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ecrabb Forum Moderator
Joined: 13 Mar 2006 Posts: 15909 Location: Utah
TV/Projector: JVC RS40, Epson 5010
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Link Posted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 6:46 pm Post subject: |
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WanMan wrote: | Samples come in metal and solid surface. Does this imply the material can also come this way? Anyone know what the heck the difference is? |
Wan, Wilsonart is just the brand, and they make all sorts of countertop finishing products in addition to laminates, including decorative metals and solid surface materials - but those are totally different products. What you want is a sample of Wilsonart Designer White D354-60 laminate.
http://samples.wilsonart.com/p-246-designer-white-d354-60.aspx
D354 is the color and 60 is the matte finish.
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JustGreg
Joined: 07 Mar 2006 Posts: 3098 Location: Kenosha, WI
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Link Posted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 8:39 pm Post subject: |
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Person99 wrote: | Spanky Ham wrote: |
I would personally rather buy a spray gun and UPW before spending over $100 on a screen. |
I know you always say this, but I still don't get it. Painting is a big pain in the a$$. If you want a good looking screen, you are going to have to buy a substrate. Straight UPW will not give you any gain--the wilsonart does.
Buy the time it is all said and done, you'll spend hours more time doing the UPW screen to get worse performance to save less than the cost of going out for dinner. I just don't get it?
My time is worth way more than the delta between UPW and Wilsonart. |
I agree Dave...I just went through the whole screen painting thing and I am NOT happy with the results at all. Too much texture despite sanding in between each coat and experimenting with the flow rate. On top of that I wasn't able to access the necessary info to nail down exactly what type of finish I was supposed to have. Too shiny and you get hot spots...too much texture and the light is absorbed and passed on through the cloth instead of coming back. It was neither worth the time or the money for the HVLP sprayer and supplies for the results I got.
Nah. Melamine or Wilsonart DW for me as soon as I get to that point. Gonna stick it right over the top of that POS BO cloth and be done with it.
_________________ Greg
"Is it ignorance or apathy? Hey, I don't know and I don't care!" --Jimmy Buffett
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WanMan
Joined: 19 Mar 2006 Posts: 10273
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Link Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2010 12:05 am Post subject: |
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Wilsonart apparently not selling 5x10 sheets anymore so I just ordered a 5x12 foot sheet from Lowes (special order) for $153.60+Tax. The Lowes I went to had two local distributors they sourced from and that was the cheapest. That was $2.56/SqFt. The other distributor wanted $3.09/SqFt. Should be ready for pickup on Monday.
I think I'll come up with a non-adhesive method for mounting this to the wall. I do not know how this it is and may present an interest mounting approach so as to minimize reverse waves due to the unstressed rolling condition.
_________________ Trust no one. Absolutely no one. Advice of the board.
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comm
Joined: 09 Mar 2006 Posts: 46
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Link Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2010 1:40 am Post subject: |
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I guess I was lucky to get the last sheet of 5x10 in stock at my local distributer on Friday. Ended up being $130 with tax.
I screwed it in around the edges to a wood frame. Came out looking very nice, better than I expected. No noticeable waves at all. If I was to do it again I would unroll it and let it sit overnight; it would have made it a little easier to get it to lay flat when screwing it to the frame, though once it was mounted it wasn't an issue.
David
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JustGreg
Joined: 07 Mar 2006 Posts: 3098 Location: Kenosha, WI
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Link Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2010 8:12 am Post subject: |
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[quote="WanMan"]Wilsonart apparently not selling 5x10 sheets anymore so I just ordered a 5x12 foot sheet from Lowes (special order) for $153.60+Tax. The Lowes I went to had two local distributors they sourced from and that was the cheapest. That was $2.56/SqFt. The other distributor wanted $3.09/SqFt. Should be ready for pickup on Monday.
I think I'll come up with a non-adhesive method for mounting this to the wall. I do not know how this it is and may present an interest mounting approach so as to minimize reverse waves due to the unstressed rolling condition.[/quote]
Are you looking to roll it up again at a later date? I was thinking about using contact adhesive such as is used for wood laminate and sticking it to a rigid substrate. It will take two people to do it because once the tacky adhesive on the WA touches the tacky adhesive on the substrate it ain't coming off so four hands are better-er. I learned the hard way laminating some kitchen cabinets.
_________________ Greg
"Is it ignorance or apathy? Hey, I don't know and I don't care!" --Jimmy Buffett
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WanMan
Joined: 19 Mar 2006 Posts: 10273
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Link Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2010 11:15 am Post subject: |
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I'm honestly not impressed with the industry's contact adhesives commonly used for laminates. Everywhere I look I can see where it has failed. I have some nice laminate in my kitchen, and it had noticeable problems within a couple of years of its application. I went to the IKEA showroom here in Atlanta when they opened, about a month after actually, and even some of their displays were already showing signs of failure.
Truth be told, I do not think I have ever seen a laminate that has not failed. Go figure. Anyway, my only concern is about the flattened in-field aspects of counter-waves in the surface due to the prolonged rolled condition. I am not against using something like liquid nails (as long as there isn't a chemical reaction that produces out-gasing of dangerous products) as the cost in this experiment is rather low.
And yes, I had considered just hosing down the painted screen [dry]wall with some sort of 3M spray-on adhesvie and just slapping the DW up there.
_________________ Trust no one. Absolutely no one. Advice of the board.
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garyfritz
Joined: 08 Apr 2006 Posts: 12026 Location: Fort Collins, CO
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Link Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2010 12:54 pm Post subject: |
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FWIW the laminate in our kitchen is 20 yrs old and has had no problems.
A friend of mine used contact adhesive to glue his DW to a sheet of 1/2" foam. Worked like a charm and it's very light. I'm nervous about the "stick it on the foam" step because it's so irreversible....
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WanMan
Joined: 19 Mar 2006 Posts: 10273
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Link Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2010 2:11 pm Post subject: |
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I doubt I'm going to find a 5' wide foam board, or one 12' long, at HD. I suppose three standard 4x8 chopped down to 5' would work. I'm not considering the money being spent on this as being long-term needed and is quite disposable. I could then simply hang the bonded elements from the soffet.
Now I am wondering how to come up with a nice black border. I think someone mentioned black roll tape. I certainly do not need a screen (no matter how inexpensive) to be 12' wide and 5' high.
_________________ Trust no one. Absolutely no one. Advice of the board.
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garyfritz
Joined: 08 Apr 2006 Posts: 12026 Location: Fort Collins, CO
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Link Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2010 2:57 pm Post subject: |
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Duvetyne tape is supposed to work well. You might want to find somebody to split a roll with since it seems to come in 25 yard lengths. 4" x 25 yd goes for about $40.
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jkruger
Joined: 24 Oct 2007 Posts: 2435 Location: Carlsbad, CA
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Link Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2010 3:33 pm Post subject: |
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I used the amazon link from here to search for duvetyne and bought a 4" x 25 yard roll for $40.00. I only used half on my screen. Worked perfectly.
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ecrabb Forum Moderator
Joined: 13 Mar 2006 Posts: 15909 Location: Utah
TV/Projector: JVC RS40, Epson 5010
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Link Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2010 4:24 pm Post subject: |
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WanMan wrote: | I doubt I'm going to find a 5' wide foam board, or one 12' long, at HD. I suppose three standard 4x8 chopped down to 5' would work. I'm not considering the money being spent on this as being long-term needed and is quite disposable. I could then simply hang the bonded elements from the soffet. |
Before you even think about materials, cutting, borders, etc. you need to do some calculations and let either your projector throw and/or brightness determine screen size, or of those requirements are satisfied, then your desired angle-of-view.
Once you know the exact size you want, just pick yourself up a couple of sheets of 1/2" MDF, screw a couple of 2x4's to them to put them together, and use contact cement to put the Wilsonart over the top. Use the french cleat method to hang, and throw it away if you decide to do something different. It's a couple-hour project if you have all the tools hand.
Oh, and there is nothing wrong with the contact cement method - it's sh*tty application/workmanship or cheap materials that causes it to fail. My screen looks exactly like it did the day I built it. Make sure both surfaces are exactly clean, don't skimp on material, and apply it to both surfaces exactly per the manufacturer's recommendation. If you follow the directions, it'll still look good 30 years from now.
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Spanky Ham
Joined: 22 Mar 2006 Posts: 5643 Location: Comedy Central
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Link Posted: Fri Jul 23, 2010 3:44 pm Post subject: |
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JustGreg wrote: | Person99 wrote: | Spanky Ham wrote: |
I would personally rather buy a spray gun and UPW before spending over $100 on a screen. |
I know you always say this, but I still don't get it. Painting is a big pain in the a$$. If you want a good looking screen, you are going to have to buy a substrate. Straight UPW will not give you any gain--the wilsonart does.
Buy the time it is all said and done, you'll spend hours more time doing the UPW screen to get worse performance to save less than the cost of going out for dinner. I just don't get it?
My time is worth way more than the delta between UPW and Wilsonart. |
I agree Dave...I just went through the whole screen painting thing and I am NOT happy with the results at all. Too much texture despite sanding in between each coat and experimenting with the flow rate. On top of that I wasn't able to access the necessary info to nail down exactly what type of finish I was supposed to have. Too shiny and you get hot spots...too much texture and the light is absorbed and passed on through the cloth instead of coming back. It was neither worth the time or the money for the HVLP sprayer and supplies for the results I got.
Nah. Melamine or Wilsonart DW for me as soon as I get to that point. Gonna stick it right over the top of that POS BO cloth and be done with it. |
In response to Dave, you still have to buy a substrate for the Wilsonart, so you still have some time invested in the screen.
Greg,
I am sorry that you had issues with your painted screen. Why did you use blackout cloth instead of MDF or another substrate? I watched some painters spend about ten minutes painting a wall with a roller. While a sprayer will give you a smoother finish, a roller will give you about the same texture as Wilsonart.
When I first started talking about Wilsonart, I was looking at it as an inexpensive alternative to painting. It still is a good alternative if you find it for a good price (under $100). My issue is when people pay $150 to $200 for the Wilsonart. You still have to buy something to adhere it to, as well as the adhesive. When you are done, the total cost might be close to $300. Honestly, I found laminating to be more time consuming and a pain in the a$$ then painting, but that may just be me. Also, there is the issue of getting one with to much gloss, as I found in my original testing five or so years ago. I might add that this high gloss is the reason for the gain that Dave goes on about. Having said all of this, I still think it is a great screen, which is why I originally recommended it. It has the great advantage of being semi - flexible for the anamorph crowd.
For those that don't want to or don't like to paint like Greg, you could get someone to do it for you like a body shop. I have heard of guys getting their screens painted for around $50 to $75.
Another alternative that I haven't tested personally, but think is a good screen candidate is Gatorboard. It comes finished, so all you have to do is hang it. I got a quote on a 4x8 for $80. If you do some searching, then you should be able to find some better prices. Also, it is light and comes in a 5x10.
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ecrabb Forum Moderator
Joined: 13 Mar 2006 Posts: 15909 Location: Utah
TV/Projector: JVC RS40, Epson 5010
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Link Posted: Fri Jul 23, 2010 4:27 pm Post subject: |
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Spanky...
- The texture on WilsonArt is MUCH finer than the lightest texture you can ever get with a roller. There is no comparison. Spraying is the only way to get anything anywhere near as smooth as the laminate.
- $300 is the worst-case scenario for a DW screen, and that's to use the entire 5x10. If you stay under 4x8, it'll be under $250.
- Your Gatorboard was probably for 3/16"... If you're going to paint it, then you definitely want a thicker piece to avoid warping, so you're probably looking at more like $125 for a piece of 3/4", and $150+ for a 5'x10' - if you can find it. Then add primer, paint, rollers, etc. and you're well over $200. It's lighter, but it's also MUCH more fragile and easily damaged or marred.
They both have their pluses and minus, but cost difference just isn't that great, and with the Wilsonart, everything you need is available right at the big box store.
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Spanky Ham
Joined: 22 Mar 2006 Posts: 5643 Location: Comedy Central
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Link Posted: Fri Jul 23, 2010 5:13 pm Post subject: |
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I don't have any samples, so I will have to take your word for the texture. I just remember that the texture was still visible.
Your correct on the worst case scenario and that is why I make an issue of people paying that much when there are better deals out there.
I believe it was for the 3/8". No, I wouldn't paint it. If I am going to paint, then I would use something else. The Gatorboard should be fine as is. MM tested it over at AVS and found that it was pretty sturdy.
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ecrabb Forum Moderator
Joined: 13 Mar 2006 Posts: 15909 Location: Utah
TV/Projector: JVC RS40, Epson 5010
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Link Posted: Fri Jul 23, 2010 5:19 pm Post subject: |
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OK, but if you're not going to paint, then white Gatorboard is probably back close to 1.0 or 1.1 gain...
Yes, Gatorboard is plenty sturdy... It's most the corners that would be very susceptible to damage, like while you're moving or hanging it. The surface itself would also be easily marred say, if a kid's ball hit it, or if something sprayed or splashed on it.
It would be very light and easy to move around, which would be nice.
SC
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garyfritz
Joined: 08 Apr 2006 Posts: 12026 Location: Fort Collins, CO
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Link Posted: Fri Jul 23, 2010 6:07 pm Post subject: |
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Yeah, Wilsonart has the huge advantage that it's nearly indestructible and totally cleanable. If you mount it on foamboard like I mentioned, it will also be very light and easy to move.
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Spanky Ham
Joined: 22 Mar 2006 Posts: 5643 Location: Comedy Central
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Link Posted: Sat Jul 24, 2010 1:49 am Post subject: |
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Man, what are you guys doing to your screens that you need them to be indestructible?
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garyfritz
Joined: 08 Apr 2006 Posts: 12026 Location: Fort Collins, CO
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Link Posted: Sat Jul 24, 2010 2:34 am Post subject: |
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Apparently you don't have kids.
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mechman
Joined: 21 Jun 2010 Posts: 30
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Link Posted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 5:55 pm Post subject: |
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ecrabb wrote: |
- The texture on WilsonArt is MUCH finer than the lightest texture you can ever get with a roller. There is no comparison. Spraying is the only way to get anything anywhere near as smooth as the laminate. |
I can roll a screen as smooth as a DW. It's pretty simple if you know what you're doing.
ecrabb wrote: | - $300 is the worst-case scenario for a DW screen, and that's to use the entire 5x10. If you stay under 4x8, it'll be under $250. |
Agreed.
ecrabb wrote: | - Your Gatorboard was probably for 3/16"... If you're going to paint it, then you definitely want a thicker piece to avoid warping, so you're probably looking at more like $125 for a piece of 3/4", and $150+ for a 5'x10' - if you can find it. Then add primer, paint, rollers, etc. and you're well over $200. It's lighter, but it's also MUCH more fragile and easily damaged or marred.
They both have their pluses and minus, but cost difference just isn't that great, and with the Wilsonart, everything you need is available right at the big box store.
SC |
One thing that has come to light recently is that a distributor of these products stated that both Gator Board and Sintra contain lead. She suggested Komatex. One of the two, I can't remember which, contains a small amount of lead. Either way, if you have kids, stick with the Komatex.
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WanMan
Joined: 19 Mar 2006 Posts: 10273
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Link Posted: Fri Jul 30, 2010 11:24 am Post subject: |
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So, the order I placed with Lowes on the 20th with the Lowes-set expectation it would be 3 days have yet to delivered. Got a call on Wednesday from someone else in the cabinetry department said I was misled as it takes a week to ten day. They are sourcing from a supplier in Macon, and had I known that I could have made a day trip LAST WEEK and picked up the material. So I wait.
BTW, this is fine since my week's vacation has proven to be worthless in getting anything accomplished. I ordered a new AVR to act like a preamp some 2.5 weeks ago from a company called Electronics Expo, a Denon Authorized reseller. They set my expectation of "a couple of days" for new inventory, but its been 2.5 weeks and they still have no inventory.
So, I've got a projector with nothing to project onto, and speaker looking for something to feed them. Such a hollow vacation victory, and only re-enforces my belief in that I hate taking vacations.
_________________ Trust no one. Absolutely no one. Advice of the board.
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