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kal Forum Administrator
Joined: 06 Mar 2006 Posts: 17850 Location: Ottawa, Canada
TV/Projector: JVC DLA-NZ7
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Link Posted: Wed Mar 15, 2006 4:45 pm Post subject: SCREENSHOTS from my old Barco 800 |
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The BG800 come down in Fall 2005 (replaced with a 155 hour Zenith PRO 1200x), so I figured after 4 years it was about time I took some screenshots.
Just thought I'd post this as it seems that some of the older 8" ES CRT models like this don't get any love around here anymore. I still find it amazing what the coloured glycol does for NTSC DVD playback. You won't get colours like this from a stock Barco 70x/808/808s/1208/1209, Marquee 8xxx/9xxx, etc. as they all use clear glycol or [mostly] clear c-elements!
HT equipment used:
- A 26,000 hour (yes, that's 26,000) BG800 with still pristine (obviously not original) tubes with zero wear. Contrast at 65/100. I replaced most e-caps in this machine a couple of years back along with the RGB output FETs and a few other power semiconductors. (This was done to increase convergence stability as the set was getting a bit old).
- Source is a 4 year old HTPC running TheaterTek 1.2 with an ATI 7200 video card (old!). Nothing fancy. No post-processing with FFDshow or the like. Just TheaterTek driving the $30 ATI 7200 video card out to the projector.
- Screen is 1.1-1.2 gain made from 96x54" curtain blackout material painted with Behr Ultrawhite paint. More info here.
Photography equipment used: Canon Digital Rebel SLR camera (model 300D), 50mm prime lens, tripod. Camera set to aperature priority (most shots are f/4), used timer to avoid camera shake. I shot all in RAW format and developed using Phase One C1 Pro instead of letting the camera do the developing for me.
I've been incredibly happy with the picture quality that this thing has put out over the years (even more so after the upgrades I did to it). The level of image quality the main reason why I haven't been in any hurry to upgrade to another CRT (or digital for that matter). If I wasn't happy, I would have upgraded a long time ago... Alas, the new projector that Curt's giving me for managing his web site will be here tomorrow so this one will have to come down I suppose ...
Note: While I still find that the pics still lack some of the 'punch' and sharpness you see in person, they do indicate fairly closely what things look like person. Oddly enough the screenshots show considerable colour shifting from left to right and hotspotting in the center of the screen (see the Avia test pic below). None of this actually show up in person however. Strange. Anyone photo buffs out there know why? I'll have to play around a bit more with different lenses and settings and see if I can get these better.
Blow is a picture with the lights on to show what I'm doing, taken with a wide angle lens (18mm) (other photos were all taken from the same spot behind the second row but with a 50mm lens)
Enjoy!
Some hi-rez photos displayed at 720p from my HTPC (photos were stolen from photo.net)
NTSC DVD material (scaled to 720p)
Kal
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Last edited by kal on Tue Nov 07, 2006 8:24 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Rolf Hult
Joined: 08 Mar 2006 Posts: 84 Location: Sandnes, Norway
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Link Posted: Wed Mar 15, 2006 7:32 pm Post subject: |
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Now THAT's colorful! Very nice old brick that old Barco...oldies but goldies
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RBV
Joined: 10 Mar 2006 Posts: 19 Location: Finland
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Link Posted: Wed Mar 15, 2006 7:52 pm Post subject: |
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*Sniff*
I've been just reminded about my old 801s, which I switched to Marquee 7500 about a month ago. It also had coloured glycol and the colors, well, they were simply stunning compared to Marquee's clear glycols. Marquee is far better on other areas, no doubt, but I simply can't get those vivid colors back...
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Drew Packard
Joined: 12 Mar 2006 Posts: 43 Location: Monroe, Washington
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Link Posted: Wed Mar 15, 2006 7:58 pm Post subject: |
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Kal,
Those have GOT to be the best BG 800 pics I've ever seen!
Drew
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kal Forum Administrator
Joined: 06 Mar 2006 Posts: 17850 Location: Ottawa, Canada
TV/Projector: JVC DLA-NZ7
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Rolf Hult
Joined: 08 Mar 2006 Posts: 84 Location: Sandnes, Norway
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Link Posted: Wed Mar 15, 2006 8:33 pm Post subject: |
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RBV wrote: | *Sniff*
I've been just reminded about my old 801s, which I switched to Marquee 7500 about a month ago. It also had coloured glycol and the colors, well, they were simply stunning compared to Marquee's clear glycols. Marquee is far better on other areas, no doubt, but I simply can't get those vivid colors back... |
Get that Quee fitted with HD144 lenses, and THEN come back with happy tears
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kal Forum Administrator
Joined: 06 Mar 2006 Posts: 17850 Location: Ottawa, Canada
TV/Projector: JVC DLA-NZ7
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Link Posted: Fri Apr 03, 2009 5:04 pm Post subject: |
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Bump! 3 years later...
I thought I'd bump this to bring back some of the love again for older ES focusing CRT projectors like the Barco 800/801, Sony 125x/126x, Electrohome ECP, etc.
In this day of always wanting the best and the latest, we forget how enjoyable a movie can still be on a "lower" end set. Given that some of these are practically being given away these days it's a steal!
Kal
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AnalogRocks Forum Moderator
Joined: 08 Mar 2006 Posts: 26690 Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
TV/Projector: Sony 1252Q, AMPRO 4000G
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Link Posted: Fri Apr 03, 2009 5:13 pm Post subject: |
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Yep they are a steal especialy with the colored glycol.
I love the colors on the Sony 1252.
When I got my Ampro4000 the colors were a let down. Clear C-elements in that one.
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HD done right!
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emdawgz1
Joined: 14 Mar 2006 Posts: 7949
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Link Posted: Fri Apr 03, 2009 5:24 pm Post subject: |
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kal wrote: | Bump! 3 years later...
I thought I'd bump this to bring back some of the love again for older ES focusing CRT projectors like the Barco 800/801, Sony 125x/126x, Electrohome ECP, etc.
In this day of always wanting the best and the latest, we forget how enjoyable a movie can still be on a "lower" end set. Given that some of these are practically being given away these days it's a steal!
Kal |
And you said you cant take good screenshots?!?!?!?
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kal Forum Administrator
Joined: 06 Mar 2006 Posts: 17850 Location: Ottawa, Canada
TV/Projector: JVC DLA-NZ7
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taxman
Joined: 25 Feb 2008 Posts: 30 Location: Finland
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Link Posted: Fri Apr 03, 2009 8:01 pm Post subject: |
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Now it's the time to see some *NEW* screenshots taken using lower end CRT projectors... or is it so that nobody is up to the challenge?
Can we finally say that the cheap digitals have overrun all so-called low-end CRT's?
Show us what you've got, or it doesn't exist!
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effecci
Joined: 16 Jan 2009 Posts: 8
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kal Forum Administrator
Joined: 06 Mar 2006 Posts: 17850 Location: Ottawa, Canada
TV/Projector: JVC DLA-NZ7
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Link Posted: Sat Apr 04, 2009 2:38 am Post subject: |
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taxman wrote: | Now it's the time to see some *NEW* screenshots taken using lower end CRT projectors... or is it so that nobody is up to the challenge?
Can we finally say that the cheap digitals have overrun all so-called low-end CRT's?
Show us what you've got, or it doesn't exist! |
Why do you need "new" screenshots? What would be "new" about them? It's still the same low-end CRT projectors. If I took new screenshots of the same projector (assuming I still had it) they'd look pretty much like the ones I posted above.
Kal
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akajester
Joined: 09 Jul 2008 Posts: 934 Location: Wisconsin
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Link Posted: Sat Apr 04, 2009 2:55 am Post subject: |
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excellent screenshots Kal. I'm very happy with my bg808. I'm sure it could get better, but ignorance is bliss eh? I'm curious about the upgrades you did to fix your convergence. can you provide more info? Thanks!
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km987654
Joined: 25 Jul 2007 Posts: 2852 Location: Australia
TV/Projector: Barco BG809s
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Link Posted: Sat Apr 04, 2009 10:00 am Post subject: |
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I would have to agree with Kal. Not much seems to be said about ES projectors seems the chat is all EM.
Kal those images are great you really tunned that projector well and it just shows ES projectors properly set up still cut it. I have got a long way to go to get anything like those images but I will keep working at it now that I can see what can be done.
Thanks Kal
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taxman
Joined: 25 Feb 2008 Posts: 30 Location: Finland
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Link Posted: Sat Apr 04, 2009 1:43 pm Post subject: |
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kal wrote: | Why do you need "new" screenshots? What would be "new" about them? It's still the same low-end CRT projectors. If I took new screenshots of the same projector (assuming I still had it) they'd look pretty much like the ones I posted above.
Kal |
"New" as in not seen before. I would love to see what people who are still using ES CRT's have accomplished with their setups. Hence the provocating post
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RobertMfromLI
Joined: 29 Jun 2009 Posts: 114 Location: West Islip, NY
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Link Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2009 6:40 pm Post subject: Re: SCREENSHOTS from my old Barco 800 |
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kal wrote: | Oddly enough the screenshots show considerable colour shifting from left to right and hotspotting in the center of the screen (see the Avia test pic below). None of this actually show up in person however. Strange. Anyone photo buffs out there know why?
Kal |
I know why. It's the way that cameras react to reflected light and hotspots. There are actually a variety of reasons. When I Gaff (gaffer) for Star Trek Phase 2. The camera never sees what the eye does - even when using such expensive beasts as the Red.
Part of it is we have binocular vision, part is that our brains adjust for brightness and contrast over a scene for each area (which even the best cameras are still crappy at doing in comparison), part of it is the sensitivity of CCDs to such things, part of it is the lenses (certain areas allow more light to come in than others... depends on the thickness and such), anyway, there are a lot of reasons. As for the CCDs themselves, they are really sensitive to certain light and certain contrast - and certain wavelengths. Just see what happens if you take a picture of a white LED or even an IR emitter.
_________________ Kirk's 5 Year Mission continues at Star Trek New Voyages: Phase 2
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kal Forum Administrator
Joined: 06 Mar 2006 Posts: 17850 Location: Ottawa, Canada
TV/Projector: JVC DLA-NZ7
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Link Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2009 6:48 pm Post subject: Re: SCREENSHOTS from my old Barco 800 |
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RobertMfromLI wrote: | kal wrote: | Oddly enough the screenshots show considerable colour shifting from left to right and hotspotting in the center of the screen (see the Avia test pic below). None of this actually show up in person however. Strange. Anyone photo buffs out there know why?
Kal |
I know why. It's the way that cameras react to reflected light and hotspots. There are actually a variety of reasons. When I Gaff (gaffer) for Star Trek Phase 2. The camera never sees what the eye does - even when using such expensive beasts as the Red.
Part of it is we have binocular vision, part is that our brains adjust for brightness and contrast over a scene for each area (which even the best cameras are still crappy at doing in comparison), part of it is the sensitivity of CCDs to such things, part of it is the lenses (certain areas allow more light to come in than others... depends on the thickness and such), anyway, there are a lot of reasons. As for the CCDs themselves, they are really sensitive to certain light and certain contrast - and certain wavelengths. Just see what happens if you take a picture of a white LED or even an IR emitter. |
Thanks! I was just thinking about why this would happen when I read my original post today (after linking to one of your threads) and figured it had a lot to do with the binocular vision we have and the way our brains compensate without us even knowing.
It's true that our eyes have a contrast range that is far greater than any camera and/or film combination out there. Technology still has a LOOOOONG way to go before it can even start to match what our eyes can do!
Kal
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perisoft
Joined: 29 Aug 2007 Posts: 2920 Location: Ithaca, NY
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Link Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2009 11:41 pm Post subject: Re: SCREENSHOTS from my old Barco 800 |
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kal wrote: |
It's true that our eyes have a contrast range that is far greater than any camera and/or film combination out there. Technology still has a LOOOOONG way to go before it can even start to match what our eyes can do!
Kal |
In some respects, the problem is that the technology is BETTER than our eyes. If you look at the raw 'pixel' output from your retina, it's awful - full of holes, crappy resolution, uneven, you name it. But our brains do a great job at making us think we're seeing a pristine image.
Imaging devices (input or output), however, tend to do the opposite: They do a fantastic job at reproducing exactly what's there, and do no compensation so stuff 'looks better'. When you see something on a screen, or a photo printed on paper, I suspect that your eyes 'fix' the image so you see what's printed, instead of 'fixing' the image so you see what your brain thinks is being portrayed by the printed image.
So - now, you see all the imperfections that the camera saw, but that your brain ignores in real life.
This is why it's so hard to make a gorgeous photo of a gorgeous scene; it's why cinematography is more difficult than an accurate sensor; it's why makeup artists are so valuable. You know those pictures of various celebrities without makeup, showing how awful they look in 'real life'? Well, the photos look lousy - but if you were in the room with the celebrities as the photo was taken, they'd probably be far from unattractive. Your brain fixes the scene it sees in real life, but doesn't fix the picture on the page or on screen.
And now you've got to go through a bunch of layers of that with a screenshot - the cinematographer has to make the image on film as compelling as the one in real life; the projector has to make the image on the screen as good as the input; the camera has to make the image on its CCD as good as the screen, your monitor has to make the image on the screen as good as the image captured by the CCD, and your brain then has to walk back through all those steps to 'see' the original scene. Not too easy...
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RVonse
Joined: 09 Mar 2006 Posts: 3049
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Link Posted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 12:49 am Post subject: |
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The Barco 800 has got to be one of the most underated and unappreciated crt projectors IMO. My first crt was also a Barco data 800 and not only did it have a great picture but it lasted me several years without a single break down. The Barco 1209 I replaced it with has already broken down twice, first with a smps card and then it needed a quad.
But maybe I just lucked out with the 800.
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