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Before and after HCFR cal files - recommendations please.

 
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ExCavTanker




Joined: 08 Nov 2007
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PostLink    Posted: Sat May 10, 2008 9:54 pm    Post subject: Before and after HCFR cal files - recommendations please. Reply with quote


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I finally tried out my new Eye-One Display LT using HCFR software last night (thanks Kal for your awesome article to help me get started) and would like the folks with more experience than I to look at what I've done so far and let me know where I should concentrate on next.

While not a FPTV, it is a CRT display; Mitsubishi 1080i RPTV.


The first file is a grayscale reading as I have been watching tv, I could not believe how far out my settings were. I've used calibration discs before and THOUGHT I was close, NOT!


The second file is my fifth grayscale reading after going through the process outlined by Kal, while I know there is much room for improvement it is immensely better and I must say, just from the changes I've made the image is so much more realistic it's not even funny.


I did not check the primaries on the baseline pass but did on the fifth pass, it appears they are all out of spec, can anything be done with that?


Thanks in advance for any rcommendations on what direction to go next.
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kal
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Location: Ottawa, Canada

TV/Projector: JVC DLA-NZ7


PostLink    Posted: Sun May 11, 2008 7:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow. Yeah, those initial readings are pretty bad! In most of the graphs the points are so far off that the graphs are blank! Smile


What sort if equipement are you using here? What colorimeter did you measure with? Just curious.

My thoughts:

Your values are actually all pretty good. The critical 30 to 80 IRE range has DeltaE's considerably under of less than 10 so that's great!

Your average gamma is a just a little bit low (2.1 instead of 2.2 - ie, just a little too much gamma). Probably good enough and likely looks very good on a smaller RPTV set. Not much you can do here really unless you're using an external device to adjust gamma (are you?), in which case you might want to turn it down just slightly.

You may want to try:

Raising the red at the low end a bit to see if you can reduce the red drop off at the low end a bit. It may increase the red hump you have at 50 IRE, in which case leave it as is. 50 IRE is more important that trying to get under 30 IRE better.

Raising the blue at the high end a little bit. I think you likely have some room to do this as blue is fairly flat from 50 to 80 and then drops slighly after. It may help compensate with the red hump at 50 IRE too.

Good work! I can't believe the before & after difference!

Kal

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kal
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PostLink    Posted: Sun May 11, 2008 7:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Re: Primaries

Not much can do done (easily) about that without possible physical modification of the unit. Measure your secondaries too just to see where they fall. (Just curious how close they are).

I'm still writing the primaries/secondaries secion but a lot of that is not really how to fix things (as it's very display specific and usually not easily done) but instead explaining what it all means.

Kal

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ExCavTanker




Joined: 08 Nov 2007
Posts: 28



PostLink    Posted: Sun May 11, 2008 5:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kal wrote:
Wow. Yeah, those initial readings are pretty bad! In most of the graphs the points are so far off that the graphs are blank! Smile


What sort if equipement are you using here? What colorimeter did you measure with? Just curious.


My thoughts:

Your values are actually all pretty good. The critical 30 to 80 IRE range has DeltaE's considerably under of less than 10 so that's great!

Your average gamma is a just a little bit low (2.1 instead of 2.2 - ie, just a little too much gamma). Probably good enough and likely looks very good on a smaller RPTV set. Not much you can do here really unless you're using an external device to adjust gamma (are you?), in which case you might want to turn it down just slightly.

You may want to try:

Raising the red at the low end a bit to see if you can reduce the red drop off at the low end a bit. It may increase the red hump you have at 50 IRE, in which case leave it as is. 50 IRE is more important that trying to get under 30 IRE better.

Raising the blue at the high end a little bit. I think you likely have some room to do this as blue is fairly flat from 50 to 80 and then drops slighly after. It may help compensate with the red hump at 50 IRE too.

Good work! I can't believe the before & after difference!

Kal



Kal,

If it was a snake it would've bit ya (I mentioned using the Eye-One Display LT in the first sentence of my post:) which I bought through your Amazon link to help support the guide! The TV is a Mits WS-55805 (circa 2001). The source is a PS3 with AVS HD 709 test disc, component input to the TV.

As far as gamma I thought I'd have to buy the RTC2200 or Box1020 (and will when I get the HD Fury) but I was able to find a gamma register in the Mits service menu. The original setting was 3 on a range from 0-15. I changed it to 15 before my last reading and that's what's currently there, yes, there was a bit of black crush, but after reading your post I changed it to 13 using an image of a dark shirt with shadows and it does show more shadow detail after the change but I haven't rerun a test yet to see what the graph does.

I have tried to raise blue at the high end to bring that 100IRE up but when I do that it sent the mid-range numbers way high on blue compare to the other numbers. No where like the blue hump like in your guide, but noticeable. I have been using the 30-80, based on my graphs would there be any reason to move 10 either way from the 80, or should I just stick with 80?

The only issue I've had so far is sometimes the sensor will just 'hang', not even moving to the 100IRE will 'wake it up'. I've had to actually close the program, kill the service process and restart the program, it's frustrating but it's been a small price to pay. The most true thing in your guide is that making one change effects everything else, whether it's the relationship between RGB at a given IRE or the releationship between IRE's at either end of the spectrum, patience is a virtue here:).

If anyone is reading this that's sitting on the fence whether to DIY, with the Eye-One and Kal's guide and access to your service menu you can do it too.

Thanks again Kal, my eyes (and my wife's eyes) can't believe the difference, the image just looks more real. I didn't think the faces were sunburned but now I see they were, amazing difference. I know there's still a little room for improvement but I'm very pleased with it, plus, I did it myself:).


Last edited by ExCavTanker on Sun May 11, 2008 9:40 pm; edited 1 time in total
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ExCavTanker




Joined: 08 Nov 2007
Posts: 28



PostLink    Posted: Sun May 11, 2008 5:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kal wrote:
Re: Primaries

Not much can do done (easily) about that without possible physical modification of the unit. Measure your secondaries too just to see where they fall. (Just curious how close they are).

I'm still writing the primaries/secondaries section but a lot of that is not really how to fix things (as it's very display specific and usually not easily done) but instead explaining what it all means.

Kal



I'll check the primaries and secondaries the next time I measure and post it.
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ExCavTanker




Joined: 08 Nov 2007
Posts: 28



PostLink    Posted: Sun May 11, 2008 9:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here is the last of five passes I made today. I made some passes with raising the Red Low by two but it was even more off in the mid-range. I also raised Blue Low up 1 and Blue High up one. Other than the 40 to 70 range where the red is high I think it's the best yet. I also tried different gamma settings and no matter what I do they are way off in the high range (low) and a little high in the low range.

Your thoughts on this one?
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ExCavTanker




Joined: 08 Nov 2007
Posts: 28



PostLink    Posted: Mon May 12, 2008 12:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kal or anyone else,

What do the R-YR, R-YB, G-YR, and G-YB settings in my service menu influence? Do they have any effect on primaries or secondaries? How about grayscale?

(EDIT) I found out they are used for the color decoder, what I don't know is how they can be used with the Eye-One and HCFR.
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delphiplasma




Joined: 06 May 2008
Posts: 14



PostLink    Posted: Mon May 12, 2008 12:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi,

I haven't got around to testing the comparisons between using the 'plasma' setting or 'LCD' settings for the Eye-One sensor, but to suffice, the 'HCFR' help document recommends the 'Plasma' setting to be used for 'Plasma' displays, as that setting has been specifically set-up for the Plasma light spectra.

I've calibrated my Plasma and have fantastic results via the component input, but when I switch the DVD player to progressive output, the Gamma drops significantly from '70ire' where the Gamma is something like '1.8' and almost '0' at '80ire'.

The luminance curve is similar. There appears to be a slight bump at around the 70%to 90% ire of increased luminance output. But in non-progressive mode it's a perfect curve.

I get the same via the composite input as the progressive mode.

The Green channel appears to be the worst effected.

I've tried manipulating the contrast level to know avail. And the Gamma setting is set to 'high' to achieve the best average gamma of '2'.

I get a total luminance output of around '28fl' at '100ire'

The greyscale adjustments made no difference to the results.

What do I need to do to improve those results?

The PQ, overall, looks excellent, since the greyscale tracking has been corrected. Great skin tones!.

Thanks in advance for you help.
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kal
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Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 17850
Location: Ottawa, Canada

TV/Projector: JVC DLA-NZ7


PostLink    Posted: Mon May 12, 2008 3:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ExCavTanker wrote:
If it was a snake it would've bit ya (I mentioned using the Eye-One Display LT in the first sentence of my post:)

Oops - that's what I get for posting at 2am. Smile

Quote:
I have tried to raise blue at the high end to bring that 100IRE up but when I do that it sent the mid-range numbers way high on blue compare to the other numbers. No where like the blue hump like in your guide, but noticeable. I have been using the 30-80, based on my graphs would there be any reason to move 10 either way from the 80, or should I just stick with 80?

You can move in either direction if you want but the result will be the same. I would leave it the way it was then, your numbers look great and as you mentioned the image is fantastic.

Quote:
If anyone is reading this that's sitting on the fence whether to DIY, with the Eye-One and Kal's guide and access to your service menu you can do it too.

Thanks again Kal, my eyes (and my wife's eyes) can't believe the difference, the image just looks more real. I didn't think the faces were sunburned but now I see they were, amazing difference. I know there's still a little room for improvement but I'm very pleased with it, plus, I did it myself:).

Thanks for the kind words! The best part is indeed doing it yourself as you can now do it again easily if you change equipement or displays!


ExCavTanker wrote:
Here is the last of five passes I made today. I made some passes with raising the Red Low by two but it was even more off in the mid-range. I also raised Blue Low up 1 and Blue High up one. Other than the 40 to 70 range where the red is high I think it's the best yet. I also tried different gamma settings and no matter what I do they are way off in the high range (low) and a little high in the low range.

Your thoughts on this one?

It's very similar to your last one... I'd use whichever looks better to you.

Kal

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kal
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Joined: 06 Mar 2006
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TV/Projector: JVC DLA-NZ7


PostLink    Posted: Mon May 12, 2008 3:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

delphiplasma wrote:
I've calibrated my Plasma and have fantastic results via the component input, but when I switch the DVD player to progressive output, the Gamma drops significantly from '70ire' where the Gamma is something like '1.8' and almost '0' at '80ire'.

The luminance curve is similar. There appears to be a slight bump at around the 70%to 90% ire of increased luminance output. But in non-progressive mode it's a perfect curve.

Strange. Sounds like your display is doing something odd at that point. I don't know your specific display so I have no idea what you could do.

Kal

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ExCavTanker




Joined: 08 Nov 2007
Posts: 28



PostLink    Posted: Mon May 12, 2008 10:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kal,

Thanks for the review of my last cal file, I'll keep it where it's at for now, at least until I get the HD Fury then I'll rerun the numbers.




delphiplasma,

I hereby absolve you of thread hijacking Very Happy .

Is it possible that the fault lies with the DVD player? If you don't own an HDMI player (good time to get a PS3) maybe you could borrow one and see if the problem still exists. At least that will show where the problem lies. In the interim, check your current DVD player for any settings that may be effecting gamma/luminence issues.
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delphiplasma




Joined: 06 May 2008
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PostLink    Posted: Mon May 12, 2008 10:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, it is strange. It is a Sony Plasma KE32 TS2E with a Sony HDX510 DVD recorder. It's like some kind of artificial boost.. I'll have a look in the service mode menu to see if there is anything there, but my guess would be no.

Could be the DVD player? I've got a pioneer DVD player, but that is in use on my more high end system, which has a SDI output, so not sure if the component output will be working?

All in all the gamma is relatively flat in the all important 20 ire to 70 ire. PQ is very good. Colour is spot on with no 'red push' or 'orange reds'!
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ExCavTanker




Joined: 08 Nov 2007
Posts: 28



PostLink    Posted: Mon May 12, 2008 10:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

delphiplasma wrote:
Yes, it is strange. It is a Sony Plasma KE32 TS2E with a Sony HDX510 DVD recorder. It's like some kind of artificial boost.. I'll have a look in the service mode menu to see if there is anything there, but my guess would be no.

Could be the DVD player? I've got a pioneer DVD player, but that is in use on my more high end system, which has a SDI output, so not sure if the component output will be working?

All in all the gamma is relatively flat in the all important 20 ire to 70 ire. PQ is very good. Colour is spot on with no 'red push' or 'orange reds'!


I'm not sure if component is shut off when an SDI mod is done, I suppose you could always try it. I tried to find the owner's manual for your DVD recorder to see if it's a setting there that's causing the issue but no luck. If it were me, I'd still try another DVD player to see if you can replicate it.

Are you using and Eye-One sensor with HCFR? I'd say skin tone are the most noticeable as well after calibration, but the whole image just looks more natural and detailed.

Wow, I see your plasma is only putting out 28fl, my RPTV is just under 42fl at 100IRE and the sun in my living room still kicks it's butt (blinds closed), looks like no plasma for me Sad . But, once the sun goes down, happy eyeballs Very Happy .
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delphiplasma




Joined: 06 May 2008
Posts: 14



PostLink    Posted: Mon May 12, 2008 11:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think my component is switched off! but I will double check.

The DVD recorder has some basic picture set-up, I may try modifying them to see if I can get an improvement.

I am, indeed, using an Eye one sensor with HCFR.

The 28fl was my personal setting. Thought that it might help control the 70-90 ire readings. Also, my eyes seem use to that output, picture is smoother, but still has plenty of clarity! But don't underestimate the power of the plasma!

Don't forget, it's always dull in good old blighty, so it doesn't take much to be stunned by an old B&W TV
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