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'Greyscale & Colour Calibration for Dummies' Q/A thread
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fallengt



Joined: 09 Mar 2012
Posts: 9



PostLink    Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 4:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote


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Thanks Kal.
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PioneerAddict



Joined: 11 Mar 2012
Posts: 1
Location: Denmark


PostLink    Posted: Sun Mar 11, 2012 8:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Kai

Just tried the guide on my Pioneer Plasma, excellent guide and super result:thumbsup:. I used the DVE HD Basics disc though my PS3.
A few questions, when looking at HDTV films from my cable TV box, I can obviously not calbrite though this source using the above mentioned disk.
Would it give any meaning to calibrate using the same test images from my MacBook Pro via a HDMI cable or should I rely on the calibration done through my PS3?
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kal
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PostLink    Posted: Sun Mar 11, 2012 10:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would simply use the calbration that's already done for the cable box source as well.

Kal

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Guarddog13



Joined: 28 Feb 2012
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PostLink    Posted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 7:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

One more question. You mentioned the AVS even if burned to a DVD plays the content as bluray. I noticed when calibrating my CMS though that I can almost get spot on with the smpte standard as opposed to the rec709 standard. Which should I be using? This has been a debate on a thread about my particular tv on the avs forums, figured you could help shed some light on this.
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kal
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PostLink    Posted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 1:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Use whatever matches the source content you're watching.

Kal

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Guarddog13



Joined: 28 Feb 2012
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PostLink    Posted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 1:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kal wrote:
Use whatever matches the source content you're watching.

Kal


That's what I'm trying to figure out, my ps3 plays both bluray and DVDs so I don't know what "the source content" is. The ps3 claims the avs avc disk I'm playing is a DVD but you mention in your guide this is bluray content.
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kal
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PostLink    Posted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 1:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's blu-ray content. If you want to calibrate to Blu-ray then calibrate to Blu-ray standards (Rec709) and forget SD (Rec601).

It's only the primaries that are slightly different.

Most people don't have two sets of calibrations in their projector.

Kal

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Guarddog13



Joined: 28 Feb 2012
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PostLink    Posted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 6:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kal wrote:
It's blu-ray content. If you want to calibrate to Blu-ray then calibrate to Blu-ray standards (Rec709) and forget SD (Rec601).

It's only the primaries that are slightly different.

Most people don't have two sets of calibrations in their projector.

Kal


Thank you for the clarification. It helps a lot cause people on the thread where saying if I use a DVD it can't be bluray content, and we needed to be using the 601 standard.
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Guarddog13



Joined: 28 Feb 2012
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PostLink    Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 1:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kal,

Now that I've done my TV a friend wants me to do theirs, however they don't own a BluRay player. Now I did notice that their TV has built in full field IRE patterns from 5-100 in steps of 5. Can I get accurate results from the full filed patterns on a plasma display, or would it be smart for me to drag my PS3 to their house to use the smaller windows?
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kal
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PostLink    Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 1:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

When you calibrate you should always use the full signal chain. So use whatever they use to watch movies.

If they don't have a PS3, don't use a PS3 to calibrate. Use whatever source they use to watch.

Kal

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Guarddog13



Joined: 28 Feb 2012
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PostLink    Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 1:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kal wrote:
When you calibrate you should always use the full signal chain. So use whatever they use to watch movies.

If they don't have a PS3, don't use a PS3 to calibrate. Use whatever source they use to watch.

Kal


Ok then that makes sense. So then that brings me to another question. When I calibrated mine I used the ps3 and just carried over my settings for my cable source. I also have these full field patterns on my TV. Could I use these and get a more accurate result compared to my ps3 results. I actually do most my movie watching right from my cable source. Does using these full field patterns throw off the sensor compared to using the smaller window patterns?
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kal
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PostLink    Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 1:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Guarddog13 wrote:
Ok then that makes sense. So then that brings me to another question. When I calibrated mine I used the ps3 and just carried over my settings for my cable source.

That's what I do as well. Close enough.

Guarddog13 wrote:
I also have these full field patterns on my TV. Could I use these and get a more accurate result compared to my ps3 results.

Again, you're not just calibrating your TV but calibrating your TV for the source you use. So you should include the whole signal chain.

Quote:
Does using these full field patterns throw off the sensor compared to using the smaller window patterns?

Depends on the display device. CRT (and to a lesser degree plasma) tend to not be as bright when using full screen. So your contrast ratio/max contrast/high IRE readings may not be what you want them to be.

Kal

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Guarddog13



Joined: 28 Feb 2012
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PostLink    Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 1:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kal wrote:
Guarddog13 wrote:
Ok then that makes sense. So then that brings me to another question. When I calibrated mine I used the ps3 and just carried over my settings for my cable source.

That's what I do as well. Close enough.

Guarddog13 wrote:
I also have these full field patterns on my TV. Could I use these and get a more accurate result compared to my ps3 results.

Again, you're not just calibrating your TV but calibrating your TV for the source you use. So you should include the whole signal chain.

Quote:
Does using these full field patterns throw off the sensor compared to using the smaller window patterns?

Depends on the display device. CRT (and to a lesser degree plasma) tend to not be as bright when using full screen. So your contrast ratio/max contrast/high IRE readings may not be what you want them to be.

Kal


The reason I'm asking is because I did take a look at my calibration again last night. I ended buying a new i1 because of all the issues I was having previously. Now when I got my new one I spent hours on the 20 step IRE calibration, and actually got delta Es under 1-2. Looking at it again last night only 3 days after my calibration these values jumped to 3-4 delta E. Is it possible that a TV or even a brand new meter can variate from day to day? I'm literally beating my head against a wall here, and about to just give in a hire the geek squad to calibrate for me, and I don't want to spend the same time on a friends TV only for them to not be happy with the results.
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kal
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PostLink    Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 2:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Something somewhere changed. It could be just about anything.

dE jumping from 1-2 to 3-4 isn't a massive jump. A dE under 10 is considered "good". A dE under 3 is so good that most eyes can't discern the difference. A dE change of only 2 like you said probably isn't something you notice yourself. Do you?

You're falling into the pit that many people fall into: Trying to achieve absolute perfection and trying to get it to stick. That really isn't possible. While nobody should expect 100% perfection all the time, the errors introduced by using the really low end meter you're using (you're basically using the cheapest meter available) means you can't expect perfection to begin with and you can't expect the readings to be 100% accurate.

You may (for example) get a reading at 50 IRE that says the dE is +3. That may not be true. It maybe 0, or it may be -3. Your meter may not be 100% accurate.

Your meter may read numbers to two or three significant digits. That doesn't meant it's accurate. Don't confuse repeatibility with accuracy. Digital readings have done a lot over the past 30+ years to confuse this.

Kal

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Guarddog13



Joined: 28 Feb 2012
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PostLink    Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 2:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kal wrote:
Something somewhere changed. It could be just about anything.

dE jumping from 1-2 to 3-4 isn't a massive jump. A dE under 10 is considered "good". A dE under 3 is so good that most eyes can't discern the difference. A dE change of only 2 like you said probably isn't something you notice yourself. Do you?

You're falling into the pit that many people fall into: Trying to achieve absolute perfection and trying to get it to stick. That really isn't possible. While nobody should expect 100% perfection all the time, the errors introduced by using the really low end meter you're using (you're basically using the cheapest meter available) means you can't expect perfection to begin with and you can't expect the readings to be 100% accurate.

You may (for example) get a reading at 50 IRE that says the dE is +3. That may not be true. It maybe 0, or it may be -3. Your meter may not be 100% accurate.

Your meter may read numbers to two or three significant digits. That doesn't meant it's accurate. Don't confuse repeatibility with accuracy. Digital readings have done a lot over the past 30+ years to confuse this.

Kal


My wife always says I'm a perfectionist I'm guessing she's been right all these years lol...the pq seems great it was just bugging me cause I swear I still see a green tint and when I go from say a warmer or even cooler color temp from the tv presets to my calibrated temp instead of going from say bluish or redish to the opposite it seems to go to a reddish/greenish or bluish/greenish. Maybe it's just my eyes, but I swear it's there.
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kal
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PostLink    Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 3:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The tint may certainly be there. Your meter may be off. Without testing it against a known reference meter you just don't know.

Kal

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Guarddog13



Joined: 28 Feb 2012
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PostLink    Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 3:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kal wrote:
The tint may certainly be there. Your meter may be off. Without testing it against a known reference meter you just don't know.

Kal


Ya I'm gonna try a different method. I've been doing a full 20 point calibration figuring I'd get less errors overall this way. I'm gonna try the 2 point and maybe lessen user errors. See if this helps.
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fallengt



Joined: 09 Mar 2012
Posts: 9



PostLink    Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2012 3:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi,
Calibration Guide works great for my HDTV and would like to try it on my laptop too. It's kind of 3 years old and doesnt have best contrast. What are the target Luminance and Brightness for general usage?
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kal
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Joined: 06 Mar 2006
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Location: Ottawa, Canada

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PostLink    Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2012 4:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

fallengt wrote:
Hi,
Calibration Guide works great for my HDTV and would like to try it on my laptop too. It's kind of 3 years old and doesnt have best contrast. What are the target Luminance and Brightness for general usage?

The guide lists the target luminance (Y) values for various display devices. It says:

Quote:
Projectors (CRT and digital): 12-16 ftL*
Direct view sets (CRT tube, Plasma, rear projection, flat panel, etc.): 30-40 ftL


Your mileage may vary. Darker light controls rooms can go lower. For complete details see the guide.

There is no target for brightness (black level). You see it to make black as close to black as possible withing crushing low level (low light) detail. For complete details see the guide.

Note that this guide is for watching movies/TV/etc. A laptop used used for general work (ie: reading text/typing) doesn't really fall into this category and in fact can sometimes make text easier to read if you don't calibrate and just crank out the contrast. You likely don't type in the dark. I've never calibrated my laptops as it just doesn't matter to me.

Kal

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fallengt



Joined: 09 Mar 2012
Posts: 9



PostLink    Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2012 5:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

IIRC D65 white and 2.2 gamma are the standard for LCD monitors, also sRGB the default color space for windows is pretty much the same as Rec709. So I just assumed this guide still works for general usage with the right contrast and brightness.
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