CurtPalme.com Home Theater Forum

[Sparky015]

Register to remove this ad. It's free!

That sucks Wan. I found a local floor and tile place that actually stocked the stuff, so I got lucky I didn't have to deal with the crappy Lowes special order process. In the 3 times I special ordered from Lowes, 2 orders have been screwed up and took months rather than weeks, and one ( a kitchen counter special order) I had to load myself in my truck because the cheeseball said it was too cold out for him to help, so instead he stood by the door and complained how much string I was taking.

[WanMan]

Ok, I got some sort of laminate from Lowes. I am not sure if this is exactly what I ordered as nothing screams it is from Wilsonart, let alone the Designer White product I ordered. Next, the back substrate design.

I can appreciate the various methods of approach, including SC's MDF idea, but I am looking to keep this as light as I can in terms of weight. BTW, both Lowes and Home Depot in this neck of the ugly woods lay sheet material on shelves that are based on steel rods. While this is sufficient for more rigid material, or products that have good inventory movement (purchased a lot), the MDF problem is that it doesn't sell well around here and stacks of it lay with large waves in it.

Unless I move up to something like 1" HDF, I doubt these big box jokers are going to find me a sufficiently flat MDF substrate I can use. I'm not disappointed, because I am a pessimist and predicted as much. Anyway, while walking around HD this morning I noticed they had 4'x8' sheets of 2" thick rigid foam insulation from Owens-Corning. I checked OC's website and they make it up to 3" thick, but no sheets larger than 4'x8'.

I figure I could chop down three sheets to cover the entire 5'x12' laminate's backside. I handled a piece of this material and its light, appears to hold its form pretty good (I was surprised), and may pickup a couple of sheets tomorrow. I now am looking at ways to mask down the use-surface to form a 120" wide ~50" high area.

For mounting, I will use a simple spline approach (kind of like a hangman style) using ripped 1x4 material. I"ll add a 1x strip to the bottom of the screen's back so that it hangs off the wall equally (top and bottom). Thoughts?

[garyfritz]

2-3" foam isn't necessary. Gary Brown used 1/2" foam on his DW screen and it was quite rigid -- certainly rigid enough to hold its shape no problem. I would think 1" would be more than enough, and it will be a WHOLE lot lighter than MDF. 5x12 is another problem entirely...

EDIT: But now that I think of it, 2" foam sure wouldn't hurt anything, and it would be very rigid once you glue the DW on.

I was just about to head to HD to order some DW, but then I measured my screen. Ah crap, I made the frame 49" high! That was stupid. I don't want to cut the frame down -- it's all nicely wrapped in Duvetyne. So I guess I'll have to get a 5x10 or 5x12 piece, just to get that extra inch of width. Sheesh.

If I use spray adhesive on 2" foam, do you think I'll have trouble getting a smooth result? I'm wondering if bubbles might be a problem. I'd intended to lay the DW flat on the floor, then carefully lay the foam down onto it. I might have less chance of bubbles if I "roll" the DW down onto the foam, but that would be a lot trickier.

The foam will only be 48" wide but that's not a big problem. I'll just cut the DW wide enough to extend past the foam onto the frame, then screw it into the frame. With 5' wide DW, I'll have enough material that I could just glue the DW onto the foam and THEN cut the DW to size around wherever the foam ends up!!

[garyfritz]

Just went to HD. The countertop lady was swamped with people buying entire kitchens so I just left my name, but she said she should be able to get a 5x8 piece of DW for $90 total. Can't knock that. She wasn't sure what grade it would be and I'm not sure how long it'll take to get here.

I looked at foamboard backings for it. Some of those foamboards are not all that flat, but there was some 1/2" foam with foil on both sides. It was nice and flat (on one side anyway), and the foil cover made it nice and rigid. I think that's the stuff that Gary Brown used, and that's probably what I'll use. Then I'll glue a thin piece of wood onto the back of the foil and glue another piece on for a French cleat.

[mechman]

IIRC, Wilsonart laminates come one inch wider than specified. For instance, a 5X8 sheet would be 61 inches by 96 inches. It's been a while since I've had my laminate though and my memory is fading...

[garyfritz]

Yup, I know. But since the opening in the frame is just over 49" wide.......

I just ordered a 5' wide piece so I don't have to worry about it. It still only cost $78.10 delivered to the store. It just got here today -- time to go pick it up and see if I can glue this thing together!

[dturco]

[ecrabb]

I'd buy or borrow a J-roller. You can get a way higher contact pressure with a small J-roller than you could with a rolling pin. The pressure is critical with the contact cement.

SC

[garyfritz]

Geeze, do I really have to be that careful about it, with the dowels and all? I was planning to lay the DW on a sheet (in the garage so plenty of ventilation), spray it, spray the foam, then carefully put the edge of the foam where I want it on the DW and carefully lay it down -- maybe with a helper so I can curve the foam as I lay it down. What's the chances of getting bubbles with that? Especially if I flip it over and give it a good rolling afterward?

And even if I get a bubble, is it a big deal? The DW is probably almost as stiff as the foam. It's not like it would show up as a big fat round bump. And if it does, I can always pierce the foam from behind to bleed the air out.

[WanMan]

I wasn't planning on bothering with the dowels because the 2" rigid foam board is stiff and it is self-supporting during the laying stage.

I understand the use of dowels when laying laminate onto a counter substrate as the laminate is NOT self-supporting, but that is a completely different application.

I also plan on using the theater room's floor. Bought a twin pack of inexpensive disposable drop cloths that are paper on one side and plastic on the other. Floor was sanded smooth as part of the acid stain process and is maintained that way. So, drop cloth down, laminate face down, rigid foam sprayed with adhesive laid down, 1/8" fiber board laid on top of this sandwich and hand-pressed into composition.

The fiberboard is only acting to spread the force from the hand pressing and nothing more, without breaking the foam board skin.

[garyfritz]

I agree, Wan. If the laminate is face-down and you're laying the foam on top of it, I don't think the whole dowel thing is necessary. Especially if you have excess laminate and you don't really care if it doesn't get laid on precisely the right spot.

You're spraying the foam -- I assume you're spraying the laminate too? I think those adhesives are supposed to be sprayed on both surfaces. Though this is definitely a light-duty application and gluing one side might be more than sufficient.

Rather than the fiberboard sandwich, I think I'll gently press the foam into place, then flip it over and roll it on the laminate side.

[dturco]

Contact adhesive adheres to itself in this situation. So it needs to be on both materials. The dowels can be skipped but you run the risk of being off just a wee bit ... and once the contact happens you can not just pull it back up and try again,your stuck with that location. If you have it perfect this might work, ok will work, but I like to have the dowels to make sure it goes smoothly. Their only like $1.79 each, so not much money.

Alternatively you can use pvc pipes or hockey sticks or broom handles or any thing you have around to help with the positioning, it's your call.

The bubbles if they happen can not be remove like you would do on a photo or vinyl flooring. Once its there, its there for good. The vacuum you would need to remove it would fracture the D/W or collapse the foam board and I doubt a syringe would be adequate.


Keep us updated.

[garyfritz]

I expect to have at least 2" or so of "extra" DW around the foamboard, at least on top & bottom -- I'll drill through the DW so I can screw it to the back of my frame. So if I'm off a bit, it really doesn't matter.

Don't the dowels or whatever stick to the adhesive? Or does only adhesive-coated stuff stick to the adhesive?

Hm. I would think poking a hole through the foam/foil to the bubble, and then flipping it over and rolling on top, should force any air out of a bubble. Maybe not. Hopefully if I create any bubbles, they won't be large enough to notice from the viewing position.

[dturco]

Yep contact adhesive only sticks to itself and forms a bond. I am assuming your using this type and not something like Elmer's Glue which won't work over the long term, it will absolutely fail in time.





also see my thread where I had the blowout from trying to flatten the D/W.

http://www.curtpalme.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=18264&start=20

It's not hard to do, just take your time and have a helper, these size sheets will become a SAIL and go where you don't want if you try to do it solo.

Trust me on that been there done that more the once and cursed myself for it then bought the Tee Shirt. [img][/img]

[ecrabb]

Yeah, the contact cement sticks only to itself. Putting it only one piece would be worthless. In fact, on a single surface, it's barely even tacky to the touch. But, when it meets itself on another piece of substrate, look out because it ain't coming back apart!

I used 20 or 30 wire hangers we had laying around (and yanked them until they were as long as they'd go) as spacers. Put them in two rows, use the "hook" part of the hanger to pull them out. Cost: $0.

I second the "don't try it solo" recommendation. Helper is definitely mandatory.

SC

[garyfritz]

OK, I have the DW. Appears to be in good shape. Right now it's face-up on the garage floor, uncurling. Next step is to cut it to size.

I didn't get the spray-on adhesive. It was more expensive, it barely had enough in a can to do the job, and it had a much shorter "glue it together before it's too late" window. I got a can of the Weldwood like in Tom's picture.

I'm dithering on the substrate. I realized the foam/foil boards are pretty straight, but they aren't perfectly *flat*. They all have some ripples running longitudinally. I'm afraid with the slight gloss of the DW, those ripples would be visible. The MDF and OSB I looked at was all perfectly flat, but it wasn't straight. Unless I screw some angle-irons onto the back, I don't know how I'm going to get it straight and flat. Any suggestions?

[dturco]

For what it's worth if I was going to do it again I would use the 2" foam and glue Luan to that, then glue the D/W to the LUAN 1/4" stuff.

But that's because if I do it again I'll be making a curved screen.

I really think the foam is going to be fine. I have some dips in mine and it does not show in the picture at all. I can only see the bump and dips if I stand in exactly the right spot and stare.

Don't sweat it, you'll be fine.

[garyfritz]

Oooh, 1/8" Luan would make a great surface! Shoulda thought of that.

I might make a quick run and get a sheet. I'll have to glue twice but ohwell. I'd rather spend a few more bucks and do a bit more work, than have problems that nobody else sees but it drives me nuts.

Of course, I'm probably adding a risk of warpage if I stick a sheet of wood in there. Maybe I'm better off to just accept the ripples and hope hope hope I don't see them.

Why would you curve it? Do you notice a hotspot in the center? I could probably put some spacers between my frame and the DW and put a bit of a curve in mine. It would look a little weird with the space, but if the hotspot is noticeable it might be worth it.

FWIW I leaned a spare scrap of DW against my BO screen. At first I didn't think it was noticeably different -- then I sat down in my viewing spot. It made a big difference then! Clearly the gloss on this stuff is reflecting a lot of light directly to the hot spot. Hm. Which is more likely to make ripples visible...

This isn't a great screen shot but you get the idea...

[dturco]

The only reason I'd go to a curved screen is for edge distortion from the lenses, at the well, the edges of the screen. I think that would counteract the curved up nature of the convergence grid lines and make for a more ideal convergence without electronics.

You know a perfect set up without any need for the convergence electronics, right?


If you do get the LUAN only use the 1 /4" that is used for subfloors, it is better suited for rigidity and less prone to warping from moisture.

Either way, your fine.

[garyfritz]

I guess I'll skip the Luan. Hopefully the DW won't conform very well to the minor ripples in the foam and I won't notice it. OK, time to go paint some contact adhesive...