CurtPalme.com Home Theater Forum

MikeEby · Joined: 24 Jun 2007 Posts: 5238 Location: Osceola, Indiana

**AnalogRocks** · Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2008 11:59 pm Post subject:

MikeEby · Joined: 24 Jun 2007 Posts: 5238 Location: Osceola, Indiana

lyd · Joined: 15 Sep 2007 Posts: 390 Location: Lake Mills, Wi

**AnalogRocks** · Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 2:01 am Post subject:

MikeEby · Joined: 24 Jun 2007 Posts: 5238 Location: Osceola, Indiana

Guys, that is interesting about DX10, I feel your pain but it might just be if you want to run games and alike that only support Direct X 10 then Vista might be your only choice. The beef should be with the software vendors that are only supporting DX10 but keep in mind XP has been available to OEM and retail customers since October 2001 that means the code goes back to the WMD driver model of Windows 98 that was released in late 1997. A lot has changed since then dual processors were only used in high end servers and workstations, 128 Mb ram was the norm if not excessive, still CPU clocks were still in the Mhz, Graphics Processor Units (GPU) were stone age by the standards of today & data bus speeds were a fraction of what they are now.

Since you brought up the issue I thought I would do a little research in determining some of the differences between DX9c and DX10. After reading a few articles I find the differences are extensive. There are major changes that go down to the core driver level. Vista uses a driver model called with no surprise “Windows Vista Display Driver Model” (WDDM).
Below is a link to a M$ white paper explaining some of the differences between XP and Vista graphics API. Warning these are a little geeky.

http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/library/bb173477(VS.85).aspx

The new model puts much more demand on the GPU than ever before even running tradition business desktop applications. Direct3D 10 is an important part of DX10 & the new Vista GUI skin “Areo Glass” is an example. I notice this after installing Vista on some low end PCs they did not have the AG skin. This is because the GPU does not have the guts to support the slick interface.

Below is a copy and paste of part of an article written in 2005 about Direct3D10 in DX10 and WDDM. These are not my own words.

I suggest you read the entire article and draw your own conclusions.
http://www.gamedev.net/reference/programming/features/d3d10overview/

The GPU is to be viewed as a shared resource in the system with multiple applications using and relying upon it – making stability a much more important factor. It's also worth noting that as GPU's become more powerful it is necessary to have a clean and efficient path for utilizing them. VDDM moves much more of the command scheduling and translation into 'user mode' and keeps only the essential parts in 'kernel mode' – such that if the hardware or driver crashes it's possible for the system to effectively restart the driver/hardware and avoid taking the whole system down.

Sharing the GPU is a big part of VDDM; to the extent that the video memory will be virtualized by the operating system. This will in turn allow for resource sharing across threads, which could become an important feature with the recent turn towards multi-programming. Another bonus of the GPU becoming a more central resource to the system is that the "lost device" scenario is gone – so applications no longer need to worry about handling it. However, there is a "device removed" state – which exists for the increasing number of laptops that come with docking stations.

Direct3D 10 also introduces the DirectX Graphics Infrastructure (DXGI) – a common foundation for this new release as well as any subsequent versions (e.g. Direct3D 10.1, 10.2, 11, 12 etc…). Much of the basic low-level resources and operations stay constant and common across most versions of Direct3D such that they've now been isolated from the core runtime. The benefit being that there is a stable and consistent foundation for the API to be based upon, and for application developers it should allow different API's (e.g. D3D10 and D3D11) to share resources.

Microsoft is a profit driven company, there is no doubt about that but after doing some quick research I feel that DX10 is more revolutionary then evolutionary because it cuts the ties to the previous versions display model that had limitations and there are good reasons for the changes. DX10 also sets new standards for future game development so perhaps this will be around for few years.

I have only studied some of the differences in the Direct3D portion of DX10 next I will look at direct show and try to understand why my Vista HTPC running seems very stable compared to the same HTPC running XP.

Perhaps the hacker will be successful in hacking XP to work with DX10 more power to him. But if they are actually including Vista code in XP and personally I see no advantage there. Why not just get Vista.

Mike

**AnalogRocks** · Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 6:32 am Post subject:

It's a DRM thing. Plus I have stuff that won't play nice with Vista. When I design a HTPC I make sure all the componets have drivers for the same operating system. If that was Win98 so be it. In this case everything worked on WinXP Pro so that's what I bought.

Windows is still a payne in the azz though.

lyd · Joined: 15 Sep 2007 Posts: 390 Location: Lake Mills, Wi

fireanimal · Joined: 17 Jul 2007 Posts: 231 Location: Stayner, ON

I think I will stay with Powerdvd unless Arcsoft fixes the sound problems. With Powerdvd I can use analog out from my Soundcard, and every format works now, except for DTS-HD Lossless. I couldn't imagine being forced to send a PCM 7.1 track into SPDIF connection, after hearing it in full glory.

IMHO the biggest upgrade with blu-ray and hd-dvd is the audio, you can upscale video to look almost as good, but there is nothing you can do about the audio, and going from 600 kbs to 7 mbps, is a very large jump in sound quality and dynamic range of the movies.

fireanimal · Joined: 17 Jul 2007 Posts: 231 Location: Stayner, ON

Double Post..Sorry

MikeEby · Joined: 24 Jun 2007 Posts: 5238 Location: Osceola, Indiana

fireanimal · Joined: 17 Jul 2007 Posts: 231 Location: Stayner, ON

I agree that Vista is far superior OS compared to XP, the developers, and hardware companies are the ones that are slow coming out of the gate, but if I remember right it was the same thing when XP was launched. I am no MS fanboy, but I do not understand peoples dislike for Microsoft, and Vista.....

After running Vista since RC1, I would not switch back to XP. The only thing that is flawed with Vista is that there are too many versions, but I think that was a marketing dept. decision. Two versions would be sufficent.

MikeEby · Joined: 24 Jun 2007 Posts: 5238 Location: Osceola, Indiana

fireanimal · Joined: 17 Jul 2007 Posts: 231 Location: Stayner, ON

As far as I am concerned Media Center is a complete waste until proper Cable Card support is released, and the interface can be used as PVR for Cable or Sattelite programing, that is when MCE will really take off. The interface is nice, but I launch everything from Windows Explorer, so the need is not there yet.

MS is on the right track with MCE, and using the 360 as an extender. It will be nice the day that you have a central PC with 4 tuner cards in it, and can watch live or PVR through the 360/MCE Extender anywhere in the house, maybe even a 2000 disc jukebox that can be accessed as well, then nobody would be ripping movies or music to their Hard Drives, and all this DRM crap can be thrown out the widow.

Overall MS has done a great job intergrating PC's into everyday lifestyle, they have went from a OS company, to a complete home entertainment supplier in less than 10 years.

**AnalogRocks** · Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 6:31 pm Post subject:

MikeEby · Joined: 24 Jun 2007 Posts: 5238 Location: Osceola, Indiana

Holy Crap!!!

Back on topic here guys...sorry!
I just downloaded a copy TM Theater from Arksoft's website and just for shits and grins I thought I would first try it on my notebook. It’s a decent little IBM Lenova T60 with a T7200 2.00 GHz Core 2 Duo processor with 2GB of DDR2 memory, its tricked out a little bit with a 7200 RPM 160 GB with 16 MB cache. Video is an ATI Mobility Radeon X1400 on 15” LCD @ 1680 x 1050 running Vista Business 32bit.

I had my old Xbox HD-DVD drive laying around so plugged it into the USB port. Vista went out somewhere and downloaded a driver for the drive it then asked me to reboot so I did. Then installed Arcsoft TM Theater trial, install went fine no issues. Popped in King Kong, a message came up telling me the menus are disabled with for use with the mouse, Ok…I can deal with that. Started playing the disk… The Universal globe appeared nice and smooth HD-DVD logos and trailers appeared smooth. HD-DVD menus look good and function well. At this point my interest is starting to peak. Selected play from the menu. I then watched about the first 5 minutes King Kong…which I have probably seen about a thousand times by now, so far perfect, not skip or a shudder. OK…now it’s time to break it, went right for the navigation slider bar across the bottom I slid the bar about ¾ to the end of the disk it jump to chapter fine. I slid the bar from one end to the other, it jumped perfectly to the point where I told it to go and very quickly…Ok let’s try chapter select: the toolbar across the bottom has a cool button that makes the HD-DVD menu appear instantly. The menu popped out used the keyboard to select a chapter, I selected several chapters and it performed absolutely perfect. I only have a few HD-DVD’s and my copy of MI3 was loaned out to a friend so about the only other disk I had was “Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas” threw it in the Xbox drive and the same thing, I cannot make the thing crash, sputter or spit, it’s as stable as any DVD setup box I have ever used and about 1000 times faster the my Gen 1 Toshiba HD-DVD player.

Now the real question, how will it work with Blu-ray. Well tune in a little bit later this evening and I will let you know.
Mike

MikeEby · Joined: 24 Jun 2007 Posts: 5238 Location: Osceola, Indiana

Very bad results!

After the excitement I had with Arcsoft on my notebook I was hyped up. Well not anymore! On my HTPC the thing is a POS, even with HD-DVD’s. Very image choppy on both Blu-ray and HD-DVD.
Now the real question, why did it work so well on my notebook?

1. The notebook was virgin. It had no DVD player software ever installed before Arcsoft.
2. Arcsoft doesn’t play well with the LG combo drive.
3. Arcsoft doesn’t play well with the Realtek onboard sound card.
4. Arcsoft doesn’t like my Powerstrip custom timings.

Any other ideas?

I have a new Asus Maximus Formula motherboard, Q6600 CPU & Asus-ATI 3850-512DDR on order, that will be in Friday, I plan wiping out and starting from scratch my HTPC anyway over the weekend, so I will probably start with loading Arcsoft on a clean box just to see how it performs. After seeing how well it worked on the notebook I think this player has some real possibilities, it’s just matter of finding the right combination that will allow it work well.

You guys have sparked my curiosity on gaming hens the ATI 3850. The Asus card comes with some bundled software called “Company of Heroes-Opposing Fronts” is it any good?

Will see how goes I haven’t played a video game in probably 15-20 years…Have they changed much from Pac-man?

Mike

**AnalogRocks** · Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 4:53 am Post subject:

MikeEby · Joined: 24 Jun 2007 Posts: 5238 Location: Osceola, Indiana

ecrabb · Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 6:05 am Post subject:

Mike, I think you realize AR was being sarcastic... but, seriously - if you haven't played games for a long time, the new stuff will blow your mind. Some of these newer first person shooter war games are so realistic, it's unbelievable. The graphics are just jaw-dropping. I'm a console guy myself...On the big screen with the lights off and sound cranked, feet up in my recliner, stuff like Halo 3 and Call of Duty is just freaky. Amazing surround effects, super-immersive gorgeous graphics. I haven't seen Company of Heroes, but it looks pretty good.

I also play a racing game on the 360 called Forza Motorsports. Crank the sound up, pick out a Z06 or a Ferrari, and hammer around the Nuhrburgring or Road Atlanta at 195MPH. It's truly awesome. I race with a buddy of mine on Live whenever we have the time - it's a riot.

SC