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What level to you watch movies at?
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What level do you watch movies at?
Greater than reference (>85 db)
16%
 16%  [ 4 ]
Reference (85 db)
8%
 8%  [ 2 ]
A bit under refernce (75 db to 84 db)
41%
 41%  [ 10 ]
Fairly quiet (<75 db)
4%
 4%  [ 1 ]
I have no clue what it really is.
29%
 29%  [ 7 ]
Total Votes : 24

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perisoft




Joined: 29 Aug 2007
Posts: 2920
Location: Ithaca, NY


PostLink    Posted: Wed May 21, 2008 3:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote


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AnalogRocks wrote:
perisoft wrote:


During one of my test setups, I actually started to get up to go get the door when someone knocked off-screen. My wife really thought it was funny.


I've gotten up to answer the phone once just like that. I was running for my old work phone cause you only get 5 rings and it was in my jacket. I stoped running once I walked pass the speakers. lol


It's a good thing I don't live in the 'hood, or I'd be hitting the floor during every battle scene...

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AnalogRocks
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PostLink    Posted: Thu May 22, 2008 11:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What no flash backs?
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garyfritz




Joined: 08 Apr 2006
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PostLink    Posted: Fri May 23, 2008 2:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I got a new 9V battery for the Rat, but I'm still not sure what signal to use in DVE. Can somebody point me to the correct chapter/verse?
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wallace123456




Joined: 14 Aug 2006
Posts: 2236
Location: Northwest VA area


PostLink    Posted: Fri May 23, 2008 3:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

papalek wrote:
I listen at or above reference level. When a door slams in the back ground I want my guests to turn and look behind them. Mr. Green Besides when something blows up on screen I want everyone to "feel" the explosion. Mr. Green Thumbs Up Thats why I have 3 of the 21" subs and around 7000 watts of power in a 6.5 set up(yes 5 subs 3-21's and 2-15's). Thumbs Up


Thumbs Up I hear you LOUD AND CLEAR! My kinda ht!

wallace

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Person99




Joined: 09 Mar 2006
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PostLink    Posted: Fri May 23, 2008 2:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garyfritz wrote:
I got a new 9V battery for the Rat, but I'm still not sure what signal to use in DVE. Can somebody point me to the correct chapter/verse?


http://blog.audiovideointeriors.com/howto/207howto/

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garyfritz




Joined: 08 Apr 2006
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PostLink    Posted: Fri May 23, 2008 3:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cool page! But I still don't see where it says what signal to use. There are tons of pink noise samples on the disk. Do I just pick one that goes to all speakers? Or is there a particular reference / calibrated tone that would give the right measurements?
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Person99




Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4901
Location: Flower Mound, TX


PostLink    Posted: Fri May 23, 2008 3:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garyfritz wrote:
Cool page! But I still don't see where it says what signal to use. There are tons of pink noise samples on the disk. Do I just pick one that goes to all speakers? Or is there a particular reference / calibrated tone that would give the right measurements?


for speaker level calibration, use the white noise. You can calibrate at 75db. Get all the speaker levels the same at the listening postion. Note what your volume knob is at when doing 75 db, so you'll know that level. You can also see what your volume knob reads at 85 db for reference.

Many people like to calibrate their surrounds about 2 db higher and the center about 1-2 db lower. You might try that to see if you like it.

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garyfritz




Joined: 08 Apr 2006
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PostLink    Posted: Fri May 23, 2008 4:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't see a white noise sample. There's "full band pink noise" in title 9, which is probably what I want? The summary card doesn't show any all-speakers chapters of full-band pink noise, but I think there was some point when they turned them all on.

So at 75dB you're setting speaker levels to be all the same or whatever. I used the AVR's internal tones for that, but I can do it again with DVE's white noise. Then play full-band pink noise on all speakers to read 85dB and that's "reference level," correct? Then set it to my normal listening level, read again, and that will tell me how many dB above/below "reference" I usually listen?

I already have trouble with dialog, in spite of the sound treatments in my room. I have my center several dB *high*. I'm surprised people like it 1-2 dB low. They must have much better centers than I do.
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Person99




Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4901
Location: Flower Mound, TX


PostLink    Posted: Fri May 23, 2008 4:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garyfritz wrote:
I don't see a white noise sample. There's "full band pink noise" in title 9, which is probably what I want? The summary card doesn't show any all-speakers chapters of full-band pink noise, but I think there was some point when they turned them all on.


Now you are going to make me look at that discs navigation! Smile full band pink is OK to use. Just do one speaker at a time.

garyfritz wrote:
So at 75dB you're setting speaker levels to be all the same or whatever.


Yes, from your primary listening position, all speakers should read the same level and the sound goes to them one at a time. Use the "level" adjustment in your AVR to get them all the same.

Once they all read the same 75 db, then whatever number your volume knob says is your "reference-10db" level. Do it again 1 at a time with the speakers at 85. That is your "reference" volume level.

So, if your volume knob says 45 when each speaker reads 75 db and you watch movies at "45", then you watch movies at 10 db below reference. If your volume knob says 58 when each speaker reads 85 db...

garyfritz wrote:
I already have trouble with dialog, in spite of the sound treatments in my room. I have my center several dB *high*. I'm surprised people like it 1-2 dB low. They must have much better centers than I do.


Poor intelligibility of the center is more often the room. Are you getting all first reflections? If so, it might be your center speaker. Generally, center is already mixed higher with a boost on dialog. Taking the center down 1 or 2 db can level it all out and make the front sound stage a little bit more involving.

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perisoft




Joined: 29 Aug 2007
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PostLink    Posted: Fri May 23, 2008 5:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've got a BSR spectrum analyzer / pink noise generator with associated (presumably calibrated) mic. A while ago (when the HT was still upstairs) I went through and equalized everything - got the response equal all around from my seating position, got all the curves flat, etc.

Sounded horrible!

So... either the analyzer is total trash, or you actually don't want flat EQ. The levels ended up OK, but setting the EQ flat just made everything harsh.

I've got some issues with my center, too - it seems to get harsh in a hurry. Not sure why; whether it's the speaker or the amp or acoustics or what. Hopefully it'll improve once I get the room carpeted, but I suspect I'll need to figure out some way to do some acoustic treatment; the Cerwin Vegas sound great upstairs (vaulted ceiling, 30x30 room) but a bit dead downstairs in the HT room (14x12x8, complete cube).

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papalek




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PostLink    Posted: Fri May 23, 2008 6:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You can not equalize all the channels properly with ONE EQ. I have 4 of the same EQ that you are using. That gives me one set of bands for each channel. It sounds great.
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perisoft




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PostLink    Posted: Fri May 23, 2008 6:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had a modicum of control because I was using a separate receiver for each channel (or set of channels) and had the controls in AC3Filter in Zplayer. I didn't get stuff perfect but things were a hell of a lot flatter when I finished than when I started. I only have one real EQ (16 band Harman Kardon) and that I'm using for the center channel at the moment. But this may get swapped around, of course, when I get things going again...
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garyfritz




Joined: 08 Apr 2006
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PostLink    Posted: Fri May 23, 2008 7:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Person99 wrote:
Once they all read the same 75 db, then whatever number your volume knob says is your "reference-10db" level. Do it again 1 at a time with the speakers at 85. That is your "reference" volume level.

Waitaminnit. You're saying that when **each individual speaker** puts out 85dB at listening position, that's "reference" level?? So you adjust the volume at a level where the left front ALONE produces 85dB, and the rear center ALONE produces 85dB, etc? You will end up with the sound level considerably above 85dB when you turn on all speakers at once, won't you?

Quote:
Poor intelligibility of the center is more often the room. Are you getting all first reflections?

Not all, no. I have no treatment on the ceiling, and only carpet on the floor. But I have 2" OC703 mounted 2" off the wall at the left/right reflection points. I also have 4" OC703 covering the front two corners, floor-to-ceiling -- roughly 4' x 8' -- for bass traps. See pic. Blue walls, and floor under the pad & carpet, are concrete.

I also have a cheezy center, which is very likely a big part of the problem. Embarassed



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Person99




Joined: 09 Mar 2006
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Location: Flower Mound, TX


PostLink    Posted: Fri May 23, 2008 8:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="garyfritz"]
Person99 wrote:
Once they all read the same 75 db, then whatever number your volume knob says is your "reference-10db" level. Do it again 1 at a time with the speakers at 85. That is your "reference" volume level.

Waitaminnit. You're saying that when **each individual speaker** puts out 85dB at listening position, that's "reference" level?? So you adjust the volume at a level where the left front ALONE produces 85dB, and the rear center ALONE produces 85dB, etc? You will end up with the sound level considerably above 85dB when you turn on all speakers at once, won't you?[QUOTE]

That is correct. That is why most people really listen at about -10 db in home theaters. With all three front channels going it is about 90 db. Which is not quiet by any means. Listening at reference means that when all three front channels are going you are at about 100 db with peaks topping 120 db--or louder than a power saw or sand blaster. Listening above reference levels means your peaks are about as loud as a gun shot! How many people you REALLY think listen at this level?

Basically, no one listens above reference levels in a home theater. I put the option on there for fun to see how many "look at my big dick...I have 7 million watts pushing 40 24" subs...I like it LOUD" responses I would get. Mr. Green

BTW, if you are calibrating with DVE, it is -30dBFSD. So, calibrating to 75 db is really reference levels (because reference is -20dBFSD). If you use DVE 75 db is reference. If you don't touch your volume knob and put in Avia, the same tones will be 85 db.

So, again:
Using the RS analog meter and DVE, each speaker reading 75 db is reference.
Using Niles or Avia and the RS analog meter, each speaker reading 85 db is reference.

Of these, the Niles disc is the most accurate and actually designed to be used with the RS meter. But, you will be within a few db, so close enough, with the others.

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perisoft




Joined: 29 Aug 2007
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PostLink    Posted: Fri May 23, 2008 9:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

That is correct. That is why most people really listen at about -10 db in home theaters. With all three front channels going it is about 90 db. Which is not quiet by any means. Listening at reference means that when all three front channels are going you are at about 100 db with peaks topping 120 db--or louder than a power saw or sand blaster. Listening above reference levels means your peaks are about as loud as a gun shot! How many people you REALLY think listen at this level?


I'm guessing a lot of theaters don't get anywhere near reference, then, particularly on the low end. Even with a paltry four subs @ about 1kw RMS combined I have a lot more low end than most commercial theaters, I'm guessing because of bleed between the rooms. Fronts and center I think are roughly similar given a good seat in a commercial theater, but depending on the theater, the surrounds are almost inaudible sometimes. Not sure if that's due to seating or crappy setup, or just the necessities of not having it horrifically loud for the guys in the back corners and so forth.

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Person99




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PostLink    Posted: Fri May 23, 2008 9:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

perisoft wrote:
Quote:

That is correct. That is why most people really listen at about -10 db in home theaters. With all three front channels going it is about 90 db. Which is not quiet by any means. Listening at reference means that when all three front channels are going you are at about 100 db with peaks topping 120 db--or louder than a power saw or sand blaster. Listening above reference levels means your peaks are about as loud as a gun shot! How many people you REALLY think listen at this level?


I'm guessing a lot of theaters don't get anywhere near reference, then, particularly on the low end. Even with a paltry four subs @ about 1kw RMS combined I have a lot more low end than most commercial theaters, I'm guessing because of bleed between the rooms. Fronts and center I think are roughly similar given a good seat in a commercial theater, but depending on the theater, the surrounds are almost inaudible sometimes. Not sure if that's due to seating or crappy setup, or just the necessities of not having it horrifically loud for the guys in the back corners and so forth.


And how many of them do you think measure 16 foot-lamberts at screen center with no film in the projector?!?!? Not many I've seen.

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Jester




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PostLink    Posted: Sat May 24, 2008 2:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well I have to say I voted above reference. Now that said Its only when I'm in the theater and no one is home. I have 2 (two) setups ..... If i set it up for more than just me, movie night ..... tv watching I am about 10 below reference and the wife just made the comment that I have a prefect balance of sound from all speakers, not to loud in any one place. And we all know if she likes it and I enjoy it, thats the best setup in the world.
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garyfritz




Joined: 08 Apr 2006
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PostLink    Posted: Thu May 29, 2008 7:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

FWIW: I finally got my system set up properly (was feeding the AVR "stereo" PCM instead of AC-3 bitstream, oooops Embarassed) and did a quick level set. Looks like "reference" on my system is with the "Volume" control at 60. That's where DVE individual speakers read 75dB. E.g. with broad-spectrum noise going into just the left, or just the center, or just the rear surround, the Ratshack reads 75dB. DVE doesn't have a chapter that plays ALL channels so I don't know how it adds together.

So then I popped in the Incredibles and watched the first robot battle scene on the island. Damn -- "reference" is LOUD!! And I thought I liked to listen pretty loud. Maybe that level would work for quiet chick flicks, but it'll blow your beer over with an action movie.

I know what "Volume" level I usually listen at, but with the changes to my audio settings those old volume settings are invalid now. I dropped it 10 on the volume knob and that seemed like a pretty good level -- loud enough, but I could still watch it with my kids. Could listen a bit louder by myself. So then I set up the Rat again and it looks like that level was just about -10dB.
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