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outwest
Joined: 17 Dec 2006
Posts: 212
Location: Honolulu
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 Link Posted: Wed May 28, 2008 5:46 am Post subject: Disney's "The Black Hole" |
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I just watched the Disney movie "The Black Hole". At some point in the viewing, it struck me how many of the ideas and concepts reminded me of "Star Wars". There was a smaller ship coming to a ship as big as a terrestrial city. An evil master on the large ship is aided by an evil lieutenant whose theme is black and displays some human/machine androgyny. There are laser weapon battles between the "good guys" and the security force of the large ship. There is a "droid" that looks like R2D2's prototype and has some similar abilities and functions.
"The Black Hole" is a movie worth watching, but it is nowhere near as sophisticated nor as polished as "Star Wars". I was sure that "The Black Hole" was an earlier movie than "Star Wars", but internet research showed that it came out about two years after "Star Wars". I cannot remember ever hearing or reading anything about similarities in the two.
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Tom.W
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
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Person99
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
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Location: Flower Mound, TX
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| Link Posted: Wed May 28, 2008 3:12 pm Post subject: Re: Disney's "The Black Hole" |
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| outwest wrote: | | I just watched the Disney movie "The Black Hole". At some point in the viewing, it struck me how many of the ideas and concepts reminded me of "Star Wars". There was a smaller ship coming to a ship as big as a terrestrial city. An evil master on the large ship is aided by an evil lieutenant whose theme is black and displays some human/machine androgyny. There are laser weapon battles between the "good guys" and the security force of the large ship. There is a "droid" that looks like R2D2's prototype and has some similar abilities and functions. |
It is quite likely the visuals were borrowed from Star Wars. Although the space scenes in Star Wars are not sophisticated by any stretch of the imagination, the visual effects were revolutionary. They certainly set visual effects standards that were copied for years.
| outwest wrote: | | "The Black Hole" is a movie worth watching, but it is nowhere near as sophisticated nor as polished as "Star Wars". |
I would never use the term "sophisticated" to describe any aspect of Star Wars other than the visual effects. It was a very simple "been done to death" morality play. Effectively, it is King Arthur in space right down to "special" swords and the inclusion of Merlin. The most significant variation seems to be that Vader is Luke's father instead of his son (Mordred is Arthur's son--this Star Wars "twist" was most likely to allow younger audience's to identify better with the hero).
The characters in Star Wars are extremely one dimensional. Do you think Hitler and Himmler sat around saying, "oh we are so evil, it is great to be evil!". NO!!! Real people are much more complex than that. Vader is as simple and cardboard as villain comes--all he needs is a mustache to twist. Hell, some of the villains in my 5 year old daughter's book are more complex and sophisticated than Vader!
As far as story goes, I think the Black Hole is more akin to Moby Dick--i.e. obsessed mad captain. The characters are a bit more sophisticated than Star Wars (as one would expect as Ahab is more complex than any Star Wars character), as is the social commentary.
Empire has, by far, the most sophisticated writing of any of the 6; however, it is still barely average measured objectively against other fiction.
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Dave
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MikeEby
Joined: 24 Jun 2007
Posts: 5238
Location: Osceola, Indiana
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| Link Posted: Wed May 28, 2008 3:39 pm Post subject: |
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I have always though the dialog in all of the Star Wars movies were some of the lamest words ever written for the big screen, it kind of rivals some of the George A. Romero zombie films. The later Star Wars episode 1,2 & 3 were by far the worst, the guy that played the young Darth Vader was horrible.
Mike
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Last edited by MikeEby on Wed May 28, 2008 9:32 pm; edited 1 time in total
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ecrabb
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Joined: 13 Mar 2006
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Location: Utah
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| Link Posted: Wed May 28, 2008 4:17 pm Post subject: |
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Come on, guys. Lighten up on the Star Wars, would ya? Every time it comes up, it seems like Dave has to rant about how bad it sucks and how Lucas owes him the 2 hours of his life back or whatever.
News Flash: The series was never MEANT to be serious. It's a melodrama/space opera, for chrissakes! When they were shooting A New Hope, some of the main actors were even hamming it up a little because even THEY thought it was cheesy. Then, it was massively successful. Oops! They sort of HAD to take it a little more seriously after that.
Not every movie has to be a Citizen Kane, Vertigo, Casablanca or Schindler's List. Not every space movie has to be 2001. Who the hell says characters HAVE to be complex? Who says the story and character's HAVE to be intriguing or complicated if they're just fun, enjoyable, entertaining - or all of the above. It's the same reason there's nothing wrong with a cheesy scrambled egg, a couple pieces of bacon, a slice of toast and a glass of milk when you could instead enjoy a quiche au gruyère and Bellini Cocktail. Cheeseburger and french fries vs. Filet Mignon. They each have their places and there's nothing wrong with the "pedestrian" versions.
Masterful/groundbreaking storytelling? Of course not. Good, fun, entertaining space movies? Absolutely.
SC
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dropzone7
Joined: 12 Jun 2007
Posts: 1069
Location: Charlotte, NC
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| Link Posted: Wed May 28, 2008 6:59 pm Post subject: |
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| ecrabb wrote: | Come on, guys. Lighten up on the Star Wars, would ya? Every time it comes up, it seems like Dave has to rant about how bad it sucks and how Lucas owes him the 2 hours of his life back or whatever.
SC |
That's just our Dave though! 
I will always love Star Wars because it's what introduced me to movies as a kid but I do have to say that the later films were not my favorites. The original trilogy from 1977 through 1982 was what shaped a lot of my childhood and I would have been fine with leaving the story at that.
By the way, I vaguely remember Disney's "The Black Hole" but would like to check it out again.
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Person99
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4901
Location: Flower Mound, TX
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| Link Posted: Wed May 28, 2008 7:04 pm Post subject: |
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| ecrabb wrote: | | Come on, guys. Lighten up on the Star Wars, would ya? Every time it comes up, it seems like Dave has to rant about how bad it sucks and how Lucas owes him the 2 hours of his life back or whatever. |
Actually, I only know of one other thread where it was actually discussed. Also, I thought this was a forum for discussion--seems I was wrong, not the first time. Oh well, I thought calling Star Wars "sophisticated" was an interesting choice of words which prompted the response which was meant to be taken just as "art criticism"--nothing more.
And hey, it is a bit over 8 hours (episodes 6, 1, 2, 3). I let him slide on 4 and 5. 
| ecrabb wrote: | | Then, it was massively successful. Oops! They sort of HAD to take it a little more seriously after that. |
Success is not a measure of quality, only popularity. Coltrane is significantly better most pop music, but not sell as well. Art criticism is about quality, box office sales is about popularity.
| ecrabb wrote: | | Not every movie has to be a Citizen Kane, Vertigo, Casablanca or Schindler's List. Not every space movie has to be 2001. |
No they don't. But one should be able to recognize the difference when discussing these things among hobbyists.
| ecrabb wrote: | | Who the hell says characters HAVE to be complex? Who says the story and character's HAVE to be intriguing or complicated if they're just fun, enjoyable, entertaining - or all of the above. |
I'm not saying that. A "sophisticated" movie would have that complexity. Two of my favorite movies to just watch are certainly not in the category of those you've listed above, but I recognize they are not. I believe they are very well done for what they are, but Casablanca they are not.
| ecrabb wrote: | | It's the same reason there's nothing wrong with a cheesy scrambled egg, a couple pieces of bacon, a slice of toast and a glass of milk when you could instead enjoy a quiche au gruyère and Bellini Cocktail. Cheeseburger and french fries vs. Filet Mignon. They each have their places and there's nothing wrong with the "pedestrian" versions. |
No argument. But, if this were a foodie site, would you be objecting to someone commenting on a post where someone called the Egg McMuffin sophisticated and complex? It might be an interesting discussion to talk about the insight of making a portable eggs benedict, but that does not make them high art!
Yes, I do find it humorous the number of people who think Star Wars is equivalent to Vertigo but I do actually find it interesting to discuss the relative merits of art.
| ecrabb wrote: | Masterful/groundbreaking storytelling? Of course not. Good, fun, entertaining space movies? Absolutely.
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Actually, since my 5 year old is now into Star Wars, I've had the chance to watch them again a number of times. This coupled with a few comments at AVS from some guys to the effect of "Star Wars ain't that great" got me thinking more about this. This thread comparing to another Sci Fi movie of the time got me thinking about it in context--both its groundbreaking achievements (visual effects, incredible score, etc) as well as the areas where it really disappoints (characters, depiction of space flight, etc). I do not see how improvements in those areas would have diminished it at all. Instead, it would have moved it up the food chain so to speak.
I've now got some distance from the 16 year old kid that saw Empire in the theater. For "just enjoyable movies", The Incredibles, for instance, is a substantially better movie than Star Wars. Yes, that 16 year old kid in me still has the nostalgia for Star Wars, but the experienced 44 year old has the ability to see the flaws and discuss them rationally and critically. It is the nostalgia aspect of it that gives it its special place--not so much its overall quality. Although the bad acting does make it tough to get through some parts of Star Wars, it still appeals to our desire to see "big screen sci fi" so we push past this.
However, since we obviously don't want threads that have critical discussion of things related to our hobbies, I'll avoid this. I guess I should confine my posts to telling newbies how to figure out their throw distance!
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Dave
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Person99
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4901
Location: Flower Mound, TX
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| Link Posted: Wed May 28, 2008 7:06 pm Post subject: |
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| dropzone7 wrote: |
I will always love Star Wars because it's what introduced me to movies as a kid but I do have to say that the later films were not my favorites. The original trilogy from 1977 through 1982 was what shaped a lot of my childhood |
Yes, this is truly the most interesting and dare I say "magical" part of Star Wars. I find the social aspect so much more interesting and engaging than the "art" aspects of it.
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Dave
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Person99
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
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Location: Flower Mound, TX
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| Link Posted: Wed May 28, 2008 7:09 pm Post subject: |
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BTW, on a related note: I've seen the trailer a few times for the new Star Wars. What is up with that animation? After movies like Corpse Bride and the recent Pixar movies, it is disappointing a bit more effort was not put into that.
Ooops--I'm back to critically discussion aspects of our hobby--damn me!
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Dave
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dropzone7
Joined: 12 Jun 2007
Posts: 1069
Location: Charlotte, NC
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| Link Posted: Wed May 28, 2008 7:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Person99 wrote: | BTW, on a related note: I've seen the trailer a few times for the new Star Wars. What is up with that animation? After movies like Corpse Bride and the recent Pixar movies, it is disappointing a bit more effort was not put into that.
Ooops--I'm back to critically discussion aspects of our hobby--damn me! |
This is kind of based on the MTV series right? I have not seen the trailer yet but saw the poster when I went to see the new Indy movie over the weekend. The animation looks like Kimpossible or something.
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ecrabb
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| Link Posted: Wed May 28, 2008 7:54 pm Post subject: |
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Dave, you really didn't need to parse my post into half a dozen pieces to respond bit by bit. Really... it's not that big of a deal. I wasn't being critical of you. I'm just tired of everybody ripping George Lucas for this, that or the other thing and talking about how Star Wars wasn't any good. I was just providing a counterpoint. Of course we can discuss and critique - that's what we're doing!!!
I wasn't even implying that success was any measure of quality or art - of course it isn't. Some of the very "best" things have been utter failures, and some of the worst/dumbest things have been wildly successful. I only mentioned the film's success in the context of the cast not taking the film seriously. I was simply pointing out that even THEY didn't think it would be as successful as it was.
As for the look of The Clone Wars, I think Lucas and Co was ready to try something different. They've been playing with all sorts of neat animation stuff behind the scenes while they were working on the last couple of episodes. They've done all the hyper-real/ultra-real glossy CGI, and were ready to do something completely different. Google "machinima" if you've never heard of it. Combination of real-time 3D CGI and animé. All the kiddies have grown up playing Xbox and computer games and are used to having the real-time CG look to everything - so, that's their comfortable with that. I bet it will be pretty successful. I think it's kind of a cool look personally - and I have never had any interest in the animé genre.
SC
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Person99
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
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Location: Flower Mound, TX
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| Link Posted: Wed May 28, 2008 8:07 pm Post subject: |
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| ecrabb wrote: |
As for the look of The Clone Wars, I think Lucas and Co was ready to try something different. |
So were Gaeta and the Wachowskis. But look how that turned out. I mean, have you seen Speed Racer?!?!? 
| ecrabb wrote: | | Google "machinima" if you've never heard of it. Combination of real-time 3D CGI and animé. ll the kiddies have grown up playing Xbox and computer games and are used to having the real-time CG look to everything - so, that's their comfortable with that. |
Thanks! I'd not heard of that or seen it since I'm not into that stuff. But, interesting observation on social aspect.
| ecrabb wrote: | | I bet it will be pretty successful. |
Dude, I could put "Star Wars" on a piece of my dog's crap and it would be successful!
| ecrabb wrote: | I think it's kind of a cool look personally - and I have never had any interest in the animé genre.
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I don't like anime either. I watch Ghost in the Shell because it was supposed to be all great and all that--it sucked. It has every stupid anime cliche! Anyway, I saw the trailer prior to Speed Racer. I REALLY don't like the way it looks. Perhaps it is because I don't play video games but I found the look very off putting. The first thing that crossed my mind was "man they are really trying to do this on the cheap and make a quick buck!"
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Dave
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dropzone7
Joined: 12 Jun 2007
Posts: 1069
Location: Charlotte, NC
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| Link Posted: Wed May 28, 2008 8:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Person99 wrote: |
Anyway, I saw the trailer prior to Speed Racer. I REALLY don't like the way it looks. Perhaps it is because I don't play video games but I found the look very off putting. The first thing that crossed my mind was "man they are really trying to do this on the cheap and make a quick buck!" |
Holy crap Batman! This movie sucked balls! I paid to see it at the IMAX too. I so wanted to like the movie but it was just like a cheap Kung Fu movie only the cars were doing the Kung Fu! I was just begging for a scene with the car going in straight line!
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ecrabb
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| Link Posted: Wed May 28, 2008 8:33 pm Post subject: |
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| dropzone7 wrote: | | Holy crap Batman! This movie sucked balls! |
Well, there's a glowing review. Bummer. I thought the trailer for it looked pretty cool. Campy, but kind of fun, if nothing else just for eye candy. The 1080p trailer I have - the color is just eye-popping. I kept wondering how my G70 could make those bright neon looking colors, it was SO colorful. I kind of liked the "hyper"-color cartoon look for a change. Pretty much the antithesis of The Matrix. Too bad it sounds like the movie wasn't so hot.
SC
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Person99
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
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Location: Flower Mound, TX
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| Link Posted: Wed May 28, 2008 8:37 pm Post subject: |
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| dropzone7 wrote: |
Holy crap Batman! This movie sucked balls! I paid to see it at the IMAX too. I so wanted to like the movie but it was just like a cheap Kung Fu movie only the cars were doing the Kung Fu! I was just begging for a scene with the car going in straight line! |
Yeah, pretty weak. They said The Matrix was "Kung Fu vs. robots". In this, they wanted to do "Car Fu". In many ways, Speed Racer is like Star Wars. We all grew up with it and have a nostalgic spot for it despite its shortcomings. However, nostalgia does not a good movie make.
After reading an interview with Geata where he said this needs to be seen on a digital projector (color gamut tuned to that, etc), I took my 5 year old to see it at our local high quality digital cinema. The presentation was unique, but a little less effort should have gone into presentation and a little more into script writing!
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Dave
A train station is where the train stops. A bus station is where the bus stops. On my desk, I have a work station....
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Person99
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
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| Link Posted: Wed May 28, 2008 8:40 pm Post subject: |
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| ecrabb wrote: | | The 1080p trailer I have - the color is just eye-popping. |
It is really interesting to see that presentation. Go see it at the $5 show just for the colors. One of the guys at AVS said the color intensity would "melt your balls." Mine did get a little warm.
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Dave
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dropzone7
Joined: 12 Jun 2007
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| Link Posted: Wed May 28, 2008 8:44 pm Post subject: |
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| ecrabb wrote: | | dropzone7 wrote: | | Holy crap Batman! This movie sucked balls! |
Well, there's a glowing review. Bummer. I thought the trailer for it looked pretty cool. Campy, but kind of fun, if nothing else just for eye candy. The 1080p trailer I have - the color is just eye-popping. I kept wondering how my G70 could make those bright neon looking colors, it was SO colorful. I kind of liked the "hyper"-color cartoon look for a change. Pretty much the antithesis of The Matrix. Too bad it sounds like the movie wasn't so hot.
SC |
The trailer was the best part. Cool fade to black scenes and over the top color for sure. It just wasn't enough to support a two hour movie.
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outwest
Joined: 17 Dec 2006
Posts: 212
Location: Honolulu
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| Link Posted: Thu May 29, 2008 6:43 am Post subject: |
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As I watched "The Black Hole" and the similarities to "Star Wars" sank in, I couldn't help thinking to myself, "How come I have never heard anything about the phenominally successfull "Star Wars" ripping off an earlier work?" I was convinced that "The Black Hole" was an earlier film. It just looks like it was done in a time when the tools to produce special effects were less developed. My "sophisticated and polished" comment was aimed at the technical aspects of the film, not at the story, dialogue, nor the end result, although I didn't say that. I was very surprised to find that "The Black Hole" was actually the later work.
Such musings aside, I enjoyed both films and could watch them again.
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nettwerkjohn
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 915
Location: Blenheim, Marlborough, New Zealand
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| Link Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2008 1:11 am Post subject: |
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how about tron?
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AnalogRocks
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| Link Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2008 1:16 am Post subject: |
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| nettwerkjohn wrote: | | how about tron? |
I liked that movie. 
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