing my response. Smile And I see you already pointed out the washed out look. Smile

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